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Author Topic: Life as a Seminarian was like movie Platoon  (Read 44644 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Life as a Seminarian was like movie Platoon
« Reply #75 on: August 15, 2014, 01:32:23 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    Only a chastisement would be sufficient to get everyone to shut off their gadgets long enough to think about Eternity and the state of their souls. Everyone is engrossed in distractions and pleasure -- how can even a saint compete with that?
    ...
    Never has there been a turnaround after a situation as dire as this one. The world is now worse than it was before the Flood. And even though there have been turnarounds before, they have always involved a chastisement like the Black Death. It's simply the way things work.


    Indeed, Matthew, but the lack of a chastisement IS the chastisement.  God is Love, and chastisements are in fact a great expression of His love, just like any loving parent might spank a child for his own good (despite being hard to do).  Unlike human parents, of course, God doesn't lose His cool.  God's chastisements have always been His greatest mercies.  Whenever there's suffering, a war, a crisis, a famine, the once-empty churches suddenly fill with people on their knees, and they realize their need for God.  But at some point the parent might just give up and say, "There's nothing more I can do.  This child is just doing to do what he's going to do, no matter how much I try to intervene."  That's where I'm afraid the world has gotten to, where God won't even bring a chastisement upon the world because He knows it's gotten so corrupt and evil that it most likely wouldn't help.  Instead of seeking God and repenting, humanity would only collectively curse His Holy Name.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Life as a Seminarian was like movie Platoon
    « Reply #76 on: August 15, 2014, 01:42:16 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: Matthew
    Only a chastisement would be sufficient to get everyone to shut off their gadgets long enough to think about Eternity and the state of their souls. Everyone is engrossed in distractions and pleasure -- how can even a saint compete with that?
    ...
    Never has there been a turnaround after a situation as dire as this one. The world is now worse than it was before the Flood. And even though there have been turnarounds before, they have always involved a chastisement like the Black Death. It's simply the way things work.


    Indeed, Matthew, but the lack of a chastisement IS the chastisement.  God is Love, and chastisements are in fact a great expression of His love, just like any loving parent might spank a child for his own good (despite being hard to do).  Unlike human parents, of course, God doesn't lose His cool.  God's chastisements have always been His greatest mercies.  Whenever there's suffering, a war, a crisis, a famine, the once-empty churches suddenly fill with people on their knees, and they realize their need for God.  But at some point the parent might just give up and say, "There's nothing more I can do.  This child is just doing to do what he's going to do, no matter how much I try to intervene."  That's where I'm afraid the world has gotten to, where God won't even bring a chastisement upon the world because He knows it's gotten so corrupt and evil that it most likely wouldn't help.  Instead of seeking God and repenting, humanity would only collectively curse His Holy Name.


    Probably the worst chastisement is when God precisely does not do anything at all; but leaves free way to this damned race of Adam, by depriving them from His grace and letting them fall in free spiral. Tainted with original sin and pride of life, there is absolutely nothing but abyss and hollowness, that can be expected from humankind without God's help.  
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline Matthew

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    Life as a Seminarian was like movie Platoon
    « Reply #77 on: August 15, 2014, 01:42:40 PM »
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  • Quote from: Columba
    You are saying we need a catastrophe to propagate the faith, and therefore should expect one? The former is objectively false and the latter is hubris.


    You keep saying hubris -- "stick and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me."

    So what are you saying, basically? What are YOU doing to turn this around? Do you cut electric cables, blow up cell towers, go in peoples' houses and sabotage their electronics, or what? How do YOU get people to pay attention to the Catholic message (the Gospel)?

    Because I'm here to tell you that most people just DON'T CARE. You could have the most awesome, organized conference at your local Trad Chapel, but most people would just take off after Mass anyhow. Or even if they attended, they probably wouldn't take it to heart. People are too well programmed by mainstream TV to embrace pure Catholic culture and attitudes at this point.

    And what's all this talk about "Inquisition" (rather than "The Inquisition") -- are you saying we need to torture people to get them to convert, or what? We need to violently overthrow our government, or what?

