Author Topic: Eleison Comments (Read 7230 times)

clare · « **Reply #45 on:** September 01, 2015, 03:02:44 AM »

Quote from: TKGS

Quote from: clare
Quote from: Matthew
Yes, there are only two forms of Home Aloners

A) accidental: I live in Arkansas, and so there isn't a Tridentine Mass within 6 hours of me. I stay at home on Sunday because I certainly can't go to the Novus Ordo.

B) dogmatic: I stay at home at Sunday because the only options near me are "not acceptable" for some dogmatic reason -- something touching on the Faith.

Isn't the dogmatic kind more like "I stay at home on Sundays because there is no option anywhere at all on the planet"?

That's what I thought. After all, even though there is an archdiocesan indult Mass in the area (closer than the chapel I attend), should the priest at my chapel not be available on a Sunday and Mass is canceled, I won't be going to the archdiocesan service for dogmatic reasons.

Does this make me a dogmatic home aloner?

I was thinking more of the view that holds that no priest has the right to say Mass without jurisdiction, and the Church is so eclipsed that there is no authority to give any priests that jurisdiction. I gather there are people who think like that.

Wessex · « **Reply #46 on:** September 01, 2015, 05:37:00 AM »

Quote from: Neil Obstat

Quote from: Wessex

There were others who stood up to "the unfaithful Church authorities".
They must always be acknowledged and remembered.

Great! But if the world relies on that post, they'll be forgotten.

How about this: Provide a list of their names and countries of origin/operation.

I'm asking for the names of those who stood up at least as prominently as ABL did (since your claim is that he didn't really stand up so much in the first place).

E.g., Does Fr. Leonard Feeney make your list? He "stood up" in 1948, long before the Council reared its ugly head. Or is he somehow disqualified for some unmentionable 'reason'?

.

I fear bishops are political animals and you do not know where they stand from day to day. Priests have more freedom to stand by their convictions if their minds are not focused on their living.

The archbishop and Bp. de Castro Mayer were both retired when they disobeyed and that much sought after mainstream approval of ABL's experiment was sought from a Swiss bishop about to retire in spite of the obvious and much-vaunted state of necessity that unhesitatingly propelled other traditionalist clergy.

There are numerous priests one could list but the prominence of individual priests is somewhat limited because of the hierarchical structure designed to contain them. One of the reasons why the conciliar changes were made without much trouble.
My home grown hero was Fr. Oswald Baker who single-handedly defied the hierarchy in England before ABL landed on our shores. He did not need the sanction of any pusillanimous bishop to do what he had always done.

It must be acknowledged that the rise of ABL was as much political as it was religious. He had the backing of substantial benefactors and sidelined aristocracy looking for a vehicle to challenge modern establishments. These very same people ... or their successors ..... would very easily switch their support to a Menzingen that would protect their particular interests. An analysis of the archbishop's support would be very good reading and surprise quite a few.

Clemens Maria · « **Reply #47 on:** September 01, 2015, 01:31:45 PM »

Quote from: Wessex

It must be acknowledged that the rise of ABL was as much political as it was religious.

It was also due to his knowledge and experience. He worked in the missions for decades. He was a talented and knowledgeable organizer and builder. And that's what he did with the SSPX.

hollingsworth · « **Reply #48 on:** September 01, 2015, 05:30:58 PM »

Wessex:

Quote

I fear bishops are political animals and you do not know where they stand from day to day.

Whoa! You mean all bishops, everywhere, from the beginning of the Christian era, in all climes, under all circuмstances, even in the most remote corners of the globe? Well, that's not looking very good, is it? Bishops, merely by virtue, apparently, of bearing the title 'bishop,' are condemned to political animalhood. They are a confused bunch of men who, in every age, lurch about uncertainly daily, never really knowing what end is up. Boy, am I glad I'm not a bishop! Thank goodness for priests like Fr. P and others who strive to keep certain bishops on the straight and narrow. Thank goodness, as well, for certain members of Catholic online fora, who are always ready to step forward and offer correctives to errant bishops, (reams and reams of them in some cases). :surprised:

JPaul · « **Reply #49 on:** September 01, 2015, 05:47:12 PM »

Quote from: Clemens Maria

Quote from: Wessex
It must be acknowledged that the rise of ABL was as much political as it was religious.

It was also due to his knowledge and experience. He worked in the missions for decades. He was a talented and knowledgeable organizer and builder. And that's what he did with the SSPX.

All of this is true but does not dilute the thrust of Wessex's comments. The Archbishop after a long life was well connected both in the ecclesial arena and in the private sector. He had access to many resources which the common priest would simply not have.

ABL was by comparison a high profile figure and when he did something, it was noticed. And it was not as easy to marginalize him as it would be a parish priest whom they could easily crush and did so in any number of cases.

Graham · « **Reply #50 on:** September 01, 2015, 06:43:45 PM »

Who has ever heard of a "thrust" being "diluted"?

JPaul · « **Reply #51 on:** September 01, 2015, 07:31:29 PM »

Quote from: Graham

Who has ever heard of a "thrust" being "diluted"?

Well instead we will say that the point and substance of his comments are not weakened by the other facts presented if that helps you to understand the point being made.

Wessex · « **Reply #52 on:** September 03, 2015, 06:47:25 AM »

Quote from: hollingsworth

Wessex:
Quote
I fear bishops are political animals and you do not know where they stand from day to day.

Whoa! You mean all bishops, everywhere, from the beginning of the Christian era, in all climes, under all circuмstances, even in the most remote corners of the globe? Well, that's not looking very good, is it? Bishops, merely by virtue, apparently, of bearing the title 'bishop,' are condemned to political animalhood. They are a confused bunch of men who, in every age, lurch about uncertainly daily, never really knowing what end is up. Boy, am I glad I'm not a bishop! Thank goodness for priests like Fr. P and others who strive to keep certain bishops on the straight and narrow. Thank goodness, as well, for certain members of Catholic online fora, who are always ready to step forward and offer correctives to errant bishops, (reams and reams of them in some cases). :surprised:

Out of context again, H. I could throw in more ammo like power corrupts, etc. or adopt the popular historian's view of the Church and her bishops. Should we start with Cardinal Wolsey and then indulge in the antics of medieval Italian bishops? But I will not join their ranks and say only that the thousands of bishops attending V2 were to a man so single-minded about preserving the faith as it was handed down that the outcome of the Council could never have happened. Political considerations would never have entered their scrupulous minds.

While growing up, my parents would often refer to "him in Birmingham" when being critical of the diocesan bishop. I never heard of these office holders being particularly endowed with rectitude and holiness. Then, as now, they were chosen for their political guile commensurate with the overblown institution they were representing either side of the lychgate.

And let us look at those chosen to follow ABL. Have not all of them ended up in varying degrees bowing to political considerations when dealing with the pressures of modernity? Where is the leadership necessary for the Church to impose her unremitting divine mission on mankind? No, they are all wrapped up in their own personal confusions, feigning humility, but locked inside intellectual cul-de-sacs of their own making. And these are supposed to be the better bishops.

JPaul · « **Reply #53 on:** September 03, 2015, 07:15:55 AM »

Wessex,

Quote

And let us look at those chosen to follow ABL. Have not all of them ended up in varying degrees bowing to political considerations when dealing with the pressures of modernity? Where is the leadership necessary for the Church to impose her unremitting divine mission on mankind? No, they are all wrapped up in their own personal confusions, feigning humility, but locked inside intellectual cul-de-sacs of their own making. And these are supposed to be the better bishops.

One has but to read the daily Martyrology to see what Bishops should be and what today's Bishops are not.