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Author Topic: Little crack in my SSPX wall  (Read 2148 times)

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Offline Eliza10

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Little crack in my SSPX wall
« on: April 21, 2020, 11:27:57 PM »
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  • Because of the virus, our ICSKP Mass, being under the jurisdiction of our diocesan archbishop, is closed like most all of them. Our wonderful priest has online Mass at 6:30am. 
    But I have got in the habit of working late (online for work) and can't get up that early. (I am online teaching and it's been overwhelmingly time-consuming).

    I do want to get back in sync with our own parish, but as I haven't managed to reconstruct my wake/sleep cycle yet, and 10am works nicely for me, Sunday Mass has been [except at Eastertime], an SSPX Mass online at Our Lady of Sorrows in Phoenix. It feels truly Catholic. Not cult-like or anything, like I was sort of afraid it might be. First time we darkened the door - albeit virtual - of an SSPX Mass, and we loved it immediately. .

    I felt "safe" doing this for probably the same reason my husband felt okay about this default-choice (I have to ask him), which was because of the favorable mention of SSPX in some Taylor Marshall video we watched, where Marshall mentions he read the LeFevre biography, and that this Bishop was probably a Saint. That caught my interest, in this time of so few saints. He also explained logically why SSPX is not in schism. 

    One of the first persons (a couple, the wife especially) to turn my head about the Catholic faith, who taught me to pray the rosary when I asked, ended up becoming SSPX about when I entered the Church. They were at my diocese at that time, and I could understand, because our diocese was so bad. But having come from Protestantism, the place of so much splintering, I wanted to be apart of the unity, not the splintering, and I felt I needed to stay on the big ship, not matter how tattered.

    At one point these friends offered to pay for me to go on an Ignatian retreat, described as being in country near NYC, which included discerning a call to become SSPX. That was a generous, kind offer, but besides being unwilling to leave my young son at home without me, I was afraid it would be like one of those hard-sell time-share things you listen to for hours when they trap you there with the offer of a free hotel stay.

    I also didn't feel I understood this giant Church I had just adopted for life (other than sure knowledge that this was the true Church of our Lord) in order to discern who was right and who wrong in this matter.

    Once in, I got to see a whole lot wrong. It was so confusing. God gave me many ways to grow in my nw Catholic faith over the years, but it mostly wasn't through Mass. The confusion of so much of what I saw finally all made sense when my husband and I decided to watch TnT videos last spring, and the content described of Marshall's book Infiltration explained everything I needed to know.

    Today I saw this video, and I was impressed again.


    I totally related to the part, at 43:00. Yes. That is exactly how I have felt. Don't go to SSPX and risk falling for their better, more beautiful way of doing the Mass because no matter how bad, I need to stick with this ship, and go down with it if I have to. (but I did not believe it would go down. Just be a rough, unpleasant ride.) This priest illuminated me when he described that person as sacrificing the interest of his own soul. Yes. I felt that was my duty, too. I often felt that Novus Ordo Masses I attended (til I found an unusually reverent one) were a deterrent to my growth in the faith, but I saw it as a sacrifice I was offering and my reward was Jesus in the Eucharist. When we started ICKSP Mass in October, I fell in love with it immediately,a dn was sograteful to have a church home after so many years of being - like wandering in the desert! And I am so sad now for it to be spoiled.  

    I heard people talk of a "remnant" church but I didn't want to know about that. If that time came, I would know it. Well, lately it seems like I can imagine that remnant church on the horizon. Especially because seeing how deep the problem is (bishops hopping on board to immediately ban Catholics from the Sacraments shows you how very very deep the problem is with the whole college of bishops.It is going to take a miraculous super-conversion to change things.)

    I like how it was explained in the video of the debt tradition owes SSPX, for being there in the 70s, 80s, and without them, there would be no Latin mass now. No '62 missal to buy.

    A lot to think about. The nearest SSPX mass to me is in Ridgefield CT. 50 min.  I sure would like to go on a retreat there.
    And the peace of God, which surpasseth all understanding, keep your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus.

