Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 7

Author Topic: Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???  (Read 6954 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline de Lugo

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 563
  • Reputation: +421/-74
  • Gender: Male
Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???
« on: February 12, 2023, 12:25:35 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • More garbage from Siscoe and Salza, who now allege that Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass:

    http://www.trueorfalsepope.com/p/did-abp-lefebvre-say-new-mass-kennedy.html 

    I note the sloppiness of the argumentation:

    On the one hand, they illogically allege that because Msgr. Lefebvre "actively participated" in the new Mass at his sister-in-law's funeral in 1980, they conclude therefore that "we have a factual basis to conclude Lefebvre celebrated the New Mass..."

    As though there is no difference between actively participating in, and celebrating, the new Mass???

    The other "proof" Siscoe and Salza allege in support of their fantasy is the old and discredited allegation of Msgr. des Lauriers, who claimed that Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass from April/1969 - December/1971. 

    This is sheer stupidity, since the nwe Mass was not even permitted before November/1969, but that dosn't stop Siscoe and Salza from spreading Msgr. des Lauriers' old fantasy!

    I now view Siscoe and Salza quite differently than I did previously.

    Short of a retraction and correction, it is now clear to me that their task is to function as partisan polemicists for the conciliar church, and not for love of truth or souls.

    Here is an article in which the FSSPX explicitly denies the stupid charges of Siscoe and Salza: https://sspx.org/en/news-events/news/archbishop-lefebvre-never-celebrated-new-mass-79736
    Logged
    Noblesse oblige.

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46345
    • Reputation: +27285/-5038
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???
    « Reply #1 on: February 12, 2023, 12:41:38 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Who cares?  Salza is a total dirtbag.  Not a few Traditional priests said the NOM originally before coming to their senses.  As I've written before, changing one's mind about something is a sign of intellectual honesty, and who can fault anyone in this crisis?

    I believe +des Laurier that +Lefebvre likely said the NOM in 1969/70, and reports are that there was a hybrid Mass said at Econe in the early 1970s.  Again, who cares?  What matters is where Archbishop Lefebvre ended up.  People learn and cooperate with grace over time.  Take a look at +Vigano also.  I served NOM almost every day for about 10 years before I became a Traditional Catholic.

    Salza becomes more intellectually and theologically perverse each day as he doubles down on his latest errors.
    Logged

    Offline de Lugo

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 563
    • Reputation: +421/-74
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???
    « Reply #2 on: February 12, 2023, 12:45:52 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 12, 2023, 12:41:38 PM
    I believe +des Laurier that +Lefebvre likely said the NOM in 1969/70

    M. Ladislaus-

    Can you please explain how Msgr. Lefebvre could be saying a rite of Mass in April, which did not exist until November?
    Logged
    Noblesse oblige.

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46345
    • Reputation: +27285/-5038
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???
    « Reply #3 on: February 12, 2023, 12:46:36 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Salza:
    Quote
    We should first note that our assertion that Archbishop Lefebvre celebrated the New Mass was not intended to damage his reputation, as Hall recklessly alleges. After all, how could asserting that a bishop celebrated a legitimate rite of Mass be harmful to his reputation?

    Garbage.  That's EXACTLY what Salza is doing, trying to damage the reputation of Archbishop Lefebvre.  Didn't work, buddy, just like your other absurd trash didn't work either.
    Logged

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46345
    • Reputation: +27285/-5038
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???
    « Reply #4 on: February 12, 2023, 12:50:37 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: de Lugo on February 12, 2023, 12:45:52 PM
    M. Ladislaus-

    Can you please explain how Msgr. Lefebvre could be saying a rite of Mass in April, which did not exist until November?

    Evidently you're unaware of the fact that there were several years of transitional "Mass" before 1969, from the mid-1960s forward.