    Spit it out, man.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Life as a Seminarian was like movie Platoon
    « Reply #78 on: August 15, 2014, 01:50:58 PM »
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  • Another point --

    My family is integrally Catholic. That is to say, our Catholicism is 7-days-a- week. You wouldn't be scandalized if you followed us home after Mass. The girls' dresses don't come off once we get home. They wear them all the time. We don't have a TV. We teach our kids the Faith from an early age. Our kids know their prayers. We don't eat meat on Friday -- both inside and outside of Lent. We attend Mass on all Sundays and Holy Days. And so forth.

    And yet, my integrally Catholic family has very few friends at our SSPX chapel of 200+ people. Sure, there are some -- some acquaintances and those we get along with. But most people either live too far away and/or aren't interested in forming close friendships with us.

    The million-dollar question: Why?

    One might say that our Catholic family is a microcosm of the Catholic Faith. How many people are interested in becoming "estranged" from The World? Not many. We are certainly estranged from it -- which is why we have few friends. That's my theory, at least.

    I'll admit -- I'm not a social butterfly and neither is my wife. So part of the problem is our own melancholic temperaments, and I'll admit that. But we're friendly to everyone, and we USED to be friends with 2 different young families there several years ago. So our introverted natures didn't stop us then! But they both moved away to St. Mary's, KS, and we haven't really had any friends there (in the same state of life, I mean) since.

    Part of the problem is that my wife and I both *know* that some families just aren't that similar to our own. Either they send their kids to public school (that's a HUGE difference right there), both parents work, or something along those lines. It's hard for an orange to be friends with an apple. Human friendships have to be formed on something in common. The Faith is something, but if the entire rest of your life is 100% different -- then what?

    Some people just aren't cut out to be friends. Very sad, but true. There is one family in particular that bothers me to no end, because we just don't get along. (My Irish heritage teaches me to be affable and get along with everyone. My father (R.I.P.) was that way.) Anyhow, I could list a dozen things we have in common, but our personalities just clash too much for some reason. And I'll admit there are differences, too, and I suppose those differences do outweigh the similarities.

    It reminds me of trying to form friendships based on "we both have the same disease or disorder". Ok, now what? You're still just a stranger, even if we both have _____ Syndrome.

    Also, it reminds me of trying to pair up young Trads for marriage. Sure, you both go to this particular Mass in Latin every Sunday. But beyond that? What are your lives like? Your family culture? Your interests? Your attitudes towards work/family roles/money/entertainment/TV/swimming/you name it? They could all be night & day different, even though you both go to the same church.

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    Offline Elizabeth

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    Life as a Seminarian was like movie Platoon
    « Reply #79 on: August 15, 2014, 01:51:53 PM »
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  • Quote from: Himagain


    I certainly felt the same despairing rage (among other things) reading this as I did reading "Good Bye, Good Men" years ago.  


    Same here, but it's not a good place to be (as I well know).

    The only way to stay reasonably sane is to offer good for evil.  Looks as if our Author is doing this by teaching, and sharing his story with people who truly understand and empathize.  


    Offline Matthew

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    Life as a Seminarian was like movie Platoon
    « Reply #80 on: August 15, 2014, 03:36:10 PM »
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  • How exactly do we "restore uncompromised Catholic unity"? The "uncompromised" is the easy part. Getting everyone else on board, especially Trads (who each have their own divergent ideas) is another matter.

    How are we going to FORCE all Catholics of good will to be united?

    Another point -- Men like the author of this story put his money where his mouth is. He joined the most uncompromising organization at the time, full of Catholic ideals. The ONLY WAY to convert men -- one at a time, or en masse -- is to first sanctify yourself. That allows God to work through you. Money can't convert people; neither can numbers. Neither can flashy buildings. Only holiness is capable of drawing people to Christ. Holy Catholic priests can work an immense amount of good.

    Remember the devil's quote, "If there were only three men like you (the Cure of Ars) on earth, my kingdom would be undone."

    It's not the author's fault he picked the wrong spiritual director and eventually got railroaded out on account of politics. He was on the right path. He was doing all a mere man could do in this fight against principalities and powers.

