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Author Topic: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible  (Read 18757 times)

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Offline forlorn

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Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
« Reply #75 on: August 27, 2018, 12:25:58 PM »
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  • A canonization 1) does not invoke apostolic authority, 2) does not declare that it's a matter of faith to be believed by all, 3) does not specify the penalty for non-compliance.
    "For the honour of the blessed Trinity, the exaltation of the Catholic faith and the increase of the Christian life, (1)by the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ and of the holy Apostles Peter and Paul and our own, after due deliberation and frequent prayer for divine assistance, and having sought the counsel of many of our brother bishops, we declare and define blessed John XXII and John Paul II to be saints, and we enrol them among the saints, decreeing that they are to be (2+3)venerated as (2)such by the whole Church, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

    1) Yes it does. It says it's done by the authority of St. Peter, as well as the authority granted by Christ.
    2) It does. Veneration is a matter of faith and it clearly says "the whole Church".
    3) We are to give religious submission to all the Pope's Magisterium and decisions on matters of faith and belief(except where it contradicts dogma but canonisations can't do that). 

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #76 on: August 27, 2018, 12:30:40 PM »
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    The canonizations of a saint is a liturgical matter and thus, intrinsically connected with the Church mission of safeguarding the Sacred Worship. An error in it would amount to a Church defection in this Sacred Mission, and therefore, would completely compromise her mark of holiness

    The liturgy is composed of both Divine and human elements, therefore not all errors are as compromising as you think.  The fact that the Church has, over time, added, subtracted and improved the HUMAN, non-essential elements of the mass/liturgy shows that such things as the calendar of the saints, certain rubrics, etc can be changed.  If they can be changed, therefore, they are part of the human element.  A saint's feast day is NOT ESSENTIAL to the mass itself, so any error in the liturgical calendar related to saints is not a "compromise of Her holiness". 

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    Could the holiness of the Church's sacraments be preserved if the sacrifice of the Mass was offered in memory of men and women who were not actually in heaven? 

    The mass is offered everyday for the intentions of dead catholics who may or may not be in heaven.  If a mistake were made in the area of a saint, it wouldn't be a dogma-denying event.

    The point is not to question the canonizations of the past, but only those of the 1960s onward.  The canonization of a saint USED to be the culmination of a decades/centuries long process.  It was a final step of many.  Nowadays, with the investigative/'devil's advocate' step trimmed down to nothingness and the proof of miracles being questioned, it is fair to say that the entire canonization process is in question. 

    The fact that in former times, multiple miracles were necessary, all being investigated ad nauseum, shows the Church's patience and methodical nature in this declaration.  Nowadays, this patience and methodical approach doesn't exist.  Comparing the 2 different processes (pre V2 vs post V2) is comparing apples to oranges.  If you can't admit they are different, then you're dishonest.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #77 on: August 27, 2018, 12:33:53 PM »
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    3) We are to give religious submission to all the Pope's Magisterium and decisions on matters of faith and belief(except where it contradicts dogma but canonisations can't do that).
    Religious submission is "conditional" submission.  It is NOT the same as "unconditional, assent of faith" (which is required for dogmas).  BIG, HUGE, GIGANTIC difference.

    I'm fine with giving "conditional" assent to V2 as well as all of their magisterium.  To date, they have not required anyone's FULL, UNCONDITIONAL assent, so we are free to ask questions, and ask for clarifications.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #78 on: August 27, 2018, 12:38:33 PM »
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    I guess that all those idiot theologians (including St. Thomas Aquinas) ... and virtually all theologians ... simply failed to notice the brilliant points you make.  I'll nominate you for Doctor-hood if you pass away before me.
    You have completely ignored the fact that theologians prior to V1 held different "levels" of infallibility, because they understood that there were different levels of "assent" required by different papal actions.  Post V1, we can no longer describe infallibility as having different "levels".  It either is, or it isn't.

    So anyone quoting a theologian pre-V1 has to interpret their quotes accordingly.  Just as we would have to interpret St Thomas' thoughts on the immaculate conception as being deficient, in light of the Church's dogmatic statement.

