Author Topic: Lose "Unity"? (Read 2040 times)

Ekim · « **on:** February 12, 2013, 05:05:59 AM »

Moderator: This thread has a HUGE bearing on the discussion found here. I recommend that everyone click and read this thread.

http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/Winona-Priest-Meeting

Short version: The 2013 Priest Meeting in Winona, MN highlighted "Unity" and "Obedience".

I recently spoke to an SSPX priest. He said much of what the SSPX-SO is saying is true but what he cant quite understand is how a couple of priests doing their own thing in KY, and an exiled bishop in London who is calling for "a loosely associated network of priest " matches the four marks that our Lord said would be found in His Church, One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. He can not see these four marks in the SSPX-SO. The very term "loosely associated" seems to contradict the entire concept of oneness.

Does anyone have any thoughts?

Francisco · « **Reply #1 on:** February 12, 2013, 05:28:20 AM »

Quote from: Ekim

I recently spoke to an SSPX priest. He said much of what the SSPX-SO is saying is true but what he cant quite understand is how a couple of priests doing their own thing in KY, and an exiled bishop in London who is calling for "a loosely associated network of priest " matches the four marks that our Lord said would be found in His Church, One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. He can not see these four marks in the SSPX-SO. The very term "loosely associated" seems to contradict the entire concept of oneness.Does anyone have any thoughts?

You could say that the SSPX-SO is ( just like SSPX-Menzingen) a Pious Union of Priests. It is united with the Catholic Church of All Time (Eternal Rome as Abp Lefebvre said). I cannot see a problem.

TKGS · « **Reply #2 on:** February 12, 2013, 06:37:50 AM »

How does this priest see the mark of unity in the SSPX?

His answer will either indicate that he believes the SSPX is the Catholic Church or, as shown above, the SSPX is united with Eternal Rome.

Frankly, as with all organizations attached--even if only theoretically--to the Modernist Conciliar church, there is no unity, for the shepherd has been struck and the sheep scattered.

Ambrose · « **Reply #3 on:** February 12, 2013, 06:59:22 AM »

Quote from: Ekim

I recently spoke to an SSPX priest. He said much of what the SSPX-SO is saying is true but what he cant quite understand is how a couple of priests doing their own thing in KY, and an exiled bishop in London who is calling for "a loosely associated network of priest " matches the four marks that our Lord said would be found in His Church, One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. He can not see these four marks in the SSPX-SO. The very term "loosely associated" seems to contradict the entire concept of oneness.

Does anyone have any thoughts?

Does this priest think the SSPX is the Church? That appears to be the underlying assumption. The SO priests are another clerical group providing sacraments to Catholics and relying on the two principles, epikeia and supplied jurisdiction. The SSPX relies on the same principles so there is no difference between the two groups in this regard.

1. One: We are all Catholics, adhere to the same Faith, and regarding adherence to the "pope," it is because of this "pope" and his predecessors that we are in this mess to begin with.

2. Holy: The Church is holy, and Catholics are made to be holy through the sacraments and prayer.

3. Apostolic: The Church has faithfully transmitted the apostolic Faith to our present day. Catholics believe in the same Faith that existed in the beginning until now. Regarding the Apostolic succession, that is passed down through all bishops lawfully appointed by the Pope, and has no bearing on the traditional groups.

4. Catholic: The Church is universal, not bound to any country or race. Again this has no bearing on the SO priests.

The marks of the Church are still evident in our times, and no Catholic group including the SSPX has any monopoly over them. They are identifiers of the Church itself. If any mark were to be missing, then the Church would have failed. If any mark is absent then the Church is not there.

The Conciliar church lacks the four marks, it lacks the mark of holiness as some of the sacramental rites are evil and impious and possibly invalid, and their universal law in the Code contains evil. Such things are impossible with a holy and spotless Church. It also clearly lacks the mark of being apostolic, as it has professed new and heretical doctrine separating itself from the Church of all ages.

The four marks are found in all those Catholics who have kept the Faith and who remain in communion with other Catholics.

PAT317 · « **Reply #4 on:** February 12, 2013, 09:02:47 AM »

Quote from: Francisco

You could say that the SSPX-SO is ( just like SSPX-Menzingen) a Pious Union of Priests. It is united with the Catholic Church of All Time (Eternal Rome as Abp Lefebvre said). I cannot see a problem.

Yes, and just like the SSPX used to be "united" with the other Traditional religious orders, Campos (before their defection), independent priests, the Society of St. Josaphat, etc... The Traditional movement could be said to have always been "a loosely associated network of priests."

