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Author Topic: +Lefebvre: SSPX must use 1962 reform  (Read 7739 times)

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Re: +Lefebvre: SSPX must use 1962 reform
« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2022, 08:17:20 AM »
You repeatedly embarrass yourself with these effeminate meltdowns.  Grow up, would you?

What's eminently Protestant is the R&R assertion that the Catholic Church can become corrupt and fundamentally veer away from the Church's Tradition.  That allegation of corruption is at the very heart of Protestantism, and R&R declares that it's OK to separate from Rome because Rome has become corrupt in both faith and in worship (precisely the allegations made by the Prots).

Archbishop Lefebvre repeatedly asserted the Catholic principle (which you reject) that the Holy Spirit guides the papacy and that what's taking place is not possible, and where he asserted the SVism is in fact a possible explanation.  He merely refrained from coming out publicly with it (his words) out of an abundance of prudence.  But he repeatedly asserted that SVism is possible and that it's not heretical, and at times considered it likely.  Around the time of Assisi he said that he may have to come out as an SV.  Father Ringrose cited all these statements by Lefebvre when he became SV.

I find it incredibly humorous that your buddy Salza, whom you guys all touted as the champion of R&R, turned on your clowns, and took is principles to their logical conclusions (which SVs called out as eroneous from the outset) and declared you to be outside the Church.  :laugh1:  Now you guys are "refuting" Salza using the same arguments that SVs had against him in the first place.

See, the difference between SVism and R&R in terms of rendering the "unity of the mystical body ... an impossibility" is that SVs hold that this is an extraordiary situation due to the obvious infiltration and takeover of the Church.  There have been regular Antipopes throughout Church history and disputes over the identity of the real pope.  That is nothing new, and has a ton of precedents.  What's absolutely novel ... and heretical ... is the assertion that even when you have a legitimate pope, it's permissible for Catholics to reject their Magisterium, their Rite of Mass, etc. ... when they think they know better.  Even when a new legitimate pope is elected, there's no way ever to roll that garbage back, and the "new normal" created by R&R is a situation where anyone can at any time second-guess the Magisterium.  Your principles destroy the Church.  An extraordinary takeover situation (in many ways like the Great Western Schism scenario) does not fundamentally destroy the Church.  Canonists have repeatedly asserted (have been quoted here) that one is not in schism for refusing submissioin to a Pope if the refusal is based on doubts about his election or his person.  Corollary to that is of course that if you have no doubts about his person, then you are schismatic to behave the way you behave.

We you in the seminary for about 3 days?  Or were you asleep during all your classes?  You obviously learned nothing about Catholic theology while you were there.
You would have thought tath

:facepalm::jester:

Re: +Lefebvre: SSPX must use 1962 reform
« Reply #36 on: May 16, 2022, 09:19:48 AM »
The Virgin, from the time of Our Lady of LaSalette stated that the Pope will suffer much.

Pope Gregory XVII was threatened with the annihilation of his family and the decapitation of the Roman Curia via a tactical nuke. 

The Chiesa Viva expose docuмents that.

He was the Pope in hiding. Surely he was ashamed of himself. Still he was the papal favorite for three consecutive conclaves and in each case, ʝʊdɛօ-masonry bumped him out.
I think it's the most plausible explanation.

How do you think this works with the "two popes" prophecies?


Re: +Lefebvre: SSPX must use 1962 reform
« Reply #37 on: May 16, 2022, 08:20:41 PM »
It is possible (and I am personally inclined to believe) that skullduggery was involved in the 1958 conclave.  The Church does not declare pontifical reigns invalid because of skullduggery.  Examples abound in Church history.  Particularly amusing is the history of the papacy during the 1040's:

1044: Benedict IX (who obtained the Papal office through bribes in 1032) is chased from Rome by its citizens.

Jan. 1045: Sylvester III is elected.

March 1045: Benedict IX returns to Rome and deposes Sylvester III.

May 1045: Benedict IX sells the office to Gregory VI.

1046: Gregory VI resigns and is replaced by Clement II.

1047: Benedict IX again seizes the throne upon the death of Clement II.

1048: Benedict IX is driven from Rome by the German emperor, to be replaced by Damasus II.

Plenty of material is here to raise doubts about the validity of the beginnings of endings of various pontificates, yet each one is recognized by the Church and is listed in the Annuario Pontificio, including all three reigns of Benedict IX.

Assuming one day one of the various conjectures concerning Cardinal Siri were proved true, the Church would still recognize the pontificate of John XXIII.

Re: +Lefebvre: SSPX must use 1962 reform
« Reply #38 on: May 16, 2022, 08:21:13 PM »
I think it's the most plausible explanation.

How do you think this works with the "two popes" prophecies?
Thanks for the question MP.

We've had a hard time producing Sr. Melanie's original account of Our Lady of La Salette. This apparition was heavily slandered and suppressed, but made a bit of a comeback at the end of the 19th Century.  If you do some searches you can find her true life story.

A Frenchman I know, says the original account is locked in the reserve room of a French gov't controlled library (Grenoble?) Can't recall?

But, we do have a brief analysis from Father Hesse, circa 2004,(youtube) in which he discusses Our Lady of La Salette's prophecy of "Two worm ridden Popes". She claimed they would die on the same night.

At the time Father Hesse did this recording, I believe JPII was still alive?  But the jist of Father Hesse's talk was: "What could Mother Mary have meant?"

So, in 2022, we have the unique situation... where two worm ridden men, making some claim to the Seat... are still alive.   :popcorn:



Re: +Lefebvre: SSPX must use 1962 reform
« Reply #39 on: May 17, 2022, 11:37:35 AM »
The Virgin, from the time of Our Lady of LaSalette stated that the Pope will suffer much.

Pope Gregory XVII was threatened with the annihilation of his family and the decapitation of the Roman Curia via a tactical nuke. 

The Chiesa Viva expose docuмents that.

He was the Pope in hiding. Surely he was ashamed of himself. Still he was the papal favorite for three consecutive conclaves and in each case, ʝʊdɛօ-masonry bumped him out.

This is an interesting theory, but how can we conciliate this with Cardinal Siri's embrace of Modernism after the council?

He said the Novus Ordo Mass, he did not oppose any errors publicly. He was pretty much a regular post-Vatican II cardinal. 

This is why I find it hard to believe that he was the hidden and good sucessor of Pius XII.

This whole story could be true, but the facts kind of work against it. 

I would like to be convinced of the contrary.