    You think you have a better way (the Inquisition), which has me scratching my head. I guess you torture each member of your new organization, getting them to confess if they're a plant, Marrano, or subversive? Give me a break.

    Do you think the SSPX was designed to be infiltrated? If it could happen to them, it could happen to any group. Let's see...it happened to the Roman Catholic Church; Christ's One and Only. You think you can do better than Christ?

    You were saying about Hubris?...


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    Offline Matthew

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    Life as a Seminarian was like movie Platoon
    « Reply #81 on: August 15, 2014, 05:15:12 PM »
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  • You have been intentionally vague about what you mean by the "Inquisition worldview".

    What do you mean? Don't mince words. If you're talking about torture, just say torture. If you mean excluding all those with Jєωιѕн heritage or connections, say so. Whatever you mean, just spill it.

    Because I have no idea what exactly you're getting at.

    Of course the devil owns "his own" and they do hold most power in the world today. I am a firm believer in the тαℓмυdic Jєωιѕн "those who say they are Jews but are not, but are the ѕуηαgσgυє of satan" conspiracy. Many of those at the highest levels actually worship the evil one and offer foul, unholy sacrifices to same.

    How to get Trads to unite and fight the devil is the ten million dollar question that no one seems to be able to answer.

    You're not coming up with anything novel here. This is a big "no duh!" question.
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    Offline Centroamerica

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    Life as a Seminarian was like movie Platoon
    « Reply #82 on: August 20, 2014, 11:30:37 PM »
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  • Excellent post Matthew. A friend asked me if I had read this post or I would have never noticed it. I am only to part IV, so I'll have to finish later. I saw and prayed at the tomb of the drowned seminarian a few years back so it was easy to put the story into context.
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Life as a Seminarian was like movie Platoon
    « Reply #83 on: August 21, 2014, 05:35:12 AM »
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  • .

    I know, this was a lot of pages ago, but it's about something important to me.

    For those of us who know new seminarians about to enter Winona, how does this all relate to what they ought to know before going in?  

    That is to say, for those who have already made up their mind and are committed to going there, Winona, and won't be considering any alternative (if they think there is one, somewhere), what should we tell them, or what should we print out for them?

    Would reading this be to their benefit, in your opinion, or, would reading this OP story be something that could cause them trouble once they get started?

    Post
    Quote from: Matthew
    Quote from: Ekim
    Thanks Matthew, I was playing. Devils advocate.   It would be interesting yo know however, if recent seminarians would relate the same type of story.

    Of course they would NOT relate anything close to the same type of story.

    What you have in this story is a transition period. Seminarians who studied under +W were purged, based on how "influenced" they had been by the good Bishop, and how malleable they were to the new ways.

    That was part of it. The other part was the vice-rector's political power plays. That vice rector is no longer there, so obviously all that drama is a thing of the past.

    Right now, all the seminarians there have been formed according to a new ideal from day one, with a given leadership in place. So there won't be any other crises, drastic changes, 180 degree turns, or whiplash for now.

    Just like there is no crisis/change/whiplash in Novus Ordo churches today. The drastic changes have long been implemented! Those who were shocked by the New Mass, or those who faced a crisis of conscience have long since left.


    I'm glad I found this post, above, because it serves somewhat as an introduction, inasmuch as it answers a question that the story itself does not address.  

    Any new seminarian at Winona should know this intro material before reading the OP, IMHO.

    .
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Matthew

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    Life as a Seminarian was like movie Platoon
    « Reply #84 on: August 24, 2014, 09:42:36 PM »
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  • Quote from: wallflower

    I haven't read the thread yet but have gotten this far. I printed the story to read offline but if this is his view the whole time I'm not sure it will be a good read. I am sure there is a lot of truth to it in some ways but this little preview shows a very humanist view of vocations.

    No one is ever "good enough". It's not a matter of us being worthy or not.

    Wisdom is viewing the world and ourselves from God's perspective and I am just not seeing that in the way he expresses himself. It seems to be all about ME and what IVE invested, others being better or worse than ME, and when it's "over" for ME etc... So far it's a letdown from the way I have viewed my own experience and from the way I've heard others speak of theirs. I don't know that I can handle reading 16 pages of such a self-centered recitation.

