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Author Topic: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible  (Read 18675 times)

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Offline forlorn

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Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
« Reply #60 on: August 27, 2018, 06:29:04 AM »
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  • Great argument.
    I made my argument, that 1870 didn't change the meaning of the word infallible and that when theologians called something infallible before that they still meant infallible. Yes infallibility is not the same as Papal Infallibility, but when they said something is infallible they still meant "incapable of error or being wrong" just as we do today. You moronically tried to argue that somehow infallible didn't mean that before 1870, because you're really desperately clutching at straws to deny the universally held opinion that canonisations are infallible. 

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #61 on: August 27, 2018, 06:51:06 AM »
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  • Lol...way to ignore 5 pages of arguments which refute everything you said, and revert to your Deb from Napoleon Dynamite routine.

    But by that same logic, you have just abandoned your sede position, since all theologians hold the identity of the pope to be dogmatic fact.

    Ps: While you are trying to figure out how to wiggle off the hook of arbitrarily and hypocrisy, please provide quotes from some encyclicals and/or councils teaching canonizations are infallible.  I can’t seem to find any.

    PPS: please also explain how a canonization meets the requirements for infallibility per Vatican 1.

    Ppps: please also explain how something not contained in divine revelation (implicitly or explicitly) can be the object of an infallible declaration, and therefore de fide (and also how such avoids V1’s prohibition on inventing new doctrines, which is exactly what you are arguing when you say canonization is de fide).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #62 on: August 27, 2018, 06:58:47 AM »
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  • But by that same logic, you have just abandoned your sede position, since all theologians hold the identity of the pope to be dogmatic fact.

    Ladislaus and my whole point was that you were being hypocritical with your position. YOU were the one that claimed we must accept BOD as de fide because some theologians said it was, and we just pointed out the hypocrisy in you rejecting the infallibility of canonisation which EVERY theologian taught. You're moronically trying to apply YOUR position to me, when my whole point was that your position was untenable. 

    Ps: While you are trying to figure out how to wiggle off the hook of arbitrarily and hypocrisy,please provide quotes from some encyclicals and/or councils teaching canonizations are infallible.  I can’t seem to find any.

    Already addressed this. The teaching that canonisations are infallible is part of the Universal Magisterium. Find me ANY bishop who EVER disagreed with it. 

    PPS: please also explain how a canonization meets the requirements for infallibility per Vatican 1.

    Already addressed this early on in the thread.

    Ppps: please also explain how something not contained in divine revelation (implicitly or explicitly) can be the object of an infallible declaration, and therefore de fide (and also how such avoids V1’s prohibition on inventing new doctrines, which is exactly what you are arguing when you say canonization is de fide).

    Canonisation being infallible is not a new doctrine, it's something that the entire Church has taught in unison for its whole history. 

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #63 on: August 27, 2018, 07:27:13 AM »
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  • Every statement here is false.

    Made a long response that got timed out or something, so you will have to wait until tonight to be refuted again.

    You have an 8-hour reprieve.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline tdrev123

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #64 on: August 27, 2018, 08:08:12 AM »
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  • Because of those errors of some early Church Fathers, the Church counsels prudence in the study of Patristics.

    These were reasons enough for the Church to discontinue the equipollent canonizations and to introduce the formal processes of beatification and canonization, where a long and severe examination of the writings of a candidate was made before any step was taken. 

    After these formal processes were established, the decrees of canonizations became so secure that they were included in the infallible decisions of the Church. That system ruled the Church from the 16th century until Vatican II (1962-1965), when canonizations were relaxed in an unprecedented way. This happened especially after 1983, when the New Code of Canon Law promulgated by John Paul II eliminated all the rules of those processes. Thenceforth, JPII made his 'factory of saints,' where he declared 1,338 persons 'blessed' and 482 'saints.' 

    This is TIA’s view of canonizations, that from the 16th century until Vatican 2 canonizations were infallible.     After Vatican 2 they are not infallible, before formal canonizations they were not infallible.  Seems logical to me.  


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #65 on: August 27, 2018, 08:12:53 AM »
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  • But the identity of the pope is also a dogmatic fact, therefore we must accept him.