    You need to stop, as you're basically giving Salza a platform by implicitly claiming that it even matters if +Lefebvre offered the NOM for some time.  I know of many very solid Traditional priests who started out saying the NOM.  And the more you angst over this, the more ammunition you give Salza's stupidity.  Who cares?  +Lefebvre was not God.  He made mistakes.  You're letting Salza's nonsense have its intended effect here.
    Logged

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46345
    • Reputation: +27285/-5038
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???
    « Reply #5 on: February 12, 2023, 12:55:28 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • https://novusordowatch.org/wp-content/uploads/sspx_dvd_special_report.pdf
    Quote
    It was about this "transitional" reform that led author Michael Davies (in an out-of-print book published
    by the SSPX's official publishers in North America, by the way) to refer to it as actually "more decisive"
    in its effect than even the Novus Ordo Missae that would follow. In a section on the Conciliar docuмent
    Inter Oecuмenici, Instruction on the Proper Implementation of the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy
    (issued on September 26, 1964), Davies writes:
    "This Instruction certainly represented the most decisive step in the Liturgical Revolution,
    more decisive even than the promulgation of the New Mass itself. The changes imposed by
    the Instruction put an end to the concept of a liturgy that never changed and replaced it
    with a constantly changing liturgy. Once this psychological breakthrough had been
    achieved the possibility of any large scale resistance by either priests or laity had been
    overcome. The vital step was to get the clergy and laity to accept the first changes; once
    this had been done it was certain that they would not resist anything that followed."
    (From Liturgical Revolution III: Pope Paul's New Mass, Dickenson, TX: Angelus Press, 1980,
    28. Mr Davies notes on page 31 that the changes included the saying of the entire Mass in
    the vernacular except the Preface and Canon, the abolition of the Judica Me, Last Gospel
    and the Leonine Prayers, and the people praying the Pater Noster aloud with the priest.
    See the bottom of this page for an article by Mr Davies that argues against the 1965 Missal,
    showing how its transitional position in the liturgical revolution was much in keeping with
    the manner the apostate Thomas Cranmer conditioned the English away from the true
    Mass for which he substituted his heretical Anglican "Lord's Supper," a service the Novus
    Ordo closely resembles.)

    Logged

    Offline de Lugo

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 563
    • Reputation: +421/-74
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???
    « Reply #6 on: February 12, 2023, 12:58:36 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 12, 2023, 12:50:37 PM
    Evidently you're unaware of the fact that there were several years of transitional "Mass" before 1969, from the mid-1960s forward.

    You need to stop, as you're basically giving Salza a platform by implicitly claiming that it even matters if +Lefebvre offered the NOM for some time.  I know of many very solid Traditional priests who started out saying the NOM.  And the more you angst over this, the more ammunition you give Salza's stupidity.  Who cares?  +Lefebvre was not God.  He made mistakes.  You're letting Salza's nonsense have its intended effect here.

    M. Ladislaus-

    Neither Mssrs. Siscoe/Salza, nor Msgr. des Lauriers, are discussing the transitional missals of the 1960's, but the Novus Ordo Missae of 1969.

    By gratuitously accepting the blatant lie of Msgr. des Lauriers (which he later acknowledged, by modifying his previously given dates), you are feeding Mssrs. Siscoe/Salza's narrative against Msgr. Lefebvre.

    I challenge you to defend the lie of Msgr. des Lauriers (but the best you will be able to do is to back the lies of Mssrs. Siscoe/Salza).

    I note that all 6 witnesses identified by Msgr. des Lauriers deny his accusation.

    You can read all about it by machine translating this article by M. Jean Madiran: https://www.traditioninaction.org/Questions/WebSources/B_999-Mad.pdf
    Logged
    Noblesse oblige.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 4750
    • Reputation: +2896/-667
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???
    « Reply #7 on: February 12, 2023, 01:08:08 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: de Lugo on February 12, 2023, 12:58:36 PM
    M. Ladislaus-

    Neither Mssrs. Siscoe/Salza, nor Msgr. des Lauriers, are discussing the transitional missals of the 1960's, but the Novus Ordo Missae of 1969.