Ekim · « **Reply #5 on:** February 12, 2013, 09:06:19 AM »

I think in the mind of this Priest, as well as many others, is the fact that since the SSPX was originally Canononicaly approved, it does in fact have legitimacy. It was the Church that fell apart around them. The SSPX-SO however, does not have this initial approval. Therefore, they are separating themselves from the Church.

I do agree however, that the SSPX has spent decades supporting and encouraging, even providing Confirmations for "Independent" priests and parishes. It is a bit hypocritical to then condemn those priests who have left the SSPX to be independent.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #6 on:** February 12, 2013, 11:28:04 AM »

Quote from: Ekim

I think in the mind of this Priest, as well as many others, is the fact that since the SSPX was originally Canononicaly approved, it does in fact have legitimacy.

That is ridiculous. Any legitimacy it has doesn't come from the fact that it was once established as a pious union.

Quote

It was the Church that fell apart around them.

What happened, and how did it happen? They can't change the fact that they aren't in the "official Church."

Quote

The SSPX-SO however, does not have this initial approval.

They were part of the SSPX, until the SSPX turned liberal. These cultists think that Bishop Fellay has a monopoly on legitimate disobedience.

Quote

Therefore, they are separating themselves from the Church.

The conclusion of a nutjob who thinks the SSPX is the Church.

Quote

I do agree however, that the SSPX has spent decades supporting and encouraging, even providing Confirmations for "Independent" priests and parishes. It is a bit hypocritical to then condemn those priests who have left the SSPX to be independent.

They want to purge Tradition for the conciliarists. That's their new mission.

It's satanic.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #7 on:** February 12, 2013, 11:34:37 AM »

Anyone who regards the SSPX as being legitimate because once it was established as a pious union is living a legalistic cult fantasy world.

The SSPX claims to be in the Church (or it did, now we can't be so sure!) and the Apostles of Jesus and Mary still claim to be in the SSPX.

The SSPX claims it had sanction that was unjustly removed, and so do the Apostles of Jesus and Mary.

The major difference, is that Bishop Fellay acts as a tyrant and regularly speaks out of both sides of his mouth.

For the cultists, that's a sign he's of the Church.

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #8 on:** February 12, 2013, 12:24:30 PM »

Quote from: Ekim

I think in the mind of this Priest, as well as many others, is ~~the fact that~~ since the SSPX was originally [Canonically] approved, it does ~~in fact~~ have legitimacy. It was the Church that fell apart around them. The SSPX-SO however, ~~does not have~~ this initial approval. Therefore, they are ~~separating~~ themselves ~~from~~ the Church.

Erroneous premise, bad logic, false conclusion. See Tele's comments above.

Quote

I do agree however, that the SSPX has spent decades supporting and encouraging, even providing Confirmations for "Independent" priests and parishes. It is a bit hypocritical to then condemn those priests who have left the SSPX to be independent.

The final act of +Williamson before he was "excluded" was his trip to South
America to give Confirmation to about 100 confirmandi who were attending the
local independent chapels. +Fellay never explained what his problem was with
that action, but he did identify it as "disobedience" for +W to do it.

Recall that at the same time +Fellay was denying certain candidates priestly
ordination, because they were among others who were not supportive of his
agenda to make a 'deal' with modernist Rome.

One can only surmise that +Fellay's opposition was based on his desire to refuse
Confirmation to those 100 in Brazil because they were likewise associated with
clerics who had voiced opposition to his agenda for a 'deal' with modernist Rome.

And now, +W is on the way to Post Falls, to give Confirmation to some soldiers
in the making, many of whom, no doubt, attend Mass at independent chapels
where the priest is not in favor of an SSPX 'deal' with modernist Rome.

And here too, we would have to wonder, at the vary least, whether +Fellay is
wont to deny them Confirmation because of their association, for why else would
+W be going there to give the Sacrament, during Lent, no less!

It's obviously an emergency procedure. The patient is in critical condition, and
an operation is required at a time that normally would be 'inconvenient.'

Happy Fat Tuesday.

MaterDominici · « **Reply #9 on:** February 12, 2013, 01:37:59 PM »

Quote from: Telesphorus

Apostles of Jesus and Mary

I believe this is a title of all SSPX priests, not just Frs Pfeiffer/Chazal/Hewko. I'm not sure why they recently decided to use it publically rather than "SSPX".

MaterDominici · « **Reply #10 on:** February 12, 2013, 01:40:48 PM »

Seraphim started a different thread here, but this information should not be missed in this discussion.

Quote from: Seraphim

Quote from: Ekim
I recently spoke to an SSPX priest. He said much of what the SSPX-SO is saying is true but what he cant quite understand is how a couple of priests doing their own thing in KY, and an exiled bishop in London who is calling for "a loosely associated network of priest " matches the four marks that our Lord said would be found in His Church, One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. He can not see these four marks in the SSPX-SO. The very term "loosely associated" seems to contradict the entire concept of oneness.

