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Author Topic: Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???  (Read 6976 times)

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Offline de Lugo

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Re: Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???
« Reply #75 on: February 15, 2023, 01:38:43 PM »
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  • True, the letter does not deny having ever said the '65 missal. That subject is not brought up. However, +ABL says that the Society has always used the liturgy of Pope Pius XII, signed by Pope John XXIII, and so, the liturgy preceding the Council, and that the sedevacantists (to whom he was referring) rejected that Mass.

    The fact of history says that "always" is to be interpreted in the sense described above.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???
    « Reply #76 on: February 15, 2023, 01:42:15 PM »
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  • True, the letter does not deny having ever said the '65 missal. That subject is not brought up. However, +ABL says that the Society has always used the liturgy of Pope Pius XII, signed by Pope John XXIII, and so, the liturgy preceding the Council, and that the sedevacantists (to whom he was referring) rejected that Mass.
    Well said Meg! I was about to post the same thing only would not have said it as well.

    Here is the quote: "They reject the liturgy which has always been used in the Society and consider it evil, the liturgy of Pope Pius XII, signed by Pope John XXIII, and so, the liturgy preceding the Council."
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline de Lugo

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    Re: Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???
    « Reply #77 on: February 15, 2023, 01:43:00 PM »
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  • This is not the case if the 1965 missal is used with the 1967 changes.

    The 67 changes make the 1965 missal indistinguishable from the 1969 missal without careful attention to the Offertory (very hard when said silently) and the calendar.

    A 1965 Missal "used with the 1967 changes" is no longer a 1965 Missal.

    Moreover, despite the help you are trying to give to Msgr. des Lauriers, nobody on the planet has ever accused Msgr. Lefebvre of such a useage until your post in 2023.

    Finally, the previously mentioned irony remains: If Msgr. des Lauriers can't tell the difference between the 1965 (or the 1967, according to your fantasy) and 1969 Missals, then his expertise is suspect.  Conversely, if his expertise is not suspect, then his honesty is.
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    Offline de Lugo

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    Re: Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???
    « Reply #78 on: February 15, 2023, 01:46:30 PM »
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  • Well said Meg! I was about to post the same thing only would not have said it as well.

    Here is the quote: "They reject the liturgy which has always been used in the Society and consider it evil, the liturgy of Pope Pius XII, signed by Pope John XXIII, and so, the liturgy preceding the Council."

    That you will not find a single FSSPX priest on the planet to concur with your fantastic and forced interpretation -clearly at odds with well docuмented history- should have proved to any honest soul that they were mistaken, but alas, such is the defect inherent in these fora, that more people come here to fight at any cost to preserve their positions, or save face, than to accept truths presented to them.

    To such, I leave to wallow in their own inventions.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???
    « Reply #79 on: February 15, 2023, 01:49:36 PM »
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  • This is not the case if the 1965 missal is used with the 1967 changes.


    Um...that would be called the 1967 Missal.

    What's next, a movie called "The Woman King"?

    All the local Novus Ordo parishes use the 1955 Missal "with the 1969 changes", as well as the tweaks added in the 21st century by Pope Benedict.

    But that means it's no longer the 1955 Missal...

    Fuzzy Wuzzy was a bear.
    Fuzzy Wuzzy had no hair.
    So Fuzzy Wuzzy wasn't fuzzy...was he?
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???
    « Reply #80 on: February 15, 2023, 02:14:15 PM »
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  • That you will not find a single FSSPX priest on the planet to concur with your fantastic and forced interpretation -clearly at odds with well docuмented history- should have proved to any honest soul that they were mistaken, but alas, such is the defect inherent in these fora, that more people come here to fight at any cost to preserve their positions, or save face, than to accept truths presented to them.

    To such, I leave to wallow in their own inventions.
    Just because you don't accept the truth of the matter is no reason to wallow in your own inventions. I mean, it says what it says, and if you actually looked, you would find there are more SSPX links that say the same thing. 

    Here's one, from an FSSPX priest that took all of about 10 seconds to find, look for yourself and you will find others and be freed of your own inventions:

    "...In the first example, he was addressing a crisis in the United States District. Some of his priests, including Seminary rector Fr Donald Sanborn, were refusing to use the 1962 missal. After all, they said, it was promulgated by a Modernist Pope, John XXIII. This was a classic case of considering the person exercising authority (Pope John XXIII), without considering whether he was using his authority well or ill.

