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Author Topic: Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???  (Read 6950 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???
« Reply #90 on: February 15, 2023, 04:58:29 PM »
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    • Quote from: de Lugo on February 15, 2023, 03:44:37 PM
    So sorry, but you can ask any FSSPX priest if the 1965 Missal was initially used in Econe, and they will unanimously answer you in the affirmative.

    No more point in discussing with people strongheaded in their ignorance, who have no wish to see the flagrant and undisputed (except on Cathinfo) truth of it.

    I'm sure even the moderator of this forum, as a former seminarist, is well aware of it.

    I've heard it directly from several priests who were THERE in the early 1970s, and not just any FSSPX.  That SSPX article (cited above) admits it as well.
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    Online 2Vermont

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    Re: Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???
    « Reply #91 on: February 16, 2023, 07:06:06 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 12, 2023, 02:20:50 PM
    False.  Montini promulgated the New Mass on April 3, 1969.  He simply did not make it mandatory until the Advent of 1969.  So the Rite already "existed" as of April 3, 1969.
    Without delving further into the debate about Archbishop Lefebvre saying the New Mass (I never thought he did, but even if he did at one time, that wouldn't change my opinion of him), this is the timeline I recall learning over the years.  I think M. de Lugo is mistaken about this.
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    Offline de Lugo

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    Re: Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???
    « Reply #92 on: February 16, 2023, 08:19:46 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on February 16, 2023, 07:06:06 AM
    Without delving further into the debate about Archbishop Lefebvre saying the New Mass (I never thought he did, but even if he did at one time, that wouldn't change my opinion of him), this is the timeline I recall learning over the years.  I think M. de Lugo is mistaken about this.

    Yes, clearly I should have chosen the word "mandated" instead of "existed."  Apologies.

    Nevertheless, this does not avail those embarking upon the  Operation Rescue of Msgr. des Lauriers, because the veracity of his delusion rests upon:

    1) The dishonest notion that Msge. Lefebvre was so enthusiastic for the Novus Oro, that he voluntarily embraced it even before it was mandatory;

    2) That Msgr. des Lauriers later changed his timeline when confronted by this actual mandated date;

    3) That none of the witnesses he identified supported his claim;

    4) And that even to reduce Msgr. des Laurier's claim from dishonesty to mere mistake presupposes that he considered the 1961-1967 transitional Missals to be Novus Ordo.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???
    « Reply #93 on: March 05, 2023, 03:52:24 PM »
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    • Found this finally:
    https://fsspx.org/en/%E2%80%9Cif-it-my-duty-i-will-consecrate-bishops%E2%80%9D
    Quote
    Archbishop Lefebvre: I celebrated Mass according to the new liturgical instructions of 1965, but never according to the final ones of 1968 which bear the signature of [then-] Msgr. Bugnini.

    So it depends on how you define "New" Mass.  You could probably go either way with the 1965 Rite.  SSPX claim it's the Old Mass with some slight changes, whereas others would characterize it as the New Mass.  There's that guy on Traditio who calls the 1962 Rite "Half Novus Ordo", which is a gross exaggeration, but the 1965, THAT might be rightly considered "HALF" Novus Ordo.

    Either way, who cares?  I'm 99% sure I would have gone along with the 1965 Rite myself as a priest.  100% of priests went along with the New Holy Week Rites.  Confusion reigned.  Had Archbishop Lefebvre even said the 1968/1969 Rite, that wouldn't make me think any less of him.  He wasn't infallible or some "Rule of Faith" (a substitute for the Magisterium).
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???
    « Reply #94 on: March 05, 2023, 04:42:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on March 05, 2023, 03:52:24 PM
    Found this finally:
    https://fsspx.org/en/%E2%80%9Cif-it-my-duty-i-will-consecrate-bishops%E2%80%9D
    So it depends on how you define "New" Mass.  You could probably go either way with the 1965 Rite.  SSPX claim it's the Old Mass with some slight changes, whereas others would characterize it as the New Mass.  There's that guy on Traditio who calls the 1962 Rite "Half Novus Ordo", which is a gross exaggeration, but the 1965, THAT might be rightly considered "HALF" Novus Ordo.