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #79 on: August 27, 2018, 12:55:41 PM »
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  • You have completely ignored the fact that theologians prior to V1 held different "levels" of infallibility, because they understood that there were different levels of "assent" required by different papal actions.  Post V1, we can no longer describe infallibility as having different "levels".  It either is, or it isn't.

    So anyone quoting a theologian pre-V1 has to interpret their quotes accordingly.  Just as we would have to interpret St Thomas' thoughts on the immaculate conception as being deficient, in light of the Church's dogmatic statement.
    There was never such a thing as a different level of infallibility. Infallibility means without error, mistake, etc. There's no such thing as partial or lesser infallibility, that's just called fallibility. The theological notes did not comment on "how" infallible something was, as there are no degrees of infallibility, but rather how much assent/submission a Catholic had to give. Every theologian has always believed canonisations to be infallible, all they've disagreed on is whether or not it's a mortal sin if a Catholic rejects that.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #80 on: August 27, 2018, 01:05:57 PM »
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    Incorrect. Those 4 conditions are for Papal Infallibility. The Universal Magisterium is also small 'i' infallible. There have been NO theologians who believed canonisations weren't infallible. It's always been universally held belief that they are.
    The Magisterium is infallible when what they are teaching is UNIVERSAL, meaning that it agrees with Apostolic teaching which has been UNIVERSALLY (i.e. always) held throughout the ages.

    1.  The declaration that St Padre Pio is in heaven cannot be a universal teaching because St Padre Pio hasn't been held a saint since apostolic times.  Ergo, it's not part of the deposit of faith, or Tradition, or Scripture.  Ergo, it is part of the human element of the Church, which is not protected by infallibility.

    2.  The fact that the Church required miracles, and a long, long process to determine canonizations proves that they are not infallible.  If they were infallible, then a miracle is unnecessary, since the pope can use his infallible powers to declare it is so.  The pope doesn't need a miracle before he issues dogmatic definitions in either a council or outside one (i.e. immaculate conception and assumption were declared outside of councils).  Ergo, the miralces are required as a proof FROM HEAVEN that the canonization is legit.  In other words, the pope does not (and cannot) declare them by APOSTOLIC authority, because they aren't a matter of faith/morals.  Only these matters are covered by Apostolic authority because this only deals with Tradition/Scripture which are TEACHINGS, and canonizations have nothing to do with teachings.

    3.  Theologians may have agreed that canonizations were infallible, but their definition of infallible is different than V1's defintion.  Prior theologians said there were different levels of infallibility.  They DID NOT say that canonizations were "of the faith" (i.e. dogmatic).  V1 said that infalliblity only dealt with matters "of the faith".  Ergo, what theologians of the past called infallibility is no longer the TRUE definition of infallibility.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #81 on: August 27, 2018, 01:10:45 PM »
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    There was never such a thing as a different level of infallibility. Infallibility means without error, mistake, etc. There's no such thing as partial or lesser infallibility, that's just called fallibility. The theological notes did not comment on "how" infallible something was, as there are no degrees of infallibility, but rather how much assent/submission a Catholic had to give. Every theologian has always believed canonisations to be infallible, all they've disagreed on is whether or not it's a mortal sin if a Catholic rejects that.

    Page 1 of this thread, opening post.  Yes, there are different levels of infallibility.  The highest is "de fide" (i.e. of the faith) and lowest is "sententia communis" (common opinion of theologians).



    The initial point that needs to be made in this discussion is that the infallibility of canonisations is not taught by the magisterium of the Church. Belief in their infallibility is not therefore required of Catholics. This point is agreed on by theologians, as can be illustrated by the teaching of a standard manual of theology; van Noort, Castelot and Murphy's Dogmatic Theology vol. II: Christ's Church (Cork: Mercier Press, 1958). These authors follow the traditional and very important practice of attaching a theological note to every thesis that they advance. These notes specify the degree of authority possessed by each thesis, and the corresponding obligation to believe that is laid upon Catholics. The highest note is 'de fide': it belongs to propositions that must be believed with the assent of theological faith, and that cannot be knowingly and pertinaciously rejected without committing the sin of heresy. The lowest note is 'sententia communis', which, as Ludwig Ott states, means 'doctrine which in itself belongs to the field of free opinions, but which is accepted by theologians generally' (Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, 6th ed. (St. Louis, Mo.: Herder, 1964), p. 10).