    Again, SeanJohnson demonstrates his inability to apply basic logic to any discussion.  Question is whether the legitimacy of the V2 Popes meet the criteria for having been established as dogmatic fact.  You simply assume this to be true and then draw conclusions from it.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #66 on: August 27, 2018, 08:49:52 AM »
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  • Translation:

    These recent popes are not dogmatic facts, but previous popes were.

    Counter:

    These recent canonizations are not dogmatic facts, but previous canonizations were.

    What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

    :facepalm:

    Firstly, your "Counter" contradicts the article you posted in the OP.  OP argues that no canonizations are dogmatic fact, that they are not infallible in principle ... because they are not matters of faith and morals.  So the "previous canonizations were" completely rejects the points made by the opening post you made.  Which one is it?  Answer: whichever suits your needs at the moment.

    Secondly, the issue is both cases is, once the principles are established, to determine if the particular cases meet the standards set down.  So, for instance, by what criteria do we know the legitimacy of a pope to be dogmatic fact.  Do the V2 popes meet those criteria?  You simply assume that they do and then proceed to layer on other arguments based on your preliminary assumption.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #67 on: August 27, 2018, 08:51:29 AM »
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  • Made a long response that got timed out or something, so you will have to wait until tonight to be refuted again.

    :laugh1:

    sure.

    And the dog ate my homework.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #68 on: August 27, 2018, 08:54:15 AM »
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  • The canonization process doesn’t bind anyone to venerate them under pain of sin and under penalty of denial of the faith.  Therefore, a canonization is not infallible in the highest (ie “de fide”) degree.  

    As usual, the modernist Freemasons are using trickery and legal games to promote their agenda.

    Show me where I commit a sin by denying that JPII was a saint.  Show me where ANY V2 official has claimed such a denial is a sin or heresy.  You won’t find one.

    Just because the pope says “I declare and define” means nothing.  They have to follow the rules set down by Vatican I.  I think that Divine Providence has ordered that we should have Vatican I’s guidelines in these crazy times because God knew that Rome would be infested with wolves in sheep’s clothing.  If these wolves don’t follow the rules, then their rules aren’t valid.  

    There you go again with that idiotic argument that some "V2 official" must explicitly declare that "Pax commits a sin if he does not believe in Religious Liberty" to make it obligatory and binding under pain of sin.  Theologians generally teach that it's a mortal sin to deny truths that are theologically certain, and most most theologians consider the infallibility of canonizations to be theologically certain (and a couple even de fide).

    Also, now there are "degrees" of infallibility?  Either something is infallible or it's not.  You're conflating theological notes (again) with the notion of infallibility.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #69 on: August 27, 2018, 10:01:14 AM »
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  • Quote
    There you go again with that idiotic argument that some "V2 official" must explicitly declare that "Pax commits a sin if he does not believe in Religious Liberty" to make it obligatory and binding under pain of sin.  

    V2's lack of infallibility has been established and also it's lack of "assent of faith".  As long as a catholic conditionally assents, he commits no sin.



    Quote
    Theologians generally teach that it's a mortal sin to deny truths that are theologically certain, and most most theologians consider the infallibility of canonizations to be theologically certain (and a couple even de fide).

    Also, now there are "degrees" of infallibility?  Either something is infallible or it's not.  You're conflating theological notes (again) with the notion of infallibility.

    The same theologians whom you declare consider cononizations to be infallible ALSO made distinctions for "degrees" of infallibility.  This is because they were speculating BEFORE vatican I and before infallibility had been fully defined.

    Ergo, post-Vatican I, no catholic is allowed to "consider" or "speculate" any longer.  The matter is settled.  There are no degrees of infallibility and only those statements which fulfill the 4 conditions are infallible, which canonizations do not.

    ---

    There's a difference to remember between the pope's governing power and his teaching power.  For example, when reading the docuмents of any ecuмenical council, the canons are written differently for items dealing with faith/morals vs governmental/jurisdiction decisions.  In either case, the pope can use "I declare and define" but the implications for each statement depend on what else is contained in the statement.