    Perhaps he has grown since then and is only reciting how he felt at that time? I hope so.


    I'd like to know from what other perspective, exactly, one can write memoirs or an autobiography...

    He can't write this story from the rector's perspective, my perspective, a 10 year old boy's perspective, or any perspective other than himself!

    Let's be realistic.

    And yes, he has a point. A vocation shouldn't be THIS mysterious. Read the whole thing -- he makes a lot of very good points. You don't have 5 men, all of whom are dedicated, intelligent, have a sufficiently solid spiritual life, etc. and none of them ended up being "called". You also don't have a 95% attrition rate from a given class.

    "God only calls some.", "You can never know for sure that you have a vocation", etc. is only a handy excuse for power plays and politics on the part of the authorities. Whether it's a vice-rector that enjoys power trips (as in this story), or ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs in power (like in Good Bye, Good Men), it boils down to the same injustices against men with very real vocations.
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    Offline wallflower

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    Life as a Seminarian was like movie Platoon
    « Reply #85 on: August 25, 2014, 06:12:37 AM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    Quote from: wallflower

    I haven't read the thread yet but have gotten this far. I printed the story to read offline but if this is his view the whole time I'm not sure it will be a good read. I am sure there is a lot of truth to it in some ways but this little preview shows a very humanist view of vocations.

    No one is ever "good enough". It's not a matter of us being worthy or not.

    Wisdom is viewing the world and ourselves from God's perspective and I am just not seeing that in the way he expresses himself. It seems to be all about ME and what IVE invested, others being better or worse than ME, and when it's "over" for ME etc... So far it's a letdown from the way I have viewed my own experience and from the way I've heard others speak of theirs. I don't know that I can handle reading 16 pages of such a self-centered recitation.

    Perhaps he has grown since then and is only reciting how he felt at that time? I hope so.


    I'd like to know from what other perspective, exactly, one can write memoirs or an autobiography...

    He can't write this story from the rector's perspective, my perspective, a 10 year old boy's perspective, or any perspective other than himself!

    Let's be realistic.

    And yes, he has a point. A vocation shouldn't be THIS mysterious. Read the whole thing -- he makes a lot of very good points. You don't have 5 men, all of whom are dedicated, intelligent, have a sufficiently solid spiritual life, etc. and none of them ended up being "called". You also don't have a 95% attrition rate from a given class.

    "God only calls some.", "You can never know for sure that you have a vocation", etc. is only a handy excuse for power plays and politics on the part of the authorities. Whether it's a vice-rector that enjoys power trips (as in this story), or ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs in power (like in Good Bye, Good Men), it boils down to the same injustices against men with very real vocations.


    I am reading it and got through the first few pages last night.

    What I mean by God's perspective vs a self-centered perspective is that in retrospect we ought to be able to pinpoint what actions God was taking in our souls at different points in our lives.

    For example, my husband and I are reading Joy in Suffering right now. She often states that it was Providence that such and such happened while such and such was happening; that this particular suffering caused the growth of this or that virtue; or that this weakness made her susceptible to that fall etc... It's what makes the tales of the saints not only disturbing for the pain and suffering they've endured but also uplifting for the way they see the supernatural side of it all.   It's not something that is put on, it is so engrained in the way they view their lives and sufferings that it just comes out  naturally in the way they tell their stories. Once you're used to thinking that way at all times, you notice when it's missing.

    However I made that comment, hoping that all those pages weren't like the 3 paragraphs you quoted. Already in the beginning he speaks to being too idealistic so I have hope that there will be glimpses of objectivity throughout.





    Offline Matthew

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    « Reply #86 on: August 25, 2014, 04:22:12 PM »
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  • Quote from: wallflower

    However I made that comment, hoping that all those pages weren't like the 3 paragraphs you quoted. Already in the beginning he speaks to being too idealistic so I have hope that there will be glimpses of objectivity throughout.


    Believe me, he's quite objective and he's had many years to think about this whole experience. Talk to me again after you've read the whole thing, including the Epilogue.

    It's only fair to read/watch that which you're critiquing.

    After all, what value is my "review" of vacationing in France if I've never been there? Less than zero.