    Van Noort, Castelot, and Murphy specify that the canonisations in question are the final and definitive decrees by which the supreme pontiff declares that someone has been admitted to heaven and is to be venerated by everyone. The decree of authority that they attribute to the claim that such canonisations are infallible is 'sententia communis', the common opinion of theologians (van Noort, Castelot and Murphy, p. 117). Their evaluation of the authority of this claim is the more significant because they themselves agree with the assertion that such canonisations are infallible. There can thus be no intention on their part of minimising the authority of a claim with which they disagree. The assertion that canonisations are infallible thus belongs to the field of free opinions. It is not one that Catholics have an obligation to accept.

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #82 on: August 27, 2018, 01:14:41 PM »
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  • Page 1 of this thread, opening post.  Yes, there are different levels of infallibility.  The highest is "de fide" (i.e. of the faith) and lowest is "sententia communis" (common opinion of theologians).
    Those are not levels of infallibility, like I already explained. Those indict the level of assent or submission required from the laymen. Sententia communis means a layman may freely reject it, de fide means a layman commits a mortal sin and heresy by knowingly rejecting it. 


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #83 on: August 27, 2018, 01:20:18 PM »
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  • Well, strictly speaking, if one is not obligated to accept a fact, and if one is able to question it, and if one is able to potentially reject it, then it's not infallible.  That's how I see it.

    If we use your definition, then I can accept that canonizations only require conditional assent.  Meaning that I may conditionally accept and respectfully question the canonizations of JPII and John XXIII and others.  Since facts continue to come to light regarding the pedo abuse scandals, it is highly likely that JPII's canonization is questionable and may be overturned by a future pope.

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #84 on: August 27, 2018, 02:23:52 PM »
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  • Well, strictly speaking, if one is not obligated to accept a fact, and if one is able to question it, and if one is able to potentially reject it, then it's not infallible.  That's how I see it.
    How so? Just because someone doesn't believe something doesn't mean it's not true, even if they aren't punished for their lack of belief. Belief in Papal Infallibility wasn't always de fide either, but does that mean Papal Infallibility only started to exist the moment Vatican I declared it? The Immaculate Conception wasn't always de fide, but that doesn't mean it wasn't always true. 

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #85 on: August 27, 2018, 03:20:33 PM »
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    Belief in Papal Infallibility wasn't always de fide either, but does that mean Papal Infallibility only started to exist the moment Vatican I declared it?
    Belief in papal infallibility is from Apostolic times and is part of Tradition and arguably, from Scripture.  Something can only be "de fide" if it first existed at the time of the Apostles.  Infallibility is just the pope declaring "what has always been taught" though he may add and clarify certain points which, til that time, had been debated.

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    The Immaculate Conception wasn't always de fide, but that doesn't mean it wasn't always true.
    No, the Immaculate Conception has always been "de fide" as evidenced by the centuries old feast day of the Church, celebrating it on Dec 8th.  Those theologians who debated it, did not debate it's existance or its substance, but the finer details of the dogma.

    Quote
    Just because someone doesn't believe something doesn't mean it's not true, even if they aren't punished for their lack of belief.
    Agree.  My point is that the "common understanding" of infallibility is as Vatican I defined it, meaning it's unconditionally "of the faith" and are binding under pain of sin.  Since canonizations are not "of the faith" and only conditionally binding then it's not accurate to say they are infallible, or else you are causing confusion.  You should clarify that they are 'sententia communis'.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #86 on: August 27, 2018, 05:57:36 PM »
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  • So, when last I tuned in this morning, here is what I attempted to say (before getting timed-out):

    1) The premise of the OP is that canonizations as such are not magisterial teaching, and therefore cannot be the object of infallibility (and the consequent obligation for all the faithful to assent to them).

    2) It was shown that Van Noort assigned to canonizations the lowest of theological notes, according to which, as Fr. Ott explained, free debate is certainly allowed.