    By gratuitously accepting the blatant lie of Msgr. des Lauriers (which he later acknowledged, by modifying his previously given dates), you are feeding Mssrs. Siscoe/Salza's narrative against Msgr. Lefebvre.

    I challenge you to defend the lie of Msgr. des Lauriers (but the best you will be able to do is to back the lies of Mssrs. Siscoe/Salza).

    I note that all 6 witnesses identified by Msgr. des Lauriers deny his accusation.

    You can read all about it by machine translating this article by M. Jean Madiran: https://www.traditioninaction.org/Questions/WebSources/B_999-Mad.pdf

    I don’t think you understand the main point Ladislaus is making: it doesn’t even matter if the Archbishop did in fact celebrate it.
    Logged
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline de Lugo

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 563
    • Reputation: +421/-74
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???
    « Reply #8 on: February 12, 2023, 01:10:58 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on February 12, 2023, 01:08:08 PM
    I don’t think you understand the main point Ladislaus is making, it doesn’t even matter if the Archbishop did in fact celebrate it.

    I believe it is you who are missing the main point: The accusation is a proven lie, and must be denounced as such (or are facts unimportant to history?).

    Why would you be content to accept this lie?

    Would you be content to accept such lies were they made with regard to Mssrs. Dolan, Sanborn, or Thuc?
    Logged
    Noblesse oblige.

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46345
    • Reputation: +27285/-5038
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???
    « Reply #9 on: February 12, 2023, 02:07:42 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: de Lugo on February 12, 2023, 12:58:36 PM
    M. Ladislaus-

    Neither Mssrs. Siscoe/Salza, nor Msgr. des Lauriers, are discussing the transitional missals of the 1960's, but the Novus Ordo Missae of 1969.

    Where does it say that?  It depends on our perpsective.  We have that one guy at Traditio who calls the 1962 Mass the "Half Novus Ordo" Mass.

    And it doesn't matter.  You're giving Salza more of a hearing than he deserves.  He's a bitter ex-Trad.  It's no different than when people leave the Church to become Protestants.  They attack the Catholic Church with more ferocity than cradle-Prots ... because they're trying to assuage their own consciences and justify/rationalize to THEMSELVES that they were right.  Salza is doing the same thing here, doubling and tripling down on his attacks against the SSPX.
    Logged

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46345
    • Reputation: +27285/-5038
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???
    « Reply #10 on: February 12, 2023, 02:19:47 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • I just re-read the letter from Bishp Guerard des Laurier.  Nowhere does he say that +Lefebvre was saying the 1969 Novus Ordo Mass.  He simply said that +Lefebvre was saying "the New Mass".  He undoubtedly considered the 1965 Missal to be already the "New Mass".  So this is semantics.

    https://sspx.org/en/news-events/news/archbishop-lefebvre-never-celebrated-new-mass-79736
    Quote
    While much could be written on the liturgical praxis of the SSPX and other traditionalist Catholics during the years following the New Mass’s introduction, many priests simply relied upon the missals, breviaries, and other liturgical texts that were available to them. In 1965, for instance, several alterations were made to the 1962 Missale Romanum, such as the abbreviation of Psalm 42 during the so-called “Prayers at the Foot of the Altar”; the use of the vernacular for the epistle and gospel readings; and the suppression of the Last Gospel. The Archbishop accepted these slight modifications to the traditional Mass at first before finally settling on the 1962 books promulgated by Pope John XXIII as the SSPX’s normative liturgy in 1974.

    False Accusations

    At no point did the Archbishop himself ever say the New Mass.

    So SSPX dismiss these 1965 changes as "slight modifications to the traditional Mass", whereas +des Lauriers already saw them as "the New Mass".

    So even SSPX admits that +Lefebvre used the 1965 transitional Mass, and the term "new Mass" is a battle of semantics.