    No, said Archbishop Lefebvre. There is nothing in the 1962 missal that poses a danger to the faith. As such, the SSPX has no justification for refusing it. As he explained to the American seminarians at the time, he was, in this decision, only applying the principle of the Church."
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline de Lugo

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    Re: Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???
    « Reply #81 on: February 15, 2023, 02:23:21 PM »
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  • Just because you don't accept the truth of the matter is no reason to wallow in your own inventions. I mean, it says what it says, and if you actually looked, you would find there are more SSPX links that say the same thing.

    Here's one, from an FSSPX priest that took all of about 10 seconds to find, look for yourself and you will find others and be freed of your own inventions:

    "...In the first example, he was addressing a crisis in the United States District. Some of his priests, including Seminary rector Fr Donald Sanborn, were refusing to use the 1962 missal. After all, they said, it was promulgated by a Modernist Pope, John XXIII. This was a classic case of considering the person exercising authority (Pope John XXIII), without considering whether he was using his authority well or ill.

    No, said Archbishop Lefebvre. There is nothing in the 1962 missal that poses a danger to the faith. As such, the SSPX has no justification for refusing it. As he explained to the American seminarians at the time, he was, in this decision, only applying the principle of the Church."

    Mon ami-

    It would appear you are solidifying my argument against you, as this excerpt says exactly the same thing as Mme. Meg's:

    Msgr. Lefebvre is defending the use of the 1962 Missal against the demands of the sedevacantists to revert to the 1954.

    There is nothing in it capable of abolishing the history recounted in Msgr. de Mallerais' Biography that the 1965 Missal was used in the beginning at Econe (as even the priest you quote will testify to).
    Noblesse oblige.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???
    « Reply #82 on: February 15, 2023, 02:58:53 PM »
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  • Mon ami-

    It would appear you are solidifying my argument against you, as this excerpt says exactly the same thing as Mme. Meg's:

    Msgr. Lefebvre is defending the use of the 1962 Missal against the demands of the sedevacantists to revert to the 1954.

    There is nothing in it capable of abolishing the history recounted in Msgr. de Mallerais' Biography that the 1965 Missal was used in the beginning at Econe (as even the priest you quote will testify to).
    Well, you have one article saying contrary to all the other articles, as well as my own personal experience in the situation. I have never seen nor heard of +ABL using the 65 missal until this thread, which only means that if he ever did use it, it was before my time. As for the link in the OP saying he said it in June of 1980, that is a flat out lie.

    In your OP, the SSPX link says:
    "...At no point did the Archbishop himself ever say the New Mass. It appears that the calumny saying that he did has its origins in an unsubstantiated letter written by Fr. Guérard des Lauriers, OP, on April 12, 1979."

    Msgr. de Mallerais' Biography says that the 1965 Missal was used in the beginning at Econe. All that is, as I said, is total and complete BS.

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline de Lugo

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    Re: Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???
    « Reply #83 on: February 15, 2023, 03:34:36 PM »
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  • Well, you have one article saying contrary to all the other articles, as well as my own personal experience in the situation. I have never seen nor heard of +ABL using the 65 missal until this thread, which only means that if he ever did use it, it was before my time. As for the link in the OP saying he said it in June of 1980, that is a flat out lie.

    In your OP, the SSPX link says:
    "...At no point did the Archbishop himself ever say the New Mass. It appears that the calumny saying that he did has its origins in an unsubstantiated letter written by Fr. Guérard des Lauriers, OP, on April 12, 1979."

    Msgr. de Mallerais' Biography says that the 1965 Missal was used in the beginning at Econe. All that is, as I said, is total and complete BS.

    Perhaps you are operating under the additional mistake of believing the Novus Ordo was promulgated in 1965?

    If not, I'm not understanding why you believe the 3rd paragraph contradicts the 2nd?
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???
    « Reply #84 on: February 15, 2023, 03:41:56 PM »
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  • Well said Meg! I was about to post the same thing only would not have said it as well.

    Here is the quote: "They reject the liturgy which has always been used in the Society and consider it evil, the liturgy of Pope Pius XII, signed by Pope John XXIII, and so, the liturgy preceding the Council."