    3) Moreover, Pope Benedict XIV (creator of the modern canonization process which had been in place until the "revised" post-conciliar canonization process abrogated it), who, in his capacity of private doctor, opined that canonizations were infallible, acknowledged nevertheless (in the quote I provided by Fr. Hunwicke) that:

    "plures magni nominis auctores [i.e., "Many great named authors"] deny that an act of canonisation is de fide."  

    Cajetan would be foremost among them.

    4) Cantarella, Loudismouth, and others supplied well known quotations from various catechisms and saints attesting in favor of infallibility, and I do not deny that for the last few hundred years, their opinion -as Van Noort acknowledges- is in the overwhelming majority (at least until recently).

    5) Forced to explain how it could be that canonizations were infallible, yet theologians were allowed to publish works (receiving the Imprimater and Nihil Obstat) which contested that belief, the infallibilists had no answer.

    6) I supplied it for them in the Fr. Hunwicke article just referenced (and found on p. 4 of this thread): The scope of infallibility was curtailed with the dogmatic definition at Vatican I, and consequently, some things previously thought to be infallible were shown not to be, as one of the conditions V1 required was that the object of infallibility be a matter of faith and morals.

    7) But it is clear that the candidates for sainthood are not part of the divine revelation; they are not contained in the deposit of faith, either in scripture (unless we are speaking of biblical saints) or tradition, neither implicitly, nor explicitly.

    8> As such, canonizations cannot be the object of infallibility, since the "faith" is precisely the totality scripture and tradition; nothing more, nothing less.

    Consequently, it is ignorance which has led to a caustic anathema by the infallibilists, but in fact, they are wrong:

    They have not understood the impact of Vatican I against the opinions of the saints, popes, and doctors whose positions, at lest on this precise matter, have been made obsolete by events transpiring after their own lifetimes (and fiercely debated within their own).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #87 on: August 27, 2018, 06:12:48 PM »
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  • So, when last I tuned in this morning, here is what I attempted to say (before getting timed-out):

    1) The premise of the OP is that canonizations as such are not magisterial teaching, and therefore cannot be the object of infallibility (and the consequent obligation for all the faithful to assent to them).

    2) It was shown that Van Noort assigned to canonizations the lowest of theological notes, according to which, as Fr. Ott explained, free debate is certainly allowed.

    3) Moreover, Pope Benedict XIV (creator of the modern canonization process which had been in place until the "revised" post-conciliar canonization process abrogated it), who, in his capacity of private doctor, opined that canonizations were infallible, acknowledged nevertheless (in the quote I provided by Fr. Hunwicke) that:

    "plures magni nominis auctores [i.e., "Many great named authors"] deny that an act of canonisation is de fide."  

    Cajetan would be foremost among them.

    4) Cantarella, Loudismouth, and others supplied well known quotations from various catechisms and saints attesting in favor of infallibility, and I do not deny that for the last few hundred years, their opinion -as Van Noort acknowledges- is in the overwhelming majority (at least until recently).

    5) Forced to explain how it could be that canonizations were infallible, yet theologians were allowed to publish works (receiving the Imprimater and Nihil Obstat) which contested that belief, the infallibilists had no answer.

    6) I supplied it for them in the Fr. Hunwicke article just referenced (and found on p. 4 of this thread): The scope of infallibility was curtailed with the dogmatic definition at Vatican I, and consequently, some things previously thought to be infallible were shown not to be, as one of the conditions V1 required was that the object of infallibility be a matter of faith and morals.

    7) But it is clear that the candidates for sainthood are not part of the divine revelation; they are not contained in the deposit of faith, either in scripture (unless we are speaking of biblical saints) or tradition, neither implicitly, nor explicitly.

    8> As such, canonizations cannot be the object of infallibility, since the "faith" is precisely the totality scripture and tradition; nothing more, nothing less.

    Consequently, it is ignorance which has led to a caustic anathema by the infallibilists, but in fact, they are wrong:

    They have not understood the impact of Vatican I against the opinions of the saints, popes, and doctors whose positions, at lest on this precise matter, have been made obsolete by events transpiring after their own lifetimes (and fiercely debated within their own).

    On the subject of canonizations not meeting the conditions laid out by Vatican I, Dr. Roberto de Mattei (in this CFN interview) explains:

    "CFN: And yet, the majority of theologians, especially the surest, those of the so-called “Roman School” support the infallibility of canonizations.