    Offline JBeam

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    Re: Little crack in my SSPX wall
    « Reply #1 on: April 22, 2020, 04:53:56 AM »
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  •  :confused: What’s going on here ? :confused:


    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Little crack in my SSPX wall
    « Reply #2 on: April 22, 2020, 05:26:05 AM »
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  • I totally related to the part, at 43:00. Yes. That is exactly how I have felt. Don't go to SSPX and risk falling for their better, more beautiful way of doing the Mass because no matter how bad, I need to stick with this ship, and go down with it if I have to. (but I did not believe it would go down. Just be a rough, unpleasant ride.) This priest illuminated me when he described that person as sacrificing the interest of his own soul. Yes. I felt that was my duty, too. I often felt that Novus Ordo Masses I attended (til I found an unusually reverent one) were a deterrent to my growth in the faith, but I saw it as a sacrifice I was offering and my reward was Jesus in the Eucharist. When we started ICKSP Mass in October, I fell in love with it immediately,a dn was sograteful to have a church home after so many years of being - like wandering in the desert! And I am so sad now for it to be spoiled. 
    First, I think it always helps to know some history. I would like to recommend you read The Great Sacrilege, written when the revolution within the Church was only in it's infancy, yet what is written in it still applies today - and as long as there is a NO, it will always apply.  

    Most people do not understand that the NO service is an official and public display of the desecration of the True Mass, which is why we avoid it always. We must never be a part of it or that which has anything to do with it, including the establishment that perpetrates it. This, in a nutshell, explains the origin of the good Archbishop Lefebvre' SSPX that he founded.

    Here is a sermon given by Fr. Wathen only a day or two after the Archbishop consecrated the 4 bishops, it's less than 20 minutes long but well worth hearing, as again, being truth, what he said then is just as true today, as a wise poster said before, "truth is always timeless".

    All that being said, although it has not happened (yet), the SSPX are a hair away and in danger of joining the same conciliar establishment as ICK, so you need to beware of that when you go there. For me, in my experience, I am aware of their troubles but so far, all of their priests have been solid.



    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Sam Smith

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    Re: Little crack in my SSPX wall
    « Reply #3 on: April 22, 2020, 09:23:07 PM »
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  • The OP will probably get piled on here.
    It's terribly sad what has become of the SSPX, especially since the split in 2012, but I guess it's good to know there are still converts to be had by its existence.

    Offline Eliza10

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    Re: Little crack in my SSPX wall
    « Reply #4 on: April 23, 2020, 11:28:53 PM »
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  • Wow. Just watched this:


    It seems clerical abuse and covering them up and arranging for the abusers to be working alongside other candidates to abuse is just as big a problem with SSPX as the rest of the church. Apparently they ahve been infiltratred, too. 

    SSPX has its own spin on that. I can see how the priests would committ themselves to a beautiful time-consuming liturgy, even though they lack supernatural faith, when it offers the benefit of adulating respect of the people, and an easy, trusted access to their children and adolescents because of that respect for their authority. They can live the life of a liar, because they are supplied with access to their sɛҳuąƖ addiction, and then they get protection with the church's cover-up.

    Perhaps that cover-up started with the germ of disobedience of LeFevre, and his illicit ordinations. Some good came of it, but some bad, too, especially this, and the draw SSPX was a for career abusers and perverts.

    I remember when I was a new Catholic and my friends, who joined SSPX at that time, moved to live in Idaho in an SSPX community. It seemed great,but I always was a bit worried it could become cult-like with the great reverence for authority. This is what I had seen in the Protestant community with Bill Gothard. None of you probably know about that . But the parallels with that made me cautious about SSPX, and even Latin Mass because of that once I overheard a conversation when someone speaking clearly had the idea that we Latin Mass people are superior. Yes, that is what the Gothardites thought of themselves. They also feel superior to other Christians, because they do things right and better than the other Christians, and also have that super-great respect for hierarchical authority.

    One thing creepy for me in the above docuмentary was LeFevere's interest and support in one of the pervert priests, I think it was the one Christine called, who is now living with his boyfriend in Seattle, with the very effeminate accent.  It makes me wonder why Lefevre advocated for him - why did he so lack discernment?