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    Offline Matthew

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    Life as a Seminarian was like movie Platoon
    « Reply #87 on: August 25, 2014, 04:29:56 PM »
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  • By the way, here's a graphic showing the path jogged in the early A.M. by the protagonist of the story.

    The red X is the "bottom of the hill" and the seminary is marked with the red Google Maps marker.

    It gives you some idea of the distance.

    It also gives you a bit of the idyllic, rural surroundings of the seminary. Look at all the green! The immediate surroundings, at least. You couldn't hear or see the nearby city of Winona at all. One never heard any police sirens, etc.
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    Offline wallflower

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    « Reply #88 on: August 26, 2014, 11:37:15 AM »
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  • Very interesting read. I finally finished, at the expense of morning dishes.   :smirk:  Most of the observations that I had while reading were well summarized in the end. That was good to see. He had my eyes welling up by then. That's the clearer-mindedness and edification/resolution that I hoped would be there.

    I do find it interesting that he inadvertently confirms many claims of the resistants by describing the "purge", and wishes they had simply been told it was going in a new direction, that old molds were not welcome. It is telling that it comes from someone not involved with the resistance.

    The politics that were there before, are there now and likely always be there is nothing new. Disappointing, disheartening, damaging, but not new. Not for the SSPX and not for any Order under the sun at any time in history.

    As for wasted vocations, it's a tough theory to prove. I have a different take from what seems to be popular here. I don't doubt there are some who fell victim to the new brand the SSPX is looking for, but I do not believe it applies to this particular author. His issues began immediately, years before the change and I believe they reflect a forced vocation rather than a wasted one. As much as individualistic modern man hates conformity, it is necessary, especially in this kind of environment. He simply could not adapt and in retrospect that ought to be obvious to him. This is not something bad about him, it is simply a fact and it can be a sure sign of not having a vocation.

    There is no mathematical formula to having a vocation to the religious life. I say this as someone who can relate to the torture of "limbo", the instability of not knowing my state in life and grappling with it similarly. From the age of 15 until I met my husband, not ONE teacher/superior/director (and I had a few) was able to give me straight-forward direction on whether or not I had a vocation. Yet those same people were very accurate and insightful about others. I was very confusing to them, as I was to myself, for some unknown reason. I had all the qualities they were looking for spiritually and mentally but when it came down to living the life, I withered. I simply wasn't suited to it and I looked at a few places. In the end I do much better making my home my cloister. A person can easily have good qualities yet still not necessarily have a vocation. A person can WANT a vocation with every fiber of their being and not necessarily have a vocation. And we all know that person who did NOT want a vocation yet has one! It's a surprising and seemingly illogical business and always will be.

    That's what jumped out at me from every page. If they did him any great injustice it was in keeping him longer than they should have. But even then, he says frankly that he went in distrustful, that he did not open up to his spiritual director and that he sometimes passive-aggressively and othertimes openly resisted him. He also admits several times that he went back with the wrong intentions. How could he possibly think that would end well?

    The standoff between him and his spiritual director is very unhealthy but I have to reserve judgment on that since I will never hear the other side of that story. As much as he speaks of honesty and integrity, I don't see that in the way he handled himself. He ought to have said everything clearly and taken the consequences of being deemed unfit or of "bad spirit"  (if that's what was going to happen) or left of his own accord. Presenting only half of himself for fear of losing his dream of having a vocation was deceptive and put his superiors at a great disadvantage for clear discernment and proper guidance. I would bet the horror stories go both ways there.

    I also have difficulty with his perspective that everyone was feeling the way he did or if they didn't they were simply repressed or had no character. His idea of having "character" is largely based on his own larger than life character and his idea of "active" is overly physically based.  Not everyone has his extremely high strung energy and I would bet that many find the seminary life to be quite "active", if they aren't obsessed with a physical interpretation of the word. There are active souls and active minds.  A little bit of recess, some daily chores, that's about what most of us get, whether in the seminary or not. And the seminary is a dedicated intellectual pursuit. It would be odd for them not to be focused 100% on studies and be exercising hours a day.

