Author Topic: Letter of Menzingen- new (Read 14850 times)

Philomena · « **Reply #15 on:** June 25, 2012, 05:18:32 PM »

Quote from: Clelia

He was deprived (if indeed that is possible) of membership in The Chapter; not The Catholic Church, as I read it.

I looked up the canon cited on vatican.va ...

Can. 1373 A person who publicly incites among subjects animosities or hatred against the Apostolic See or an ordinary because of some act of power or ecclesiastical ministry or provokes subjects to disobey them is to be punished by an interdict or other just penalties.

So yes, he is being deprived of attending the Chapter, nothing said about being deprived of membership in the Church.

Although that's not to say his enemies would love for that to be the case.

santafe · « **Reply #16 on:** June 25, 2012, 05:41:18 PM »

Quote from: Philomena

Quote from: Clelia
He was deprived (if indeed that is possible) of membership in The Chapter; not The Catholic Church, as I read it.

I looked up the canon cited on vatican.va ...

Can. 1373 A person who publicly incites among subjects animosities or hatred against the Apostolic See or an ordinary because of some act of power or ecclesiastical ministry or provokes subjects to disobey them is to be punished by an interdict or other just penalties.

So yes, he is being deprived of attending the Chapter, nothing said about being deprived of membership in the Church.

Although that's not to say his enemies would love for that to be the case.

A couple of things: First, this canon applies to an Ordinary, not the head of a Pius Union, which is what the Society was erected as canonically. Thus, this is no proof of anything except perhaps delusions of grandeur.

Second, Pope Benedict already said that Bishop Williamson never was part of the "greater"Church, and thus never converted to Catholicism, only to the Society. Thus, in fact, the Pope is saying that he is not a member. Now, of course, this is rubbish since Bishop Williamson converted not in the Society, but was received by a priest who was not even a traditionalist. This shows that the Pope is either woefully unread on the matter, or that he is being less than truthful.

Philomena · « **Reply #17 on:** June 25, 2012, 05:46:50 PM »

Agreed. I posted earlier on this thread the words of Father Domenico who states it's either an illegal action, or they have already signed a deal:

Quote from: fr.domenico

The canons in the 1917 Code are, like the 1983 Code directed to those who conspire against the Pope or their proper Ordinary. The Head of a Pious Union is not an Ordinary. This would only be if he was, in fact, already the head of a personal prelature given by Rome. So, it is either an illegal action, or he has already signed a deal.

As to the Dominicans and Franciscans, that is simply making up the law as you go along.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #18 on:** June 25, 2012, 05:52:10 PM »

Quote

A couple of things: First, this canon applies to an Ordinary, not the head of a Pius Union, which is what the Society was erected as canonically. Thus, this is no proof of anything except perhaps delusions of grandeur.

Canon Law according to the SSPX is what they want to say it is when they say it.

They never should have ventured into trying to justify their "parallel" "jurisdiction" with Canon Law.

TKGS · « **Reply #19 on:** June 25, 2012, 07:24:01 PM »

I know I can be slow on the uptake, sometimes. Is this docuмent authentic? If so, how does this affect Bishop Williamson's status within the Society?

Sigismund · « **Reply #20 on:** June 25, 2012, 07:39:24 PM »

Quote from: Clint

Quote
in virtue of Canon 2331, Paragraph 1 and 2 (New Code 1373) the Superior General has deprived Msgr. Williamson of his office as member of the Chapter

Isn't this the same code of canon law that deprives the SSPX of membership in the Catholic Church?

Indeed.

And now, what will Bishop Williamson do?

Roman55 · « **Reply #21 on:** June 25, 2012, 07:44:30 PM »

Quote from: Sigismund

Quote from: Clint
Quote
in virtue of Canon 2331, Paragraph 1 and 2 (New Code 1373) the Superior General has deprived Msgr. Williamson of his office as member of the Chapter

Isn't this the same code of canon law that deprives the SSPX of membership in the Catholic Church?

Indeed.

And now, what will Bishop Williamson do?

I'm going to take my chances on this one: Based on third party talk, I understand he can have quite an impact on this (he already has). That 'sheriff ain't out of bullets by a long shot'.

JPaul · « **Reply #22 on:** June 25, 2012, 09:49:30 PM »

Quote from: TKGS

I know I can be slow on the uptake, sometimes. Is this docuмent authentic? If so, how does this affect Bishop Williamson's status within the Society?

It is indeed authentic. H.E.'s status remains the same despite Bishop Fellay's illigitimate exercise of power.

Philomena · « **Reply #23 on:** June 25, 2012, 09:52:27 PM »

Quote from: J.Paul

Quote from: TKGS
I know I can be slow on the uptake, sometimes. Is this docuмent authentic? If so, how does this affect Bishop Williamson's status within the Society?