    I have also wondered why Pope John Paul II, pope at the time of my conversion, whom I liked so much, had so little discernment over the Cardinals and bishops he appointed. Could it be what was so amazing about him was not his amazing supernatgural faith - which should come wtih disceernment, I would think, but just simply his amazing photographic memory? I mean, Marilu Hemmer has that.  

    Sure is confusing.
    And the peace of God, which surpasseth all understanding, keep your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus.


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Little crack in my SSPX wall
    « Reply #5 on: April 24, 2020, 08:40:28 AM »
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  • Here is a sermon given by Fr. Wathen only a day or two after the Archbishop consecrated the 4 bishops, it's less than 20 minutes long but well worth hearing, as again, being truth, what he said then is just as true today, as a wise poster said before, "truth is always timeless".

    All that being said, although it has not happened (yet), the SSPX are a hair away and in danger of joining the same conciliar establishment as ICK, so you need to beware of that when you go there. For me, in my experience, I am aware of their troubles but so far, all of their priests have been solid.

    I listened to most of the sermon given by Fr. Wathen that you posted a link to. It's very good. It gives a good background of why +ABL maintained his adherence to the true Catholic Faith, and why Rome tried to stop him.

    IMO, just as Rome has tried to get rid of the true Catholic Faith, Michael Voris wants to get rid of the SSPX. He has always been against the SSPX. Not sure why. It seems to be some sort of personal animus. Though I think it would be good to further investigate his claims (in an honest manner), I wouldn't assume that what Voris is presenting here is true. He's a ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ, and a narcissist. He doesn't think clearly, and he shouldn't have a soapbox that allows him to speak (supposedly) for the Catholic Faith.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Little crack in my SSPX wall
    « Reply #6 on: April 24, 2020, 03:05:30 PM »
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  • Apparently they ahve been infiltratred, too.

    Of course they have.  Church's enemies perfected the art of infiltration over the course of a couple hundred years and finally pulled off Vatican II.  To infiltrate the SSPX would be relatively simple by comparison.  If you were an intelligent seminarian who knew two or three languages, you were immediately fast-tracked to a leadership position in the SSPX.

    Offline Eliza10

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    Re: Little crack in my SSPX wall
    « Reply #7 on: April 24, 2020, 07:28:04 PM »
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  • I listened to most of the sermon given by Fr. Wathen that you posted a link to. It's very good. It gives a good background of why +ABL maintained his adherence to the true Catholic Faith, and why Rome tried to stop him.

