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Author Topic: Loud "Active Participation - How They Emptied the Churches of Men  (Read 5263 times)

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Offline Last Tradhican

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Re: Loud "Active Participation - How They Emptied the Churches of Men
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2020, 02:16:39 PM »
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  • If you want to talk effeminacy, I never saw priests wearing lace and lingerie before I went to Latin masses. Do you think that attracts men?
    It is called lace edging and it is part of Catholic priests liturgical vestments, they are fine work to honor God with the best we have, like the Gold chalices and marble altars and art. They are not for attracting men.  

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Loud "Active Participation - How They Emptied the Churches of Men
    « Reply #16 on: November 26, 2020, 07:59:14 PM »
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  • It is called lace edging and it is part of Catholic priests liturgical vestments, they are fine work to honor God with the best we have, like the Gold chalices and marble altars and art. They are not for attracting men

    Speaking the responses is part of the Eastern liturgies and has been for centuries. Are you saying it's bad? That it's not about honoring God?

    Regarding lace, I was just teasing you to make a point.

    Fulton Sheen said one time he was staying in a hotel. The hotel staff set out his pajamas on one side of the bed and his surplice on the other, as if for his wife.

    It's funny but understandable when you see something like this:




    Stanley, you made my day!
    Thanks. Happy Thanksgiving.


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Loud "Active Participation - How They Emptied the Churches of Men
    « Reply #17 on: November 26, 2020, 08:38:43 PM »
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  • Speaking the responses is part of the Eastern liturgies and has been for centuries. Are you saying it's bad? That it's not about honoring God?
    Regarding aloud active participation see the OP of my thread and my answers to others:  https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/laity-vocal-reponses-are-a-novelty/


    The bottom line is that we follow the customs of our countries. The USA has  a Catholic mass history that goes back 300+ years involving customs from England, Germany, Ireland, Spain, Italy, Poland, France..... I live in the USA and I know my customs as I am sure a Coptic Catholic in Egypt knows his customs. What is done in an Eastern Liturgy is no consequence to me, just as what is done in the USA is of no consequence to a Coptic Catholic in Egypt.

    Saying that such and such was done 500 years ago in say Jerusalem or Antioch is how the modernists introduced every novelty hoisted upon the faithful in the 20th century. Learn your own customs and do not fall for the "inventors" of a better way. The customs of a country reflect the character of its people, and being that the USA is a melting pot of many Catholic countries, I have to think that their customs are the most universal.  

    Aloud active participation is not a custom of the USA.

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Loud "Active Participation - How They Emptied the Churches of Men
    « Reply #18 on: November 27, 2020, 08:44:12 AM »
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  • Regarding aloud active participation see the OP of my thread and my answers to others:  https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/laity-vocal-reponses-are-a-novelty/

    Saying that such and such was done 500 years ago in say Jerusalem or Antioch is how the modernists introduced every novelty hoisted upon the faithful in the 20th century. Learn your own customs and do not fall for the "inventors" of a better way.

    That's an interesting point -- revolutionaries could take the worst of all the liturgies and foist them upon each other, using each other as a reference.

    Kind of like the joke where in Hell the lovers are German, the engineers are Italian, the soldiers are French...   But in heaven the engineers are German, the lovers are French, and the artists are Italian.

    There is such a thing as taking the worst aspects from each Rite and making a "worst of all worlds" or "lowest common denominator" liturgy.
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    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Loud "Active Participation - How They Emptied the Churches of Men
    « Reply #19 on: November 27, 2020, 10:36:19 AM »
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  • The bottom line is that we follow the customs of our countries. The USA has  a Catholic mass history that goes back 300+ years involving customs from England, Germany, Ireland, Spain, Italy, Poland, France..... I live in the USA and I know my customs as I am sure a Coptic Catholic in Egypt knows his customs. What is done in an Eastern Liturgy is no consequence to me, just as what is done in the USA is of no consequence to a Coptic Catholic in Egypt.

    But that's a different argument. In THIS thread, the OP claimed that saying the responses is "effeminate", which appears to be used as a synonym for "bad". That's not a statement about a local custom, but a condemnation of responses in themselves, which would apply universally including condemning the Eastern rites. That's similar to someone condemning communion under both species. So yes, you should know something about what is done in the eastern liturgies.