    They falsely accuse +des Laurier of making a "false accusation," but if you read the letter, he never says +Lefebvre said the 1969 NO Mass, but rather the "New Mass".
    Logged

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46345
    • Reputation: +27285/-5038
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???
    « Reply #11 on: February 12, 2023, 02:20:50 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: de Lugo on February 12, 2023, 12:45:52 PM
    M. Ladislaus-

    Can you please explain how Msgr. Lefebvre could be saying a rite of Mass in April, which did not exist until November?

    False.  Montini promulgated the New Mass on April 3, 1969.  He simply did not make it mandatory until the Advent of 1969.  So the Rite already "existed" as of April 3, 1969.
    Logged

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46345
    • Reputation: +27285/-5038
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???
    « Reply #12 on: February 12, 2023, 02:26:33 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: de Lugo on February 12, 2023, 01:10:58 PM
    I believe it is you who are missing the main point: The accusation is a proven lie, and must be denounced as such (or are facts unimportant to history?).

    Why would you be content to accept this lie?

    Would you be content to accept such lies were they made with regard to Mssrs. Dolan, Sanborn, or Thuc?

    But you're ready to accuse Bishop de Lauriers of lying, eh?

    No, YOU are completely missing the point.  It doesn't really matter.  So what if the Archbishop used the 1965 New Mass or the 1969.  Had he offered the 1969 New Mass through 1974, that would not change my opinion of him.  Confusion reigned in those days.  +Lefebvre signed all the docuмents of Vatican II.  But he later regretted it and changed his mind.  So what if he originally signed him?

    This defensiveness comes from people who look at +Lefebvre as if he were some Rule of Faith or Oracle from Heaven ... as a substitute for the Church's Magisterium.  He too was struggling with this Crisis ... just like EVERYONE ELSE and was not somehow floating or levatating above it in super-human fashion
    Logged

    Offline de Lugo

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 563
    • Reputation: +421/-74
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???
    « Reply #13 on: February 12, 2023, 02:39:59 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 12, 2023, 02:07:42 PM
    Where does it say that?  It depends on our perpsective.  We have that one guy at Traditio who calls the 1962 Mass the "Half Novus Ordo" Mass.

    M. Ladislaus-

    Can you please point me to any pertinent sections of Siscoe/Salza, des Lauriers, or Madiran, where they are discussing Msgr. Lefebvre celebrating any of the transitional rites of the 1960's in 1969-1971, and not the Novus Ordo?
    Logged
    Noblesse oblige.

    Offline de Lugo

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 563
    • Reputation: +421/-74
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???
    « Reply #14 on: February 12, 2023, 02:42:25 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 12, 2023, 02:19:47 PM
    I just re-read the letter from Bishp Guerard des Laurier.  Nowhere does he say that +Lefebvre was saying the 1969 Novus Ordo Mass.  He simply said that +Lefebvre was saying "the New Mass".  He undoubtedly considered the 1965 Missal to be already the "New Mass".  So this is semantics.

    https://sspx.org/en/news-events/news/archbishop-lefebvre-never-celebrated-new-mass-79736
    So SSPX dismiss these 1965 changes as "slight modifications to the traditional Mass", whereas +des Lauriers already saw them as "the New Mass".

    So even SSPX admits that +Lefebvre used the 1965 transitional Mass, and the term "new Mass" is a battle of semantics.

    They falsely accuse +des Laurier of making a "false accusation," but if you read the letter, he never says +Lefebvre said the 1969 NO Mass, but rather the "New Mass".

    M. Ladislaus-

    Why do I get the impression you have difficulties withi honesty, and deliberately interpret things to fit them into your narratives?

    Had Msgr. des Lauriers been speaking of the 1965 missal, he would not have been accusing Msgr. Lefebvre of gesticulations specific to the Novus Ordo.
    Logged
    Noblesse oblige.
    Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 7
    « previous next »