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Author Topic: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible  (Read 18683 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
« Reply #300 on: September 02, 2018, 01:47:26 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on September 02, 2018, 12:33:30 PM
    Certainly trads will have (correctly imo) hypothesized that they were canonized to further aid the enemy's futile efforts to destroy the Church, yet trads worth the label still have those last rites received by both popes to contend with.  

    #1) Wojtyla received the Anointing of the Sick, not traditional Last Rites.

    #2) these do not save an unrepentant heretic or sinner, so it's neither here nor there.  Receiving Last Rites is no guarantee of salvation.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #301 on: September 02, 2018, 04:51:04 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on September 02, 2018, 01:47:26 PM
    #1) Wojtyla received the Anointing of the Sick, not traditional Last Rites.

    #2) these do not save an unrepentant heretic or sinner, so it's neither here nor there.  Receiving Last Rites is no guarantee of salvation.
    #1) Pope John XXIII received the traditional Last Rites, not the Anointing of the Sick which was not yet invented at that time. Interestingly enough, I have only read that JP2 received the Last Rites, not the Anointing of the sick.

    #2) A reason to believe that Pope John XXIII repented, is that he requested the Last Rites. I cannot find where JP2 requested them, but he did receive them - and no, there is no guarantee that receiving the Last Rites guarantee salvation, but that IS the reason God made them a sacrament and it is only with faith that we believe they achieve their purpose.

    If we have the certainty of faith and believe that the sacraments of Baptism remits all sin, Matrimony joins man and wife, Penance forgives sins etc., then it is with that exact same certainty of faith we must believe that the Last Rites, as Trent taught, washes away sins and the vestiges of sin and prepares us for entrance into heaven.
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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #302 on: September 03, 2018, 02:35:01 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on September 02, 2018, 04:51:04 PM
    #1) Pope John XXIII received the traditional Last Rites, not the Anointing of the Sick which was not yet invented at that time. Interestingly enough, I have only read that JP2 received the Last Rites, not the Anointing of the sick.

    #2) A reason to believe that Pope John XXIII repented, is that he requested the Last Rites. I cannot find where JP2 requested them, but he did receive them - and no, there is no guarantee that receiving the Last Rites guarantee salvation, but that IS the reason God made them a sacrament and it is only with faith that we believe they achieve their purpose.

    If we have the certainty of faith and believe that the sacraments of Baptism remits all sin, Matrimony joins man and wife, Penance forgives sins etc., then it is with that exact same certainty of faith we must believe that the Last Rites, as Trent taught, washes away sins and the vestiges of sin and prepares us for entrance into heaven.
    #1) Last Rites isn't the official name of the traditional Sacrament, so it can refer to either the old or the new rite. 

    And of course Extreme Unction will absolve you IF you are truly contrite and repentant, but seeing as John XXIII and JPII made no attempts to inform the world of their errors or reverse the damage they did to the Church, we've little reason to believe that. Although, to be fair, I have heard rumours that John XXIII asked for Vatican 2 to be called off on his death-bed, but I've seen no evidence for that thus far.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #303 on: September 03, 2018, 02:47:18 PM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on September 03, 2018, 02:35:01 PM
    Although, to be fair, I have heard rumours that John XXIII asked for Vatican 2 to be called off on his death-bed, but I've seen no evidence for that thus far.

    Malachi Martin said that J23 was shouting "Stop the Council!" on his deathbed.  Everything that comes from Martin needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt.
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    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #304 on: September 03, 2018, 02:49:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on September 03, 2018, 02:47:18 PM
    Malachi Martin said that J23 was shouting "Stop the Council!" on his deathbed.  Everything that comes from Martin needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt.
    I wouldn't even believe that Martin was there.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #305 on: September 03, 2018, 04:00:21 PM »
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    • Quote from: Struthio on September 03, 2018, 02:49:24 PM
    I wouldn't even believe that Martin was there.

    I don't think he claimed to have been there, just to have heard it from some inside source who was.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #306 on: October 15, 2018, 10:11:48 AM »
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    • A very interesting article by a novus ordo-ite, which challenges the authority of canonizations.

    https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2018/08/the-authority-of-canonisations-do-all.html

    We have therefore arrived at an even more narrowly defined conclusion than that suggested at the beginning of this paper. We need not hold that the canonisations of John XXIII and John Paul II were infallible, because the conditions needed for such infallibility were not present. Their canonisations are not connected to any doctrine of the faith, they were not the result of a devotion that is central to the life of the Church, and they were not the product of careful and rigorous examination. But we need not exclude all canonisations whatsoever from the charism of infallibility; we can still argue that those canonisations that followed the rigorous procedure of former centuries benefited from this charism. Thus although the conclusion of our inquiry is narrower than anticipated, its lesson is broader. That lesson tells us that a return to the former approach to canonisation would mean recovering the guidance of the Holy Spirit in an area of great import for the Church.


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    This article challenges the canonization of Paul VI specifically.

    https://onepeterfive.com/paul-vi-not-saint/

    Practical consequences
    Given the foregoing, what are the practical consequences for clergy, religious, and laity who doubt the validity of this canonization?