    IMO, just as Rome has tried to get rid of the true Catholic Faith, Michael Voris wants to get rid of the SSPX. He has always been against the SSPX. Not sure why. It seems to be some sort of personal animus. Though I think it would be good to further investigate his claims (in an honest manner), I wouldn't assume that what Voris is presenting here is true. He's a ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ, and a narcissist. He doesn't think clearly, and he shouldn't have a soapbox that allows him to speak (supposedly) for the Catholic Faith.
    I am going to listen to the Fr. Wathen sermon because I do want to begin getting an understanding of SSPX - who get credit for the existence of my beautiful ICSPKP parish, and who deserves admiration for continuing during COVID with the sacraments. And I do want to learn more about ABL, and may get a biography next. At the moment, I am swamped with online teaching so can't give it a lot of thought at this time. That ends in June though.
    Meg, I can't agree with your opinion here. I think Michael Voris is above board, and is simply what we see - a zealous investigative reporter, devoted to getting the truth out. I admire that mission, because the truth sets you free.  I think he and the rest of CM see the truth that this abuse scandal being underground is what has made it thrive, and they are taking it upon themselves to expose it so that it can die off. It is not going to die off while it remains underground. Abuse victims need justice. 
    And it is disgusting that parents of the SSPX abuse victims were assured that the abusing priests would be kept away from children from now on, and instead, the abusers were sent to be around other children!  Terrible! The poor parents are thinking that the horror of their child being abused and the major stress of getting their child's abuse experience exposed to SSPX authorities will at least result in some good - other children being safe! But no, not even that. The SSPX hire-ups lied to them, placating that they would ensure the safety of future children.  Yes, that sin entrenched in SSPX really needs to get out from under the ground, and Voris and CM are heroically doing that.
    SSPX has two happenings that make SSPX a place for abuse to continue to thrive: 1) They actively doing now what they always have done - working to keep the abuse underground - prioritizing that over and above fixing the problem. They have been successful in that grossly sinful endeavor (til now).  2) There is too much unquestioning respect for hierarchy, who thrive and hide in that human respect, and they embrace lack of transparency and an entitlement not to repent or do reparation for their sin. 
    I doubt you have a good reason to suspect that Voris wants to "get rid of" SSPX. I have never seen that in him. Possibly he doesn't approve of SSPX, but if that is the case, he would just say so, since he's not afraid to say what he thinks. 
    It is unjust for you to say that he "is" a homesɛҳuąƖ. How can you possibly know that? We only know he used be immersed in ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ sin - that is all you can can know of that, unless you have some special, other knowledge to share. He looks EVERYTHING like a repented, changed man to me. Our God is able to make all things new, when one's will cooperates with His grace. Do you have special knowledge proving God did not make Voris new in this way? I think instead you are making assumptions (uncharitably and without evidence).  Think about Mary Magdalene, immersed in a life of prostitution, and only a year later - or two? - she is the one Jesus praises for having "picked the better part", and the first one (besides His Mother) Jesus appeared to after His Resurrection. 
    Voris is not a Narcissist. I know a GREAT DEAL about Narcissist Personality Disorder, having studied it deeply and extensively over a long period of time, a result of having a full-blown actual one in my life a very long time. I can identify NPD in people pretty readily. People can have Narcissistic traits, though, without being one, and we see plenty of that in this very Narcissistic culture we live in. In fact, everyone needs some narcissist traits in order to survive in society. (This is what they say. Perhaps some Saints manage without.) I could discuss that more in depth but it's probably not needed.
    As for a personal animus, I know what you are saying there, but I am not seeing that. And it is the sort of thing I would notice.
    I can see why people would jump to judgment on Voris, and assume he has a hidden animus, and try to find a label for his zealous confidence. It is natural to mistrust someone who comes on so strong and so direct.  I have met him in person and I have attended a couple lectures he gave, and he is always the same Michael. And in person or recorded, I have never found any bone to pick with - I always end up struck that he spoke the truth. However, it was always much later an underlying mistrust would nag at me. Then I watched the TnT interview video I will post below, and my doubts left for good. Everything made sense. 
    In this interview I saw that Voris always was the same person we see today. How many elementary kids do you know who get the idea on their own - and carry it out - to visit all the classrooms in their school as a sole visiting lecturer to teach their classmates about horrors of abortion?  And, he was a multiple-grammy award winning secular investigative reporter for many years. What wse see today is simply a man pouring the particular talents and disposition God gave him into service of our Church. So everything about him now totally made sense.  
    Also a missing puzzle piece for me, as I tendd to seek to understand people's psychological motivations -- How could he speak so well of his Dad AND have become gαy? Doesn't fit with what I know about folks with that bent. Well, he gives his family history and that all makes sense now.  So, after this very illuminating video, I don't mistrust him any more, at all (and he honestly never gave me any real reason to). He is simply what he says and appears to be, an investigative reporter seeking to expose lies and falsehoods. And he is a true brother in Christ.
    This is long, but very, very interesting. I watched it twice. Maybe sometime when you have some extra time staying at home, you'll watch it! :laugh1:

     
    And the peace of God, which surpasseth all understanding, keep your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus.


    Offline Eliza10

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    Re: Little crack in my SSPX wall
    « Reply #8 on: April 24, 2020, 07:28:57 PM »
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  • Of course they have.  Church's enemies perfected the art of infiltration over the course of a couple hundred years and finally pulled off Vatican II.  To infiltrate the SSPX would be relatively simple by comparison.  If you were an intelligent seminarian who knew two or three languages, you were immediately fast-tracked to a leadership position in the SSPX.
    This is an entirely plausible (and probable) explanation.