    Not only that but he admits that being larger than life, he could not handle himself. Yet he resisted help. How could that possibly have transitioned well into priesthood? Was all of this turmoil going to magically disappear with Ordination? Somehow I doubt it. Ordination, like marriage, is when the real work begins. If he could not handle SSPX seminary, I doubt he could have handled SSPX priesthood. That's where I think Ladislaus has a good point. In other times there were mutiple choices which could suit all different types. Now it's pretty slim picking. If you don't suit one or two choices, you're out of the game. I don't consider those lost vocations though. God put us in the here and now knowing full well what the situation is. To my mind it means there is no vocation present. Otherwise we'd be saying that He gives vocations where there is no way of materializing them. That would be especially cruel.

    He should have seen a psychiatrist. He took that as an insult but if seminary life was driving him crazy, which it clearly was, (and I say this as someone who would go crazy in the convent, not as someone pointing a finger) it would have helped for them to know if he had any underlying condition or if it truly was just the life that was too much for him. I don't see this as the psychological weapon he thinks it was. Reacting badly to the life IS one of the ways that the lack of vocation can manifest itself. It doesn't mean he is crazy or bad-willed. Neither does it take away that he is gifted and magnanimous. It simply means no vocation to the SSPX. But since he was bent on having a vocation no matter what....this was just another way that he could block their ability to discern. (As a side note even if he had had a condition it is not necessarily an impediment. It depends on the condition and its treatment. There is at least one SSPX priest that I know of with a family condition, who broke down in seminary yet was ordained after a few years of sabbatical.)    

    As for the favorites thing, it seems natural that he would catch their attention if he is as gifted as he is. They would be robotic and not human if they didn't notice and pay attention to his potential. It seems like they'd be damned if they did and damned if they didn't try to accomodate his individuality as much as they could. One of his greatest complaints is about conformity yet it's clear by his own account that they tried several different ways to help him adapt. He had a voracious mind, they fed it. He needed more exercise, they let him run. He was breaking down, they let him skip a class. He needed more time to talk, they let him see his director more often. If these accomodations made him feel worse, it is not their fault for trying. Nor is it necessarily his fault either. Again, to me that simply underlines a lack of vocation, with them at least.

    That's not to say that someone with a vocation breezes through. They all have enemies, witness injustices, are stung by meanness and other sins committed by their superiors and classmates etc... but they receive the graces to get through it and grow, even if it seems impossible at first. In this case, the author either didn't receive those graces as a sign that he wasn't meant to be there or he rejected them. I have difficulty believing he rejected them. I think he was good-willed and very generous, it just wasn't for him.

    I feel for the torment he went through. It is not an easy way to go. It would be much easier to be told yea or nay right off the bat. But it's not always that simple. Sometimes we get in our own way and in His wisdom God allows it. Othertimes we do everything right and still God allows us to "fail". I don't know what his intentions are in putting this out for the public but it takes a lot of courage to make oneself so vulnerable. It cannot have been easy for him to relive it all in writing it down. I really hope that getting it all out on paper is cleasing for him.


    Offline Matthew

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    Life as a Seminarian was like movie Platoon
    « Reply #89 on: August 26, 2014, 11:55:28 AM »
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  • I would just like to ask Wallflower something:

    Were all (95%) of my class "crazy", "too high strung", "didn't have a vocation"?
    Were 100% of the next class in those categories?

    And did God suddenly decide to send tons of true vocations to the succeeding years, who JUST SO HAPPENED to join the seminary after Fr. Le Roux got there and the vice-rector was transferred?

    Sorry, I don't buy it.

    And, most importantly , there is a gulf as wide as the Pacific Ocean between the author of this story (larger than life, more energy than a nuclear reactor) and the phlegmatic "cookie cutter" priests coming out of the Seminary these past several years. The latter are almost indistinguishable from one another.

    Most SSPX priests would fall somewhere in between. But it's undeniable that a new kind of priest has been coming out of the seminary for the past 10 years.

    Having too much personality is one thing. But I'll tell you this: most SSPX priests (ordained before, say, 2003) had a lot more personality. They didn't have to be "colorful characters" to be something more than a robot.
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