    Thanks, Stubborn. This quote that you posted above from +ABL seems quite clear, as I'm sure you'll agree. I hope de Lugo realizes that we're on the same side. But I, for one, will side with what +ABL wrote, rather than what +de Mallerais, or +des Lauriers wrote, or what other sedevacantists write (who have an agenda).
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline de Lugo

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    Re: Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???
    « Reply #85 on: February 15, 2023, 03:44:37 PM »
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  • Thanks, Stubborn. This quote that you posted above from +ABL seems quite clear, as I'm sure you'll agree. I hope de Lugo realizes that we're on the same side. But I, for one, will side with what +ABL wrote, rather than what +de Mallerais, or +des Lauriers wrote, or what other sedevacantists write (who have an agenda).

    So sorry, but you can ask any FSSPX priest if the 1965 Missal was initially used in Econe, and they will unanimously answer you in the affirmative.

    No more point in discussing with people strongheaded in their ignorance, who have no wish to see the flagrant and undisputed (except on Cathinfo) truth of it.

    I'm sure even the moderator of this forum, as a former seminarist, is well aware of it.
    Noblesse oblige.


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???
    « Reply #86 on: February 15, 2023, 03:46:01 PM »
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  • So sorry, but you can ask any FSSPX priest if the 1965 Missal was initially used in Econe, and they will unanimously answer you in the affirmative.

    No more point in discussing with people strongheaded in their ignorance, who have no wish to see the truth of it.

    I'm sure even the moderator of this forum, as a former seminarist, is well aware of it.

    You're entitled to your opinion. And so are we. That's how it is on forums. Disagreements are fairly common here. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???
    « Reply #87 on: February 15, 2023, 04:19:48 PM »
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  • Perhaps you are operating under the additional mistake of believing the Novus Ordo was promulgated in 1965?

    If not, I'm not understanding why you believe the 3rd paragraph contradicts the 2nd?
    In my neck of the woods, it started creeping in about 1965-66, I made my first communion in 1967 and before the end of that summer we were outta there. I can only remember some few things of that Mass and some happenings before we left. 

    For me, I have no need of concerning myself with this issue, which is really no issue at all, not for me, not for anyone really. I know enough of what we did with newly ordained SSPX priests in those days to know that +ABL never said a NOM, or if he did it was before my time.

     I don't know when Econe was only new, but no matter how anyone looks at it, it makes zero sense for him to have used the NOM even then. I just cannot see him opening a trad seminary mainly because of the NOM, only for him to start out the gate using the NOM.:fryingpan:
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???
    « Reply #88 on: February 15, 2023, 04:51:29 PM »
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  • Msgr. de Mallerais' Biography says that the 1965 Missal was used in the beginning at Econe. All that is, as I said, is total and complete BS.

    Suuure.  You know better than Bishop Tissier, who was actually there at Econe very early on.  I've heard it also from other priests who are there.  And there's also this ...
    https://sspx.org/en/news-events/news/archbishop-lefebvre-never-celebrated-new-mass-79736
    Quote
    The Archbishop accepted these slight modifications to the traditional Mass [aka 1965 Missal, as SSPX spins it] at first before finally settling on the 1962 books promulgated by Pope John XXIII as the SSPX’s normative liturgy in 1974.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???
    « Reply #89 on: February 15, 2023, 04:56:34 PM »
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  • I don't know when Econe was only new, but no matter how anyone looks at it, it makes zero sense for him to have used the NOM even then. I just cannot see him opening a trad seminary mainly because of the NOM, only for him to start out the gate using the NOM.:fryingpan:

    As has been repeated several times, nowhere in the assertion from +des Lauriers did he say that the Archbishop used the NOM (released in 1969).  He just said that the Archbishop used the "New Mass" ... which many viewed the 1965 Missal to be.  I would consider it a New Mass even had the 1969 never been released, just as people now speak of the New Holy Week Rites (under Pius XII).  Some hold those to be basically the Traditional Rites, others to be new rites infected with Modernist liturgical principles.  It's a matter of perspective, and sometimes of semantics.

    Bottom line is that it doesn't really matter.  Confusion reigned in those days, and people did not have the benefit of a 20/20 hindsight at the time.  Had I been a priest at the time, I almost certainly would have accepted the 1965 Missal (even if I didn't like it).