    It also explains why the good priest Marshall interviews in the OP has a furrowed brow. I wondered about that. It must be tough for the priest to his vocation and to SSPX to see this all happening.
    And the peace of God, which surpasseth all understanding, keep your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Little crack in my SSPX wall
    « Reply #9 on: April 24, 2020, 08:02:25 PM »
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  • I am going to listen to the Fr. Wathen sermon because I do want to begin getting an understanding of SSPX - who get credit for the existence of my beautiful ICSPKP parish, and who deserves admiration for continuing during COVID with the sacraments. And I do want to learn more about ABL, and may get a biography next. At the moment, I am swamped with online teaching so can't give it a lot of thought at this time. That ends in June though.
    Meg, I can't agree with your opinion here. I think Michael Voris is above board, and is simply what we see - a zealous investigative reporter, devoted to getting the truth out. I admire that mission, because the truth sets you free.  I think he and the rest of CM see the truth that this abuse scandal being underground is what has made it thrive, and they are taking it upon themselves to expose it so that it can die off. It is not going to die off while it remains underground. Abuse victims need justice.
    And it is disgusting that parents of the SSPX abuse victims were assured that the abusing priests would be kept away from children from now on, and instead, the abusers were sent to be around other children!  Terrible! The poor parents are thinking that the horror of their child being abused and the major stress of getting their child's abuse experience exposed to SSPX authorities will at least result in some good - other children being safe! But no, not even that. The SSPX hire-ups lied to them, placating that they would ensure the safety of future children.  Yes, that sin entrenched in SSPX really needs to get out from under the ground, and Voris and CM are heroically doing that.
    SSPX has two happenings that make SSPX a place for abuse to continue to thrive: 1) They actively doing now what they always have done - working to keep the abuse underground - prioritizing that over and above fixing the problem. They have been successful in that grossly sinful endeavor (til now).  2) There is too much unquestioning respect for hierarchy, who thrive and hide in that human respect, and they embrace lack of transparency and an entitlement not to repent or do reparation for their sin.
    I doubt you have a good reason to suspect that Voris wants to "get rid of" SSPX. I have never seen that in him. Possibly he doesn't approve of SSPX, but if that is the case, he would just say so, since he's not afraid to say what he thinks.
    It is unjust for you to say that he "is" a homesɛҳuąƖ. How can you possibly know that? We only know he used be immersed in ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ sin - that is all you can can know of that, unless you have some special, other knowledge to share. He looks EVERYTHING like a repented, changed man to me. Our God is able to make all things new, when one's will cooperates with His grace. Do you have special knowledge proving God did not make Voris new in this way? I think instead you are making assumptions (uncharitably and without evidence).  Think about Mary Magdalene, immersed in a life of prostitution, and only a year later - or two? - she is the one Jesus praises for having "picked the better part", and the first one (besides His Mother) Jesus appeared to after His Resurrection.
    Voris is not a Narcissist. I know a GREAT DEAL about Narcissist Personality Disorder, having studied it deeply and extensively over a long period of time, a result of having a full-blown actual one in my life a very long time. I can identify NPD in people pretty readily. People can have Narcissistic traits, though, without being one, and we see plenty of that in this very Narcissistic culture we live in. In fact, everyone needs some narcissist traits in order to survive in society. (This is what they say. Perhaps some Saints manage without.) I could discuss that more in depth but it's probably not needed.
    As for a personal animus, I know what you are saying there, but I am not seeing that. And it is the sort of thing I would notice.
    I can see why people would jump to judgment on Voris, and assume he has a hidden animus, and try to find a label for his zealous confidence. It is natural to mistrust someone who comes on so strong and so direct.  I have met him in person and I have attended a couple lectures he gave, and he is always the same Michael. And in person or recorded, I have never found any bone to pick with - I always end up struck that he spoke the truth. However, it was always much later an underlying mistrust would nag at me. Then I watched the TnT interview video I will post below, and my doubts left for good. Everything made sense.
    In this interview I saw that Voris always was the same person we see today. How many elementary kids do you know who get the idea on their own - and carry it out - to visit all the classrooms in their school as a sole visiting lecturer to teach their classmates about horrors of abortion?  And, he was a multiple-grammy award winning secular investigative reporter for many years. What wse see today is simply a man pouring the particular talents and disposition God gave him into service of our Church. So everything about him now totally made sense.  
    Also a missing puzzle piece for me, as I tendd to seek to understand people's psychological motivations -- How could he speak so well of his Dad AND have become gαy? Doesn't fit with what I know about folks with that bent. Well, he gives his family history and that all makes sense now.  So, after this very illuminating video, I don't mistrust him any more, at all (and he honestly never gave me any real reason to). He is simply what he says and appears to be, an investigative reporter seeking to expose lies and falsehoods. And he is a true brother in Christ.
    This is long, but very, very interesting. I watched it twice. Maybe sometime when you have some extra time staying at home, you'll watch it! :laugh1:

