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Author Topic: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible  (Read 15040 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
« Reply #30 on: August 26, 2018, 04:26:51 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on August 26, 2018, 04:21:32 PM
    Loudismouth-

    Nobody who is psychologically well adjusted has any desire to get into repeated stamina contests with the obsessive-compulsive disordered sedes and Feeneyites.

    Threads running hundreds of pages: WHo has time for that but sedes and Feneeyites?

    Then, when I move on to another topic, the OCD'ers hop onto that thread and derail it to continue the one I left behind (this has happened no fewer than 2 times today alone!).

    I would say your own behavior is to blame for the self-fulfilling prophecy you are creating.

    Again, readers will take note of the fact that SeanJohnson is unable to refute my point that he contradicts himself.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #31 on: August 26, 2018, 04:29:26 PM »
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    • Quote from: MarylandTrad on August 26, 2018, 04:05:19 PM
    Thank you, SJ, for sharing Dr. Lamont's article. It is quite good. It is absolutely devastating for the sedevacantist movement that in 50+ years of the modern popes and their dozens and dozens of encyclicals and other texts, sedevacantists cannot find a single example of them defining anything from the chair that contradicts the deposit of faith. The sedevacanstists cannot point to one example of a modern pope defining anything false concerning the existence of Hell, the Mass, Ecclesiology, the necessity of Church membership for salvation, etc.

    Canonizations are not a part of the public revelation that ended with the death of St. John and they therefore are not of themselves infallible.

    Another R&R who claims that the Church's infallibility is limited to about .5% of the total Magisterial output and that it's possible for 99.5% of the Magisterium (the non-infallible part) to be thoroughly infested with grave error ... basically asserting that the Magisterium itself has become a cesspool of error all in order to defend the likes of Jorge ("the pedophile coverup artist") Bergoglio.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #32 on: August 26, 2018, 04:30:31 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 26, 2018, 04:26:51 PM
    Again, readers will take note of the fact that SeanJohnson is unable to refute my point that he contradicts himself.

    Lol:

    Readers taking note that Loudismouth disregarded my point, and exhibits precisely the OCD behavior I desire to avoid.

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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #33 on: August 26, 2018, 04:33:23 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 26, 2018, 04:29:26 PM
    Another R&R who claims that the Church's infallibility is limited to about .5% of the total Magisterial output and that it's possible for 99.5% of the Magisterium (the non-infallible part) to be thoroughly infested with grave error ... basically asserting that the Magisterium itself has become a cesspool of error all in order to defend the likes of Jorge ("the pedophile coverup artist") Bergoglio.

    I did not see in his post any denial of the infallibility of the UOM.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #34 on: August 26, 2018, 04:45:47 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on August 26, 2018, 04:30:31 PM
    Lol:

    Readers taking note that Loudismouth disregarded my point, and exhibits precisely the OCD behavior I desire to avoid.

    Back to the point.

    Catholic Encyclopedia:
    Quote
    Theologians generally agree as to the fact of papal infallibility in this matter of canonization, but disagree as to the quality of certitude due to a papal decree in such matter. In the opinion of some it is of faith; others hold that to refuse assent to such a judgment of the Holy See would be both impious and rash, as Francisco Suárez; many more (and this is the general view) hold such a pronouncement to be theologically certain, not being of Divine Faith as its purport has not been immediately revealed, nor of ecclesiastical Faith as having thus far not been defined by the Church.

    Based on this, why is it OK for you to reject the "fact of papal infallibility in this matter of canonization"?
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #35 on: August 26, 2018, 04:48:16 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on August 26, 2018, 04:33:23 PM
    I did not see in his post any denial of the infallibility of the UOM.

    Poster's sole argument is that sedevacantism has no merits simply because:
    Quote
    sedevacantists cannot find a single example of them defining anything from the chair that contradicts the deposit of faith. The sedevacanstists cannot point to one example of a modern pope defining anything false concerning the existence of Hell, the Mass, Ecclesiology, the necessity of Church membership for salvation, etc.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #36 on: August 26, 2018, 05:51:25 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 26, 2018, 04:45:47 PM
    Back to the point.

    Catholic Encyclopedia:
    Based on this, why is it OK for you to reject the "fact of papal infallibility in this matter of canonization"?

    The Church doesn't teach it, the theologians do (You know, the same ones who teach the identity of the pope is a dogmatic fact).

    Moreover, if the OP is heretical for denying the per se infallibility of canonizations, then I expect you to post a pic of you burning your Van Noort manual, who taught:

    "Van Noort, Castelot, and Murphy specify that the canonisations in question are the final and definitive decrees by which the supreme pontiff declares that someone has been admitted to heaven and is to be venerated by everyone. The decree of authority that they attribute to the claim that such canonisations are infallible is 'sententia communis', the common opinion of theologians (van Noort, Castelot and Murphy, p. 117)."

    As the OP explained, that level of teaching is far from infallible:

    "The highest note is 'de fide': it belongs to propositions that must be believed with the assent of theological faith, and that cannot be knowingly and pertinaciously rejected without committing the sin of heresy. The lowest note is 'sententia communis', which, as Ludwig Ott states, means 'doctrine which in itself belongs to the field of free opinions, but which is accepted by theologians generally' (Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, 6th ed. (St. Louis, Mo.: Herder, 1964), p. 10)."

    Consequently, if I must hold canonizations infallible because the theologians (not Church) say so, then I will expect you to do so regarding the dogmatic fact of the pope, in order to remain consistent.

    Conversely, if you will allege the identity of the pope is not a dogmatic fact (despite the theologians all saying otherwise), then I should have the freedom to make the same appraisal of canonizations (per Van Noort and Ott).