    RDM: Infallibility of canonizations is not a dogma of the Faith, it is the opinion of a majority of theologians, above all after Benedict XIV, who expressed it moreover as a private doctor and not as Sovereign Pontiff. As far as the “Roman School” is concerned, the most eminent representative of this theological school, living today, is Msgr. Brunero Gherardini. And Msgr. Gherardini expressed in the review Divinitas directed by him, all of his doubts on the infallibility of canonizations.

    I know in Rome, distinguished theologians and canonists, disciples of another illustrious representative of the Roman School, Msgr. Antonio Piolanti, these harbor the same doubts as Msgr. Gherardini. They hold that canonizations do not fulfill the conditions laid down by Vatican I to guarantee a papal act’s infallibility. The judgment of canonization is not infallible in itself, because it lacks the conditions for infallibility, starting from the fact the canonization does not have as its direct or explicit aim, a truth of the Faith or morals contained in Revelation, but only a fact indirectly connected with dogma, without being properly-speaking a “dogmatic fact.

    The field of faith and morals is broad, because it contains all of Christian doctrine, speculative and practical, human belief and action, but a distinction is necessary. A dogmatic definition can never involve the definition of a new doctrine in the field of faith and morals. The pope can only make explicit that which is implicit in faith and morals, and is handed down by the Tradition of the Church. That which the popes define must be contained in the Scriptures and in Tradition, and it is this which assures the infallibility of the act."

    Entire interview here: http://sspx.org/en/news-events/news/canonizations-not-always-infallible-3962
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #88 on: August 27, 2018, 07:19:31 PM »
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  • From the OP:

    Quote
    The lack of infallibility does not of course mean that the person canonised is not a saint. Padre Pio, for example, was canonised under the seriously flawed process of canonisation introduced by John Paul II in 1983, but that does not mean that he is not a saint or that he should not be venerated as such. A canonisation would seem to be actually erroneous when the balance of probabilities, given the full evidence about the process of canonisation and the life of the person canonised, is very strongly in favour of the process of canonisation having been seriously flawed, and also of the person canonised not having exhibited heroic virtue, but instead to have committed serious sins that were not expiated by some heroic penance. The judgment that a given canonisation is erroneous of course requires very substantial, thorough, objective and intelligent investigation, and no such judgments will be ventured in this article.

    In other words, individual catholics get to "pick and choose" what saints they consider worthy of the title, and which ones they do not; relying solely upon their own whim, regardless of what the Holy See proposes.

    I am free to reject Mother Teresa, for instance; but adhere to Padre Pio, just because I perceive "heroic virtue" in the later; but not the former. I am not talking about the act of veneration itself (which may be subjective); but just the internal assent that the person is in Heaven because the Church told me so.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #89 on: August 27, 2018, 07:39:07 PM »
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  • From the OP:

    In other words, individual catholics get to "pick and choose" what saints they consider worthy of the title, and which ones they do not; relying solely upon their own whim, regardless of what the Holy See proposes.

    I am free to reject Mother Teresa, for instance; but adhere to Padre Pio, just because I perceive "heroic virtue" in the later; but not the former. I am not talking about the act of veneration itself (which may be subjective); but just the internal assent that the person is in Heaven because the Church told me so.

    Yes.

    Just like you are free to accept or reject Fatima:

    Neither can be the object of a binding obligation on Catholics unless, in the case of canonization, it is rooted in scripture or tradition (i.e., "faith," per Vatican I), as would be the case with the biblical saints.

    A slightly less certain canonization would be one which was truly a dogmatic fact, such as the sanctity of St. Jerome (who, were we to call into question his sanctity, we might call into question the honesty of his translation of the Vulgate).  Etc.

    Then there are all the rest of the canonizations, which are not rooted in divine revelation, nor even indirectly so (as in the case of St. Jerome), which could not be obligatory.

    You will need to warm up to this fact.

    I realize the thought is new for you.

    But I would imagine a sedevacantist, with their inflated views of what Vatican I said, would take this strictly to heart (even though it runs directly contrary to your primary principle of everything being infallible).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."