    From my perspective, your dislike of saying the responses looks like a big fuss about nothing. It is really a problem to say "domine non sum dignus" together before communion? I don't think so, and even if it were, it's pretty minor.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Loud "Active Participation - How They Emptied the Churches of Men
    « Reply #20 on: November 27, 2020, 10:59:21 AM »
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  • From my perspective, your dislike of saying the responses looks like a big fuss about nothing. It is really a problem to say "domine non sum dignus" together before communion? I don't think so, and even if it were, it's pretty minor.

    When one understands WHY such practices were introduced, and the theological and liturgical errors they were meant to introduce, yes, they are a big problem.

    You can’t just look at a change per se, isolated from praxis and motive, and say, “What’s the big deal?”

    We could not have arrived at the Novus Ordo without the erroneous and modernist principles which set the table for the dialogue Mass after St. Pius X died:

    The dialogue Mass was created by covert modernist congresses, hidden away at monasteries, and sheltered and promoted by liberal bishops, until winning a concession from the weak Benedict XV (who effectively ended St. Pius X’s war on modernism when he suppressed the Sodalitium Pianum).

    Once the false liturgical principles of the dialogue Mass won Roman approval, minds began to be conditioned, and the introduction of a new rite of Holy Week (featuring in so many parts the very same false liturgical principles and theological underpinnings won by the modernists in the dialogue Mass) was created.

    13 years, the further development of these same principles gave us the Novus Ordo.

    So you can’t just dismiss aversion to the dialogue Mass as personal preference for quiet, or shrug shoulders and say, “What's the big deal?”

    The individual changes transpire within a context of pre-conciliar liturgical revolution, and are frequently based on heretical or liturgically unsound principles, as is tge practice of the entire congregation making the responses.

    Ps: Interesting that there were no Rome-approved dialogue Masses under Pius X.  This observation, in conjunction with the debate about whether he ever actually called for active participation (ie., the phrase does not appear in the Italian original), imply to  me that those liturgical modernists knew he would have rejected their attribution to him of an alleged desire to see more “active participation.”), and therefore he would not/did not approve of a dialogue Mass.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Loud "Active Participation - How They Emptied the Churches of Men
    « Reply #21 on: November 27, 2020, 11:37:20 AM »
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  • So you can’t just dismiss aversion to the dialogue Mass as personal preference for quiet, or shrug shoulders and say, “What's the big deal?”

    When you were at Winona, did you attend the dialogue Mass, or stay in your room on Saturdays?

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Loud "Active Participation - How They Emptied the Churches of Men
    « Reply #22 on: November 27, 2020, 11:53:39 AM »
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  • When you were at Winona, did you attend the dialogue Mass, or stay in your room on Saturdays?

    Matthew (who likes the dialogue Mass) is my witness:

    One day during Liturgy I class (much of which was dedicated to the history of the liturgical movement), as Fr. Juan-Carlos Iscara was teaching us about the methods/motives/errors of the liturgical reformers, I raised my hand and asked him:

    “If all these erroneous principles used to justify the dialogue Mass, and are also contained in the Novus Ordo, then why do we say the dialogue Mass here?” [or words to that effect; the memory fades]

    Fr. Iscara laughed, then jokingly told me I needed to go talk to the bishop.”

    From them on, I lip-synced the responses, and I have never voluntarily attended a dialogue Mass ever since.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Loud "Active Participation - How They Emptied the Churches of Men
    « Reply #23 on: November 27, 2020, 01:38:45 PM »
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  • From my perspective, your dislike of saying the responses looks like a big fuss about nothing. It is really a problem to say "domine non sum dignus" together before communion? I don't think so, and even if it were, it's pretty minor.
    Luckily I have never been at any mass where the congregation says the "domine non sum dignus" together aloud. If that does not smack of Novus Ordo to the writer, he  needs to go back to the drawing board. It's a slippery slope from the USA time-honored custom of individually-chosen silent prayers in mass (300+ years), to the 1965 missal in English , to the Novus Ordo mass, to our children leaving the church altogether by the 1970's.

    I follow the customs of my country, what my parents and grandparents going back generations followed. It is those that dislike those customs that are the revolutionaries. Had Catholics known their customs and how to live the faith (for they abandoned both), there would not have been a Vatican II revolution. It is all a punishment from God for not knowing our faith and rejecting our time honored customs.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Loud "Active Participation - How They Emptied the Churches of Men
    « Reply #24 on: November 27, 2020, 03:59:35 PM »
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  • Luckily I have never been at any mass where the congregation says the "domine non sum dignus" together aloud. If that does not smack of Novus Ordo to the writer, he  needs to go back to the drawing board. It's a slippery slope from the USA time-honored custom of individually-chosen silent prayers in mass (300+ years), to the 1965 missal in English , to the Novus Ordo mass, to our children leaving the church altogether by the 1970's.