It is indeed authentic. H.E.'s status remains the same despite Bishop Fellay's illigitimate exercise of power.

Will H.E. be obedient, or show up for ordinations and the G.C.?

JPaul · « **Reply #24 on:** June 25, 2012, 10:14:42 PM »

Quote from: Philomena

Quote from: J.Paul
Quote from: TKGS
I know I can be slow on the uptake, sometimes. Is this docuмent authentic? If so, how does this affect Bishop Williamson's status within the Society?

It is indeed authentic. H.E.'s status remains the same despite Bishop Fellay's illigitimate exercise of power.

Will H.E. be obedient, or show up for ordinations and the G.C.?

It is hard to say. It is possible that that is Menzingen's desired outcome. By the language employed, this interdict could be the beginning of Bishop Fellay's move to expell him. Were he to show up, it would play right into their hands.

H.E. +Williamson is wise enough to deal with this I think. I don't think that he will be fooled into acting on Menzigen's behalf.

SeanJohnson · « **Reply #25 on:** June 25, 2012, 10:16:02 PM »

Quote from: Philomena

Quote from: J.Paul
Quote from: TKGS
I know I can be slow on the uptake, sometimes. Is this docuмent authentic? If so, how does this affect Bishop Williamson's status within the Society?

It is indeed authentic. H.E.'s status remains the same despite Bishop Fellay's illigitimate exercise of power.

Will H.E. be obedient, or show up for ordinations and the G.C.?

To obey an illegal law would be false obedience.

He will be there, unless proscribed by the aid of the civil authority.

morningstar · « **Reply #26 on:** June 26, 2012, 12:30:13 AM »

Quote from: Roman55

I'm going to take my chances on this one: Based on third party talk, I understand he can have quite an impact on this (he already has). That 'sheriff ain't out of bullets by a long shot'.

What do you mean, "third party talk" ??

morningstar · « **Reply #27 on:** June 26, 2012, 01:15:15 AM »

Quote from: morningstar

Quote from: Roman55
I'm going to take my chances on this one: Based on third party talk, I understand he can have quite an impact on this (he already has). That 'sheriff ain't out of bullets by a long shot'.

What do you mean, "third party talk" ??

oh sorry nevermind, my fault I hadn't read the other post good enough which answers my question.

Maria Auxiliadora · « **Reply #28 on:** June 26, 2012, 07:09:08 AM »

Quote from: Philomena

Here is what Father Domenico wrote regarding Canon 1373.

Quote from: fr.domenico
The canons in the 1917 Code are, like the 1983 Code directed to those who conspire against the Pope or their proper Ordinary. The Head of a Pious Union is not an Ordinary. This would only be if he was, in fact, already the head of a personal prelature given by Rome. So, it is either an illegal action, or he has already signed a deal.

As to the Dominicans and Franciscans, that is simply making up the law as you go along.

This makes sense to me. I would not be surprised if he presents them with the decree of "excommunication" from Rome to those who opposeo him at the chapter. He'si obiously afraid of Bishop Williamson. All of bishop Fellay's moves have been cowardly plotted. I believe he's already under Rome's orders and that is why his refusal to ordain the Dominicans and Franciscans. S
The other three bishops should reward them for their courage and consecrate a bishop from each order that refuse his unjust authority and ensure their continuity should something happen to the other bishops and perhaps this orders could assist their faithful supporters by administering the sacrament of Confirmation if needed. The other three bishops should have their Hans full reorganizing the TRiUEo SSPX when the dust settles.

Maria Auxiliadora · « **Reply #29 on:** June 26, 2012, 07:14:22 AM »

Quote from: Marie Auxiliadora

Quote from: Philomena
Here is what Father Domenico wrote regarding Canon 1373.

Quote from: fr.domenico
The canons in the 1917 Code are, like the 1983 Code directed to those who conspire against the Pope or their proper Ordinary. The Head of a Pious Union is not an Ordinary. This would only be if he was, in fact, already the head of a personal prelature given by Rome. So, it is either an illegal action, or he has already signed a deal.

As to the Dominicans and Franciscans, that is simply making up the law as you go along.

This makes sense to me. I would not be surprised if he presents them with the decree of "excommunication" from Rome to those who opposeo him at the chapter. He'si obiously afraid of Bishop Williamson. All of bishop Fellay's moves have been cowardly plotted. I believe he's already under Rome's orders and that is why his refusal to ordain the Dominicans and Franciscans. S
The other three bishops should reward them for their courage and consecrate a bishop from each order that refuse his unjust authority and ensure their continuity should something happen to the other bishops and perhaps this orders could assist their faithful supporters by administering the sacrament of Confirmation if needed. The other three bishops should have their Hans full reorganizing the TRiUEo SSPX when the dust settles.

I sent this post from my phone, excuse the extra letters.