Does anyone have any thoughts?

I have an idea of why the priest you spoke with may have opined as he did:

1) The SSPX priests of the US District just concluded a week of conferences in Winona at the annual priest meeting.

2) One of the major topics discussed was obedience.

3) I find that humorous, insofar as, if there was one topic you would think an SSPX priest was already up to speed on, it would be proper conceptions of true/false obedience, necessity, etc.

4) Theology 101, really.

5) Anyway, it does not surprise that the meeting would have rebuttal of the SSPX-SO arguments as one of their major themes.

6) Gradually, pounding away at the priests, the arguments slowly sink in.

7) Speaking with an SSPX priest last week, I noticed a bit of this softening in him, having come straight from the meeting.

8) He opined we ought not be too caught up in conspiracy theories; we may need to compromise to get a deal, not on doctrine, but on principles ABL would not have agreed with because of changing conditions; the situation in Rome is not the same; etc.

9) I was shocked....the Kansas City indoctrination is working away at him. (For a refutation of these positions, see Arsenius' recent article posted elsewhere on this forum).

10) When you are surrounded by priests who are afraid to speak up, it starts to look like they are all on board.

11) You then start to doubt yourself, and the merits of resistance.

12) With regard to the assertion that Bishop Williamson's call for "a loose confederation of independent priests," his position was misrepresented at the priest meeting (and this is why SSPX priests are regurgitating this baloney this week):

13) Bishop Williamson did not say this was a normative practice, and therefore deny the unity and heirarchy natural to the Church.

14) He called for this only as a response to the crisis, as a safeguard and precautionary measure for the preservation of tradition.

15) Certainly Bishop Williamson does not deny heirarchy and unity in normal times; that is the part the speaker at the priest meeting left out.

16) As time goes by, and the indoctrination process sinks deeper into the remaining SSPX priests, I expect fewer and fewer of them to resist.

17) If that proves true, the remnant of tradition will have to grow organically, rather than by SSPX defections to the SSPX-SO.

18) 12 Apostles converted the world, and 5 seminarians grew the SSPX.....There are precedents that give cause for hope.

Pax tecuм,

Seraphim

Telesphorus · « **Reply #11 on:** February 12, 2013, 02:04:51 PM »

the SSPX-SO is not their name.

MaterDominici · « **Reply #12 on:** February 12, 2013, 02:11:34 PM »

Quote from: Telesphorus

the SSPX-SO is not their name.

Do they have an official name other than Our Lady of Mt Carmel Church? I don't think they do.

Pablo · « **Reply #13 on:** February 12, 2013, 02:41:57 PM »

The Padres would like for you to consider the SSPX of Archbishop Lefebvre,

compared to the politacally correct, diplomatic Surrendered SSPX of today:

Letter to Friends and Benefactors (No. 15) October 1978

Dear Friends and Benefactors:

Since our last letter a few notable events have arisen in the Church: the death of Paul VI and the election of John Paul I. To be sure, these events are far from leaving us indifferent! Our desire to see the Church free of modernists and progressivists that occupy it is all the greater. For close to twenty years we have prayed to God to give to His Church true apostles of the Catholic Faith- the Faith which has given the Church its martyrs, doctors, confessors, virgins and all the saints who illustrate her history and who prove the worth of her doctrine, Sacrifice and sacraments.

We tremble at the thought that the infiltration of modernism, that is to say naturalism, may continue in the Church. The consequences of this veritable cancer are the most serious that the Church has had to undergo during the course of her history; that is, the corruption of the Faith of numerous bishops and a great number of priests, monks and nuns. These clerics reason like the modernists and the protestants: witness the newly published book "Bishops Speak of the Faith of the Catholic Church." The ideas of sanctifying grace, original sin, mortal sin and its consequences, of the expiatory Sacrifice of Our Lord which continues on our altars, are all spoiled. In their place one finds all the errors of liberalism, of Americanism, of Sillonism, and of modernism condemned by the Sovereign Pontiffs. Add to that the theology of liberation which is a Marxist interpretation of the Gospel a sacrilegious and outrageous misinterpretation of Our Lord. Therefore, let us not be amazed that the patience of God is exhausted!
All seems to crumble around us because the foundation of all things has been abandoned; that is, the Way, the Truth and the Life our beloved Saviour and Lord Jesus Christ. It is because of these reasons, these truths, that we wish to be so much more faithful to Our Lord, to His reign, to His cross, to His sacrifice, to His sacraments and to His teachings which have been faithfully transmitted by the successors of Peter during close to twenty centuries.

Let us ask Saint Pius X to guide Pope John Paul I. May the Virgin Mary, desiring the purity of the Faith as well as sensitive to everything which betrays her Divine Son, come to the aid of His Church.