    I follow the customs of my country, what my parents and grandparents going back generations followed. It is those that dislike those customs that are the revolutionaries. Had Catholics known their customs and how to live the faith (for they abandoned both), there would not have been a Vatican II revolution. It is all a punishment from God for not knowing our faith and rejecting our time honored customs.

    Here’s a sung mass at an SSPX chapel in Florida, transformed almost into a dialogue mass by placing the choir director at the communion rail, thereby making a choir of the entire congregation:



    This is a French thing usually seem on pilgrimages there.

    Naturally, the prior of this chapel is French (Fr. Vernoy), and this new effeminate practice was begun by him a couple years ago.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Prayerful

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    Re: Loud "Active Participation - How They Emptied the Churches of Men
    « Reply #25 on: November 27, 2020, 05:41:52 PM »
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  • If you want to talk effeminacy, I never saw priests wearing lace and lingerie before I went to Latin masses. Do you think that attracts men?
    Lingerie?
    What weird chapel do you go to?


    Offline ElAusente

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    Re: Loud "Active Participation - How They Emptied the Churches of Men
    « Reply #26 on: November 27, 2020, 05:49:42 PM »
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  • I don’t go to Mass for the sermon. 

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Loud "Active Participation - How They Emptied the Churches of Men
    « Reply #27 on: November 28, 2020, 06:52:09 PM »
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  • I follow the customs of my country, what my parents and grandparents going back generations followed
    This thread started with a claim responses were "effeminiate". You seem to have abandoned that "argument".

    OK, that's good enough for now.


    Lingerie?
    What weird chapel do you go to?
    See https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/loud-'active-participation-how-they-emptied-the-churches-of-men/msg723363/#msg723363

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Loud "Active Participation - How They Emptied the Churches of Men
    « Reply #28 on: November 29, 2020, 09:18:41 AM »
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  • I don’t go to Mass for the sermon.
    This may be, yet the point is that whenever any one goes to an SSPX chapel, they *should* hear a sermon that fortifies and strengthens their faith, not hear an insipid sermon, one that leaves them feeling nothing at all, or still spiritually hungry or starved - because we are speaking of something we need.  

    To put it another way, if the priest is going to interrupt the Mass for a sermon at all, then the sermon ought to always be worthy of the interruption. Period.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline subpallaeMariae

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    Re: Loud "Active Participation - How They Emptied the Churches of Men
    « Reply #29 on: December 06, 2020, 01:33:42 AM »
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  • When one understands WHY such practices were introduced, and the theological and liturgical errors they were meant to introduce, yes, they are a big problem.

    You can’t just look at a change per se, isolated from praxis and motive, and say, “What’s the big deal?”

    We could not have arrived at the Novus Ordo without the erroneous and modernist principles which set the table for the dialogue Mass after St. Pius X died:

    The dialogue Mass was created by covert modernist congresses, hidden away at monasteries, and sheltered and promoted by liberal bishops, until winning a concession from the weak Benedict XV (who effectively ended St. Pius X’s war on modernism when he suppressed the Sodalitium Pianum).

    Once the false liturgical principles of the dialogue Mass won Roman approval, minds began to be conditioned, and the introduction of a new rite of Holy Week (featuring in so many parts the very same false liturgical principles and theological underpinnings won by the modernists in the dialogue Mass) was created.

    13 years, the further development of these same principles gave us the Novus Ordo.

    So you can’t just dismiss aversion to the dialogue Mass as personal preference for quiet, or shrug shoulders and say, “What's the big deal?”

    The individual changes transpire within a context of pre-conciliar liturgical revolution, and are frequently based on heretical or liturgically unsound principles, as is tge practice of the entire congregation making the responses.

    Ps: Interesting that there were no Rome-approved dialogue Masses under Pius X.  This observation, in conjunction with the debate about whether he ever actually called for active participation (ie., the phrase does not appear in the Italian original), imply to  me that those liturgical modernists knew he would have rejected their attribution to him of an alleged desire to see more “active participation.”), and therefore he would not/did not approve of a dialogue Mass.
    Thank you, Mr. Johnson, for this excellent summary. I'm keeping it for future warfare.