    Either way, who cares?  I'm 99% sure I would have gone along with the 1965 Rite myself as a priest.  100% of priests went along with the New Holy Week Rites.  Confusion reigned.  Had Archbishop Lefebvre even said the 1968/1969 Rite, that wouldn't make me think any less of him.  He wasn't infallible or some "Rule of Faith" (a substitute for the Magisterium).

    Nonsense.  Nobody calls the 1965 missal the new Mass (and if des Laurier can’t tell the difference between the 1969 and 1965, then he’s a totally incompetent liturgist).  But since we know that isn’t the case, it’s just another sede attack on Lefebvre.

    Ps: And where have you been to just learn Lefebvre originally said the 1965?  
    Talk about 50 year-old news.

    :facepalm:
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    Online SimpleMan

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    Re: Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???
    « Reply #95 on: March 05, 2023, 04:54:06 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on March 05, 2023, 03:52:24 PM
    Found this finally:
    https://fsspx.org/en/%E2%80%9Cif-it-my-duty-i-will-consecrate-bishops%E2%80%9D
    So it depends on how you define "New" Mass.  You could probably go either way with the 1965 Rite.  SSPX claim it's the Old Mass with some slight changes, whereas others would characterize it as the New Mass.  There's that guy on Traditio who calls the 1962 Rite "Half Novus Ordo", which is a gross exaggeration, but the 1965, THAT might be rightly considered "HALF" Novus Ordo.

    Either way, who cares?  I'm 99% sure I would have gone along with the 1965 Rite myself as a priest.  100% of priests went along with the New Holy Week Rites.  Confusion reigned.  Had Archbishop Lefebvre even said the 1968/1969 Rite, that wouldn't make me think any less of him.  He wasn't infallible or some "Rule of Faith" (a substitute for the Magisterium).

    Yes, and I've never figured out quite how TRADITIO makes such a statement.  "Half Novus Ordo"?  How exactly is that the case?

    TRADITIO outright denies the per se validity --- never mind liciety --- of the Novus Ordo, as well as post-V2 orders (priestly as well as episcopal), not just doubtful or invalid/doubtful per accidens, and is implicitly sedevacantist WRT all papacies from Paul VI onwards.  (They do affirm John XXIII as a valid Pope.)  There's a lot of good material there, but you have to "take the meat and leave the bones".
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???
    « Reply #96 on: March 05, 2023, 05:56:45 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on March 05, 2023, 04:42:41 PM
    Nonsense.  Nobody calls the 1965 missal the new Mass (and if des Laurier can’t tell the difference between the 1969 and 1965, then he’s a totally incompetent liturgist).  But since we know that isn’t the case, it’s just another sede attack on Lefebvre.

    Ps: And where have you been to just learn Lefebvre originally said the 1965? 
    Talk about 50 year-old news.

    :facepalm:

    Lots of people would call it the New Mass, just like they refer to the New Holy Week Rites.  Bishop Guerard did.  I would.  It certainly was not the Tridentine Mass.

    As for it being old news, that's great for you, but several posters on this thread were tryingt to deny it ... and you didn't bother to chime in then, genius ... but that's because you're completely dishonest.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???
    « Reply #97 on: March 05, 2023, 05:58:21 PM »
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    • Quote from: SimpleMan on March 05, 2023, 04:54:06 PM
    Yes, and I've never figured out quite how TRADITIO makes such a statement.  "Half Novus Ordo"?  How exactly is that the case?

    Yes, it's ridiculous.  If you wanted to put a number on it, it would be .001% Novus Ordo, as in 2-3 words referring to St. Joseph and the suppression of the second Confiteor (which most Traditional Catholics continued to use even with the 1962 Rite).
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    Offline NIFH

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    Re: Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???
    « Reply #98 on: March 05, 2023, 10:20:14 PM »
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    • Father Hesse explained that he had no problem with St. Joseph being inserted into the Canon in view of the recent declaration of St. Joseph as Patron of the Church by Pius IX.

    Also, the Rite of Communion of the Faithful is not part of Mass.  As with the sermon, the Church allows Mass to be paused to perform the Rite of Communion and resumed after the rite is completed.  Only the Communion of the celebrant is a part of Mass.  In other epochs, the sermon and/or Rite of Communion often took place before or after Mass.  While it was wrong to suppress the Confiteor in the Rite of Communion, it cannot be called a change in the Mass.
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