     

    How I miss that 'rolling eyes' emoticon. 

    Can we PLEASE bring it back?
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Eliza10

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    Re: Little crack in my SSPX wall
    « Reply #10 on: April 24, 2020, 08:11:48 PM »
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  • I meant to say, a priest loyal to his vocation.
    And the peace of God, which surpasseth all understanding, keep your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus.


    Offline Eliza10

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    Re: Little crack in my SSPX wall
    « Reply #11 on: April 24, 2020, 08:12:38 PM »
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  • How I miss that 'rolling eyes' emoticon.

    Can we PLEASE bring it back?
    Wow.  Okay, Meg, Got ya. 
    And the peace of God, which surpasseth all understanding, keep your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus.

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Little crack in my SSPX wall
    « Reply #12 on: April 24, 2020, 10:29:21 PM »
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  • Sure is confusing.
    It might be less confusing if you have have less to say, and learn to listen to those who are not confused. Take time out to meditate on the great Truths of the Faith and learn to relax and depend on God, instead of letting your mind run in circles.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    +RIP 2024

    Offline Eliza10

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    Re: Little crack in my SSPX wall
    « Reply #13 on: April 24, 2020, 10:49:46 PM »
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  • It might be less confusing if you have have less to say, and learn to listen to those who are not confused. Take time out to meditate on the great Truths of the Faith and learn to relax and depend on God, instead of letting your mind run in circles.
    Maybe you are right Nadir.
     
    And the peace of God, which surpasseth all understanding, keep your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus.

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Little crack in my SSPX wall
    « Reply #14 on: April 25, 2020, 05:08:49 AM »
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  • Meg, I can't agree with your opinion here. I think Michael Voris is above board, and is simply what we see - a zealous investigative reporter, devoted to getting the truth out. I admire that mission, because the truth sets you free.  I think he and the rest of CM see the truth that this abuse scandal being underground is what has made it thrive, and they are taking it upon themselves to expose it so that it can die off. It is not going to die off while it remains underground. Abuse victims need justice.
    Michael Voris is at best, misguided, at worst, he is on a mission to do his part to slander the SSPX with most vile accusations, these accusations I remind you, cannot be proven without third party eyewitnesses or admission of guilt from the guilty party. The only purpose his accusations serve is the calumniation of everyone in the SSPX and by extension, all traditional Catholics - this is reality.

    In all likely hood it's easy enough to conclude, being that at one time he broadcasted that he was himself a flame throwing queer, that he was himself one who was guilty of being an abuser. Based on what he himself publicly and officially confessed of his own past, and based on his being entrenched in the conciliar faith most of his life, it is also easy enough to conclude that he, like all liberals everywhere, has a deep-seated detestation against those striving to persevere in the true, untainted traditional Catholic faith.

    Do not be fooled by him Eliza, although he does speak much truth mixed in with his liberal lies, even if what he says is true as regards the abuse, he is most certainly one of the wolves in sheep's clothing who is doing what he can to scatter, kill and destroy sheep, under the guise of a warning.  

       

       
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse