Author Topic: +Lefebvre on spiritual nourishment (grace) at the Novus Ordo Mass (Read 1112 times)

Matthew · « **on:** June 11, 2017, 08:02:39 AM »

http://sodalitium-pianum.com/no-spiritual-nourishment-at-the-new-mass/

(A prisoner of the Bergen-Belsen cσncєnтrαтισn cαмρ eats bread; you will understand the picture after you read the article)

Of all the offenses Bishop Williamson is alleged to have made at his 2015 Mahopac, New York conference, the suggestion that one could, in certain circuмstances, still find "spiritual nourishment" at a Novus Ordo Mass was judged by his adversaries to be the worst of all. A Catechetical Refutation defended that comment (particularly at points #7-8). Reacting against this claim, the Pfeifferites went on to invent a new heresy, claiming against the de fide declarations of the Council of Trent (and the unanimous consent of the manuals) that there is no transmission of sanctifying grace to well disposed Novus Ordo communicants at a valid Mass.
To bolster that error (after the fact), they extracted two quotes of Archbishop Lefebvre from context, and held them out in a univocal sense. Those attempts were refuted Here and Here. Finally, an old Angelus letter of Fr. Pulvermacher was unearthed, and advanced in support of this error, which was refuted in two parts Here and Here.
Between the Catechetical Refutation and the four subsequent refutations rectifying the Pfeifferien errors on the operation of grace, we were content to have let the matter rest, having vindicated not so much the comments of Bishop Williamson, as the sacramental theology of the Catholic Church these errors attack.
However, Samuel recently posted a translation of a 1974 Econe spiritual conference of the Archbishop which leaves absolutely no room for doubt that Archbishop Lefebvre (like Bishop Williamson) believed the new Mass could still impart spiritual nourishment (i.e., sanctifying grace) to its communicants in certain circuмstances, Here.
Neither will it avail the Pfeifferites to note that the Archbishop's position on the new Mass later hardened, since what changed was not the Archbishop's theology (i.e., grace passes/grace does not pass), but his prudential decision regarding attendance of the new Mass, given the worsening circuмstances and conditions in the Church as the fruits of Vatican II manifested themselves more clearly over the years.
[On this latter point, it is worth recalling Archbishop Lefebvre's May 9, 1980 comment in Michael Davies' classic Apologia Pro Marcel Lefebvre (Vol. II, Ch. 40) positively endorsing Novus Ordo Mass attendance that "Those who feel themselves obliged in conscience to assist at the New Mass on Sunday can fulfill their Sunday obligation" here. I make the same observation regarding the quote the Pfeifferites pull from "Open Letter to Confused Catholics" in one of the refutations above, in which the Archbishop makes his comments on grace specific to sacrilegous and desecrated Masses, not all Novus Ordo Masses.]
As always, I suppose it is obligatory to state that that which is said above is in no sense a defense of the new Mass, but rather, a defense of Catholic sacramental theology.
Here follows Samuel's translation of Archbishop Lefebvre's conference, which leaves absolutely no room for doubt that he taught his seminarians/priests that grace can pass to Novus Ordo communicants:

"But if, on the other hand, as happens for example, they mentioned a case to me of.. some of you gave me the case of a priest who always says the old offertory, who always says the old canon, but he says the mass, he uses the new mass, he says the mass facing the people but he does not give communion in the hand. Well, if there are any seminarians that don’t have any other mass, can they attend a mass like that ? I think yes, what do you expect ! The priest who makes such an effort would be a little discouraged, hurt to see the seminarians close to him, whom he loves very much, to see that they don’t come and attend his mass under the pretext that he does not say [the old mass] absolutely from beginning to end.. I believe there are some circuмstances we have to consider !
The father of Mr Pazat who is here told me yesterday that right now, there is not a single mass of St Pius V in Madrid. If there is no more mass of St Pius V in Madrid, if one is logical with those who are strict on the question of the mass, one would have to tell all people in Madrid that they cannot put in a foot in a church, one has to be logical, one has to be logical.. Do you feel in conscience capable to tell all people in Madrid, the whole city of Madrid, all Catholics : you cannot set foot anymore in a Church ? I do not dare saying that in such an absolute manner, since there are quite a few conditions, as I will mention, quite a few circuмstances in which we cannot attend these masses.
But there are still priests who believe, there are still priests.. the mass is not always invalid, certainly not ! If it was always an invalid mass, of course we cannot go there, if it was always a sacrilegious mass, a mass regularly sacrilegious, evidently, a mass that has a net protestant tendency, it would be evident. But I think there are at the same time circuмstances in which.. we do not know, because there is still the danger on one hand of losing the faith in the case of people who don’t go to mass for one month, two months, three months, four months, a year, they will lose the faith, it’s over, that’s obvious, we cannot make ourselves any illusions, if one were to say such to a whole city, imagine !
If on the other hand obviously you say : “But they eat meat that is poisoned !” That’s true, but if one eats a meal that is more or less poisoned, they may still last a little longer, until the moment when better nourishment arrives, while if they would die of hunger, they would be dead in three weeks or a month, they would die of hunger; It would be better to die in six months than to die in one month ! It would be better if they did not die at all, of course. But what do you expect, if not going to mass causes them to die by lack of faith, if by going to a mass that is not not very good because it is poisoning them they can prolong a little.. Take someone in a cσncєnтrαтισn cαмρ who is given a choice : either you don’t eat, and thus you will die in a short time, or you will be given meat that has gone off, knowing well that you will eat bad meat, they know quite well that it will harm them, but they eat it anyway saying : “If I can survive a little longer, maybe my deliverance will come soon !” So, that is what we must say also, maybe our deliverance will come and we will have the mass of St Pius V; it is in this spirit that we have to tell them, I think.. [end of tape]"

JPaul · « **Reply #1 on:** June 11, 2017, 11:10:20 AM »

It is pointed out more than once here that danger is there and that one cannot really be sure when or where, and more importantly,
neither do these comments or Bishop Williamson's assertions deal with the fact that there is an issue of priestly invalidity or intent which the average faithful cannot easily determine for themselves, and thus there is doubt as to the Sacrament.
As such doubt always exists, a Catholic is forbidden by the Church to approach, and if one does so and does not confess it through their ignorance or outside counsel, then they will carry that sin and sacrilege into their next valid reception of the Holy Sacrament.

Beyond that is a more plain and relevant point, the lady in New York had a Traditional Mass which she was attending, and her desire to attend the false mass during the week was a matter of her desire not one of necessity. Therefore to give her excuse to imbibe in its poison because it suited her to do so was poor and unacceptable counsel. There was no religiously compelling need for her to do this, but she wanted to. She made this known to the Bishop beforehand.

None of her subjective observations nor any of Bishop Williamson's arguments which placated her, remove the doubts about the priests or their intentions. A layperson who is theologically untrained cannot make such vital objective determinations.
So one conciliar Catholic felt justified, whilst many thousands of Traditional Catholics around the world were scandalized and left in confusion. This was a very bad trade off here.

It would have been sounder advice to advocate attendance at an Orthodox Divine Liturgy as a means of emergency nourishment that to send her to a non-Catholic service with questionable validities and certain sacrilege.

The Catholic Religion in relation to its Sacraments rests upon the certainty of its approved rites and rituals which again, rest within the Divine Authority as Trent has codified by its decrees.
It does not make exceptions for the speculations, presumptions, and personal judgements of clerics or men.

Author Topic: +Lefebvre on spiritual nourishment (grace) at the Novus Ordo Mass (Read 1112 times)

Matthew

+Lefebvre on spiritual nourishment (grace) at the Novus Ordo Mass

JPaul

Re: +Lefebvre on spiritual nourishment (grace) at the Novus Ordo Mass