    This topic may deserve a separate fuller treatment, but briefly, I would say that anyone with such a doubt or difficulty should not pray to Paul VI, should not invoke him publicly in prayer, should not respond to such invocation, should not offer a Mass in his honor or attend a Mass in his honor, and should not comply with or financially support efforts to promote his artificial “cultus.” On the contrary, it would be advisable to remain silent and, if circuмstances permit and prudence dictates, to help other Catholics to see the real problems this canonization raises, as well as other beatifications and canonizations that may have run afoul of Catholic principles.

    We are all obliged to pray for the salvation of the Holy Father and for the liberty and exaltation of our Holy Mother the Church on Earth. This intention would implicitly include a petition that the papacy, the Roman Curia, the Congregation for the Causes of Saints, and the very process of beatification and canonization all be reformed in due season, so that they may better serve the needs of Christ’s faithful and give glory to Almighty God, who is “wondrous in His saints” (Ps 67:36).
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #307 on: October 15, 2018, 10:43:16 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on October 15, 2018, 10:11:48 AM
    A very interesting article by a novus ordo-ite, which challenges the authority of canonizations.

    Ah, yes, getting desperate again after the "canonization" of Montini?

    Thanks for posting this Novus Ordite opinion, but I'll stick with St. Thomas and the universal consensus among theologians who, according to Catholic Encyclopedia, ALL agree that canonizations are infallible ... differing only on the theological note to assign this teaching.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #308 on: October 15, 2018, 11:17:12 AM »
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    Thanks for posting this Novus Ordite opinion, but I'll stick with St. Thomas and the universal consensus among theologians who, according to Catholic Encyclopedia, ALL agree that canonizations are infallible ... differing only on the theological note to assign this teaching.
    The point is, the new process is not the same as the one St Thomas was commenting on.  So, it's an apples-oranges comparison.

    Secondly, I don't know why you're saying I'm "desperate" since if you re-read this thread (or just a few pages back) I agreed with you that a canonization is strict in its definition that the person is in heaven only, and not a condoning of his life.  So, even if this novus ordo guy is wrong, it still stands that a Paul VI canonzation means little, in the grand scheme of things.  With the new process, the Church has watered-down the meaning so that a life-long prostitute who converted on her deathbed could be canonized without scandal.

    If you can't admit that 1) the processes are different, so previous Saint opinions aren't necessarily applicable and 2) the new process opens the door for discussion/gray area/doubt, then you're not honest.
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    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #309 on: October 15, 2018, 11:18:42 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on October 15, 2018, 10:43:16 AM
    Ah, yes, getting desperate again after the "canonization" of Montini?

    Thanks for posting this Novus Ordite opinion, but I'll stick with St. Thomas and the universal consensus among theologians who, according to Catholic Encyclopedia, ALL agree that canonizations are infallible ... differing only on the theological note to assign this teaching.

    And you do good as every Catholic in good Faith should.

    The excruciating efforts that the SSPX resistors and the like, must engage in, to justify the travesty emanating from the Vatican, have actually become an affront to all Catholic theological principles. It is really a theological slippery slope with no finite end in sight. 

    It's rather pathetic. 
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    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #310 on: October 15, 2018, 11:25:06 AM »
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    The excruciating efforts that the SSPX resistors and the like, must engage in, to justify the travesty emanating from the Vatican, have actually become an affront to all Catholic theological principles. It is really a theological slippery slope with no finite end in sight.
    The Catholic theological principles of canonizations have long been debated and even if you take the majority opinion, they must be accepted with only a "certainty of faith".  The fact of a new, watered-down process just opens the door to more debate.

    You act like a dogma is being questioned, which is not the case.  It's not a settled matter and never has been.
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    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #311 on: October 15, 2018, 11:32:39 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on October 15, 2018, 11:25:06 AM
    The fact of a new, watered-down process just opens the door to more debate.

    The watered-down process is just another indication of the illegitimacy of the Authority promulgating these canonizations. And this Authority in Catholicism rests upon the person of no other, but the Pope.

    It is not the process itself which makes these decrees errors; but the illegitimacy of the conspirators behind it. 
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    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #312 on: October 15, 2018, 11:48:11 AM »
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    • Just your opinion.  Go prove that the process doesn't matter and that the papal decree is the primary cause of canonizations.  If you can show me, then i'll change my opinion.
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    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #313 on: October 15, 2018, 11:59:15 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on October 15, 2018, 11:25:06 AM
    The Catholic theological principles of canonizations have long been debated and even if you take the majority opinion, they must be accepted with only a "certainty of faith".
    Do you accept with the "certainty of Faith" the canonizations of:

    John XXIII
    John Paul II
    Paul VI

    It seems to me you are just not entertaining the possibility of a small error somewhere in these canonization decrees, but you are flat out rejecting them.


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    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #314 on: October 15, 2018, 12:31:20 PM »
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    Do you accept with the "certainty of Faith" the new canonizations?
    If you read this thread, you'll see what I believe.  But this topic is anything but clear, so based on any new information my opinion can change.
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