    For example, all of Trent's teachings on the sacraments and the mass (i.e. matters of Faith/morals) have an "anathema" attached because the Church is telling all her children that such teachings are BINDING and of the faith.  It follows that if a matter has been declared "of the faith" that it is sinful to deny it.  Obviously, the docuмent does not need to specifically say that sin is committed by denying an article of the faith.

    For example:  April 4, 1462 at the Council of Perugia, Pope Leo used the words "declare and define" to settle a debate on usury.  This had NOTHING to do with faith/morals, but with the governance of the Church, which is not a realm that can EVER be "of the faith".

    Further, as was pointed out earlier, the definition on infallibility at V1 is concrete.  It is "of the faith" that only those things which follow the 4 parameters of V1 are "of the faith".  Anything which is outside of these parameters is not "of the faith". 

    That does not mean that the pope's authority is strictly limited to matters "of the faith" or that a catholic can just ignore anything outside of infallibility.  Absolutely not!  As the above example shows, the pope's authority is in areas of faith/morals AND governing matters.  But one must distinguish between papal decisions and papal commands.  The case of the usury debate involved a papal decision.  Those who disobeyed it would've been guilty of disobedience even if no mention of a penalty were present, because the penality is inherent in the relationship of the pope being a superior.

    Yet, in another example, Pope Leo was declaring a decision on the printing of books and he commanded that any books be approved before dissemination.  Such command had the penalty of exommunication.

    So, we can see that papal decisions are not the same as papal commands, which are further not the same as papal teachings.  One cannot assume which kind of papal act is involved based on the subject matter.  No, it is important that one examine each docuмent specifically, to see what the pope is saying specifically and if there is a penalty, and to whom the act applies.  (i.e. in the case of the usury decision, the pope used the phrase "we declare and define" but this only applied to that PARTICULAR city and to no other catholic.  The point is, "declare and define" does NOT necessarily mean that it applies to the whole church, or carries an anathema penalty, etc).

    https://books.google.com/books?id=O9joDQAAQBAJ&pg=PT436&lpg=PT436&dq=%22we+declare+and+define%22+catholic+council&source=bl&ots=ixG1gK2IvT&sig=lsqASwvH4dLTyuVfB4APErGZ928&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj7-Jvuto3dAhVyplkKHVhpDtwQ6AEwBXoECAQQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22we%20declare%20and%20define%22%20catholic%20council&f=false


    ---

    The question is, is it "of the faith" that one believe that person A is a saint?  No, I don't think so.  Why would it be?  The doctrine of the 'Communion of the Saints' is totally separate from the question of "who makes up the communion of the saints?"  

    Secondly, is a canonization a DECISION or a COMMAND or a TEACHING?  All 3 of these areas use a different kind of papal authority, because the decision can apply to different people and the penalities can also vary.

    A canonization 1) does not invoke apostolic authority, 2) does not declare that it's a matter of faith to be believed by all, 3) does not specify the penalty for non-compliance.

    Therefore, we must presume that it is not a teaching, nor is it a command but only a papal decision.  This does not mean that a papal decision can be avoided or ignored lightly, only that it's acceptance is not infallible, nor is the subject matter of a salvific nature.

    In Orthodox times, surely I could be accused of "splitting hairs" and of being a disturbor of the peace.  But in our crazy, modernistic, freemasonic times, when we KNOW that rome has been infiltrated, such close examination of the minor details is necessary.  We must be as wise as the serpents who are trying to destroy the Church.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #70 on: August 27, 2018, 11:41:05 AM »
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  • Quote
    The question is, is it "of the faith" that one believe that person A is a saint?  No, I don't think so.  Why would it be?  The doctrine of the 'Communion of the Saints' is totally separate from the question of "who makes up the communion of the saints?"  

    Secondly, is a canonization a DECISION or a COMMAND or a TEACHING?  All 3 of these areas use a different kind of papal authority, because the decision can apply to different people and the penalities can also vary.

    A canonization 1) does not invoke apostolic authority, 2) does not declare that it's a matter of faith to be believed by all, 3) does not specify the penalty for non-compliance.