    Any other response from you will be hypocrisy.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #37 on: August 26, 2018, 06:06:16 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on August 26, 2018, 05:51:25 PM
    The Church doesn't teach it, the theologians do (You know, the same ones who teach the identity of the pope is a dogmatic fact).

    Nowhere does the Church teach that rejection of BoD is heresy, but you claim that Feeneyites are heretics because a couple of theologians say that BoD is de fide.  Consequently, since some theologians teach that infallibility of canonizations is de fide, you are a heretic by your own standards.

    Logic has never been your strength.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #38 on: August 26, 2018, 06:08:43 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on August 26, 2018, 05:51:25 PM
    "Van Noort, Castelot, and Murphy specify that the canonisations in question are the final and definitive decrees by which the supreme pontiff declares that someone has been admitted to heaven and is to be venerated by everyone. The decree of authority that they attribute to the claim that such canonisations are infallible is 'sententia communis', the common opinion of theologians (van Noort, Castelot and Murphy, p. 117)."

    Yeah, yeah, we know that some theologians hold it to be of a lesser note than heresy to deny it.  That's admitted already in my previous citation.  But try to follow the logic of my previous post, would you?
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #39 on: August 26, 2018, 06:57:22 PM »
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    • Yawn.....you better take another stab at it.
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    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #40 on: August 26, 2018, 07:24:16 PM »
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    • I do not longer think that it is possible for the Church to err in something as important as the canonization of a saint. The possibility of even a small error in a declaration of this magnitude would completely destroy the confidence the faithful has on the intercession of the saints.

    If we cannot be certain that any of the saints we pray to, are in fact reigning with Jesus in Heaven, then what is the point of the veneration? The entire Catholic doctrine of saints is based upon such certitude. Think about it, what if St. Thomas is not really a saint? what if the Church made a mistake in canonizing St. Augustine? It would be chaos and does not make sense. Also, as models of virtue to follow, it would be detrimental for the Church to propose a person to imitate who is not actually worthy. It would amount to a defection in the Church's mission of salvation to be canonizing people for the faithful to pray to; but who are actually in Hell.

    Council of Trent:

    Quote
    ….teaching them, that the saints, who reign together with Christ, offer up their own prayers to God for men; that it is good and useful suppliantly to invoke them, and to have recourse to their prayers, aid, (and) help for obtaining benefits from God, through His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, who is our alone Redeemer and Saviour; but that they think impiously, who deny that the saints, who enjoy eternal happiness in heaven, are to be invocated; or who assert either that they do not pray for men; or, that the invocation of them to pray for each of us even in particular, is idolatry; or, that it is repugnant to the word of God; and is opposed to the honour of the one mediator of God and men, Christ Jesus; or, that it is foolish to supplicate, vocally, or mentally, those who reign in heaven.

    It would be a falsehood, a defection, for the Church to tell us that someone is reigning in Heaven, worthy of imitation and veneration; when the person may actually be burning in Hell.

    Canonizations are infallible (beatifications are not). Also, it is not the canonical process itself which makes the canonization infallible or not, (as the SSPX says); but the Papal approbation.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #41 on: August 26, 2018, 07:39:32 PM »
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    • Quote from: Cantarella on August 26, 2018, 07:24:16 PM
    I do not longer think that it is possible for the Church to err in something as important as the canonization of a saint. The possibility of even a small error in a declaration of this magnitude would completely destroy the confidence the faithful has on the intercession of the saints.

    If we cannot be certain that any of the saints we pray to, are in fact reigning with Jesus in Heaven, then what is the point of the veneration? The entire Catholic doctrine of saints is based upon such certitude. Think about it, what if St. Thomas is not really a saint? what if the Church made a mistake in canonizing St. Augustine? It would be chaos and does not make sense. Also, as models of virtue to follow, it would be detrimental for the Church to propose a person to imitate who is not worthy. This would amount to a defection in the Church's mission of salvation.

    Council of Trent:

    It would be a falsehood, a defection, for the Church to tell us that someone is reigning in Heaven, worthy of imitation and veneration; when the person may actually be burning in Hell.

    Canonizations are infallible (beatifications are not). Also, it is not the canonical process itself which makes the canonization infallible or not, (as the SSPX says); but the Papal approbation.

    Your argument is essentially that canonizations are a dogmatic fact, therefore we must accept them.

    But the identity of the pope is also a dogmatic fact, therefore we must accept him.

    It would be pure subjective arbitrarity and hypocrisy to insist on the former, but not the latter.
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    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #42 on: August 26, 2018, 08:19:21 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on August 26, 2018, 07:39:32 PM
    But the identity of the pope is also a dogmatic fact, therefore we must accept him.

    "The identity of the pope is a dogmatic fact"

    Could you elaborate on that, please!? When and where did the Magisterium declare and define which popes were to come in the future?
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    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #43 on: August 26, 2018, 08:20:46 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on August 26, 2018, 07:39:32 PM
    Your argument is essentially that canonizations are a dogmatic fact, therefore we must accept them.

    But the identity of the pope is also a dogmatic fact, therefore we must accept him.

    It would be pure subjective arbitrarity and hypocrisy to insist on the former, but not the latter.

    The Church cannot err in Her Infallible Magisterium.

    But anti-Popes can (and have in the past) infiltrate the Seat of Peter.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #44 on: August 26, 2018, 08:30:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: Cantarella on August 26, 2018, 08:20:46 PM
    The Church cannot err in Her Infallible Magisterium.

    But anti-Popes can (and have in the past) infiltrate the Seat of Peter.

    Translation:

    These recent popes are not dogmatic facts, but previous popes were.

    Counter:

    These recent canonizations are not dogmatic facts, but previous canonizations were.

    What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
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