By the grace of God, the help of your prayers and your generosity, so many priests, brothers and religious have joined the Society that is has increased rapidly making it difficult to give you a complete report. We wish that every district superior, as well as every superior of autonomous priories, would complete the news for each region.
On June 29th, we ordained eighteen priests from which there will be two for the Monastery of Bedoin of Dom Gerard, and sixteen for the Society. All will begin their ministry in this month of September. It would be necessary to ordain four times as many in order to respond to the requests that come to us from all the continents and all the countries. Everywhere the Faithful feel abandoned or betrayed by their clergy. They no longer find the Catholic Church but a modernist cult and doctrine. Parents are fearful for their children.

Japan, India, Australia, South America, South Africa without counting all the countries where we already have missionaries -beg us to send true priests. Vocations arise from everywhere. This last year has been especially marked by support from South America and Italy. There are 65 new seminarians who enter this year in our three seminaries. Our fourth seminary will open in the month of March in Buenos Aires.

Henceforth, the seminary of the German tongue is transferred from Weissbad to Zaiztkofen between Munich and Ratisbonne. Weissbad will serve for those who prepare themselves for the major seminary. Two more locations are now open in Madrid and Brussels where the Society will begin its ministry. Seminarians studying at Econe will take their second year in Albano in order to gain a deeper appreciation of the Church's Latin and Roman traditions.

The Society has acquired the important center of Saint Mary's, in Kansas in America, with its large sanctuary dedicated to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, suitable for pilgrimages, retreats and perhaps the site of a future college.

Eleven applications were received from young men wishing to enter the novitiate as brothers. Fifteen young women have applied for the novitiate at St. Michel-en-Brenne, and twelve for the Carmel in Quievrain, Belgium. If we added all the applicants to those congregations which have kept their sound traditions we would marvel indeed at this true renewal of the Church where the fruits of the Holy Ghost give forth their true radiance and not the aberrations of the charismatics.

Is it not obvious that where the Faith of the Church is, so also is its holiness; where the holiness of the Catholic Church is, there also is the Catholic Church. A church which no longer produces good fruit, which is barren, is no longer the Catholic Church.
We certainly do not amount to much, and the good which is done through our efforts comes from Our Lord. That is why we trust, because from nothing, He can do much. The whole history of the Church proves it. Our Lord does not demand success from us; this is His domain. He only asks for our willingness and readiness to serve Him in our crosses as well as in our blessings.

Should these few lines reach those priests, monks and nuns who are fighting to keep the Faith and Tradition especially the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass let us tell them that the Society is ready with its means to assist them in matters spiritual, moral and material.
Dear friends and benefactors, how we would like to serve you in your sanctification and in the sanctification, education and spiritual support of your children. We wish to start schools, especially for boys. The future of Christian families depends thereon. We are fully aware of your needs. That is why we already have schools in New York and Houston, in America, and why we will continue the school at St. Michel de Chateauroux in France.

We trust that we will have your continued support, your prayers, your sacrifices and your generosity. May God repay you through Mary and Joseph in abundant blessings.

Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre

On the Feast of the

Nativity of the Most Holy Virgin Mary
the 8th of September 1978
*******************************************************************

Official communiqué of the SSPX Monday, February 11, 2013

The Society of Saint Pius X has learned of the sudden announcement about the resignation of Pope Benedict XVI, which will be effective on the evening of February 28, 2013. Despite the doctrinal differences that were still evident on the occasion of the theological talks held between 2009 and 2011, the Society of Saint Pius X does not forget that the Holy Father had the courage to recall the fact that the Traditional Mass had never been abrogated, and to do away with the canonical sanctions that had been imposed on its bishops following their consecration in 1988. It is not unaware of the opposition that these decisions have stirred up, obliging the pope to justify himself to the bishops of the whole world. The Society expresses its gratitude to him for the strength and the constancy that he has shown toward it in such difficult circuмstances, and assures him of its prayers for the time that he wishes to devote from now on to recollection.

Following its founder, Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, the Society of Saint Pius X reaffirms its attachment to eternal Rome, Mother and Instructress [Mater et Magistra] of Truth, and to the See of Peter. It reiterates its desire to make its contribution, according to its abilities, to resolving the grave crisis that is shaking the Church. It prays that, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, the cardinals of the next conclave may elect the pope who, according to the will of God, will work for the restoration of all things in Christ (Eph 1:10).

Menzingen, February 11, 2013,

on the Feast of Our Lady of Lourdes

*

on the Feast of Our Lady of Lourdes

stgobnait · « **Reply #14 on:** February 12, 2013, 02:47:24 PM »

Read it and weep...