    Therefore, we must presume that it is not a teaching, nor is it a command but only a papal decision.  This does not mean that a papal decision can be avoided or ignored lightly, only that it's acceptance is not infallible, nor is the subject matter of a salvific nature.

    In Orthodox times, surely I could be accused of "splitting hairs" and of being a disturbor of the peace.  But in our crazy, modernistic, freemasonic times, when we KNOW that rome has been infiltrated, such close examination of the minor details is necessary.  We must be as wise as the serpents who are trying to destroy the Church.

    The canonizations of a saint is a liturgical matter and thus, intrinsically connected with the Church mission of safeguarding the Sacred Worship. An error in it would amount to a Church defection in this Sacred Mission, and therefore, would completely compromise her mark of holiness

    Could the holiness of the Church's sacraments be preserved if the sacrifice of the Mass was offered in memory of men and women who were not actually in heaven? 

    Quote
    Canonizations must be considered infallible teachings of the Church's Magisterium because: 

    (1) their declarations are an extension of the infallibility of the Roman Pontiff due to their intimate connection with revealed dogma and the difficulties they would mire us in if they were not theologically certain, and

    (2) because of their connection to the sacrifice of the Mass, which is always holy and pure, inasmuch as if canonizations could be errant it would do damage to the intrinsic holiness of the sacrifice of the Mass, something that could not occur without imperiling the holiness of the Church's sacraments, and because 

    3) the Church's failure to honor the saints of other Christian communions shows that the Church regards them as somewhat dubious, which sheds light on the truth that her certainty about the blessedness of her own saints is not in any way dubious.

    From http://www.unamsanctamcatholicam.com/theology/81-theology/74-infallability-of-canonizations.html


    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #71 on: August 27, 2018, 11:55:57 AM »
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  • Because of those errors of some early Church Fathers, the Church counsels prudence in the study of Patristics.

    These were reasons enough for the Church to discontinue the equipollent canonizations and to introduce the formal processes of beatification and canonization, where a long and severe examination of the writings of a candidate was made before any step was taken.

    After these formal processes were established, the decrees of canonizations became so secure that they were included in the infallible decisions of the Church. That system ruled the Church from the 16th century until Vatican II (1962-1965), when canonizations were relaxed in an unprecedented way. This happened especially after 1983, when the New Code of Canon Law promulgated by John Paul II eliminated all the rules of those processes. Thenceforth, JPII made his 'factory of saints,' where he declared 1,338 persons 'blessed' and 482 'saints.'

    This is TIA’s view of canonizations, that from the 16th century until Vatican 2 canonizations were infallible.     After Vatican 2 they are not infallible, before formal canonizations they were not infallible.  Seems logical to me.  

    The infallibility is not linked to the processes or methods used; but to the final Papal Act of Canonization.  

    You would have to demonstrate then, how the actual Decree of Canonization is different (starting with Paul VI).
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #72 on: August 27, 2018, 11:56:44 AM »
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  • A canonization 1) does not invoke apostolic authority, 2) does not declare that it's a matter of faith to be believed by all, 3) does not specify the penalty for non-compliance.

    Therefore, we must presume that it is not a teaching, nor is it a command but only a papal decision.  This does not mean that a papal decision can be avoided or ignored lightly, only that it's acceptance is not infallible ...

    I guess that all those idiot theologians (including St. Thomas Aquinas) ... and virtually all theologians ... simply failed to notice the brilliant points you make.  I'll nominate you for Doctor-hood if you pass away before me.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #73 on: August 27, 2018, 11:57:54 AM »
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  • The infallibility is not linked to the processes or methods but to the final Papal Act of Canonization.  

    No, it's not.  This is a protection of the Holy Spirit for the Church and is not dependent upon the prudence (or lack thereof) of men.

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #74 on: August 27, 2018, 12:02:24 PM »
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  • There are no degrees of infallibility and only those statements which fulfill the 4 conditions are infallible, which canonizations do not.
    Incorrect. Those 4 conditions are for Papal Infallibility. The Universal Magisterium is also small 'i' infallible. There have been NO theologians who believed canonisations weren't infallible. It's always been universally held belief that they are.