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Author Topic: Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???  (Read 5542 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???
« Reply #30 on: February 12, 2023, 11:46:51 PM »
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    • Quote from: Plenus Venter on February 12, 2023, 08:40:36 PM
    The problem is, CIA, that not everyone shares your opinion of Mr Salza.
    Many see him to be a convert Freemason and a learned and trustworthy authority on the Pope and the Faith.
    His influence may be quite considerable.
    So when he promotes false information about such an important person as Archbishop Lefebvre, and such an important issue as the New Mass, we should not "ignore" him, but vigorously defend the truth, and the honour of our beloved Archbishop. This is certainly focusing on the defence of the Faith.

    Absurd.  We absolutely should ignore Salza.  He has no influence other than with those who are already inclined to consider the SSPX to be schismatic.  They're high-fiving Salza and patting him on the back for promoting the position they already held, but Salza is not persuading anyone with his absurd position other than those who already believed it.  He's preaching to a new choir now, that's all.

    I've never heard anyone who decided, "I'm leaving SSPX because, you know, that Slaza guy is making a compelling case."

    Besides that, what +Lefebvre did or did not do in 1969/1970 is of absolutely no consequence.  And to play into Salza's tactic is to dignify a non-argument to be some kind of argument that has weight.  When people get all defensive and flustered about it, you're doing nothing but dignifying that nonsense.

    You can simply put it to bed with saying, "Whatever he did or did not do in 1969 and/or 1970 is of no consequence to what he did and said and thought later".  Similarly, what he did, said, and thought in the early 1980s has nothing to do with how he ended up, despite the fact that the +Fellay-ite SSPXers tried to pretend that it did by repeatedly citing him from the early 1980s when he was more conciliatory.  This was before he knew enough about Wojtyla to know which way he would go.  Wojtyla initially put out signals of his being favorable to Tradition, but then by the time Assisi came around, +Lefebvre realized that this man was as much of a flaming Modernist as Montini had been.

    You could easily turn this around on Salza by citing his many years of being a mouthpiece for SSPX, and he'd have no choice but to slink away with his tail betwee his legs if he tries that nonsense again.
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    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???
    « Reply #31 on: February 13, 2023, 12:07:21 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 12, 2023, 11:35:17 PM
    This is the problem here.  +Lefebvre is not an "authority".  In the Catholic Church, that would be the Pope.  

    Reality strikes again.
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    Offline de Lugo

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    Re: Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???
    « Reply #32 on: February 13, 2023, 10:11:56 AM »
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    • Quote from: CatholicInAmerica on February 12, 2023, 08:29:01 PM
    This was already proven false, and Fr. Des laurier recanted.

    But this is unimportant to M. Ladislaus.  What is important to him is that Msgr. Lefebvre be seen as wavering, and conversely, that Msgr. des Lauriers not be seen as dishonest.
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    Offline de Lugo

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    Re: Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???
    « Reply #33 on: February 13, 2023, 10:18:20 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 12, 2023, 11:35:17 PM
    This is the problem here.  +Lefebvre is not an "authority".  

    M. Ladislaus-

    This is a ridiculous statement.  Msgr. Lefebvre is very obviously one of the greatest authorities in the post-conciliar Church.  That he is outranked by popes and cardinals does not change that fact.

    Judging by the sum and content of your posts, it would seem your irrational opposition to the recognize and resist position explains your desire to eliminate him from the conversation (and conversely, explains your desire to let des Laurier's fantasy lay unopposed: He is YOUR founder).
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    Offline de Lugo

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    Re: Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???
    « Reply #34 on: February 13, 2023, 10:19:24 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 12, 2023, 11:40:08 PM
    Bishop Williamson's reply cited above:
    Did Bishop Williamson forget about the 1965 transitional rite, which even the SSPX has admitted was in use at Econe until 1974, when it was finally shut down?  It wasn't 1962 (John XXIII) and then 1969 (Paul VI).  There was a 1965 transitonal rite, that depending on your perspective was either a "slight modification of the Tridentine" (SSPX line) or the proto-NOM.  I lean toward the latter.

    Did Msgr. Williamson also forget that the gesticulations Msgr. des Lauriers accused Msgr. Lefebvre of are not to be found in any of those rites, and that nobody but you is discussing them anyway?
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    Offline de Lugo

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    Re: Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???
    « Reply #35 on: February 13, 2023, 10:23:20 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 12, 2023, 11:46:51 PM
    Absurd.  We absolutely should ignore Salza.  

    We can ignore them once you accept that Msgr. Lefebvre never said the new Mass, and that the statements of Msgr. des Lauriers to the contrary are false.
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    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???
    « Reply #36 on: February 13, 2023, 04:42:44 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 12, 2023, 11:40:08 PM
    Bishop Williamson's reply cited above:
    Did Bishop Williamson forget about the 1965 transitional rite, which even the SSPX has admitted was in use at Econe until 1974, when it was finally shut down?  It wasn't 1962 (John XXIII) and then 1969 (Paul VI).  There was a 1965 transitonal rite, that depending on your perspective was either a "slight modification of the Tridentine" (SSPX line) or the proto-NOM.  I lean toward the latter.
    Ladislaus, would you please substantiate this claim and detail for us the changes that Archbishop Lefebvre made to the Tridentine Mass up until 1974, that were so grave as to justify John Salza's claim that the Archbishop offered the NOM, the New Mass described in the "Ottaviani Intervention" (words perhaps penned by de Lauriers himself) as a striking departure from the Catholic theology of the Mass. 
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    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???
    « Reply #37 on: February 13, 2023, 04:50:16 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 12, 2023, 11:35:17 PM
    This is the problem here.  +Lefebvre is not an "authority".  In the Catholic Church, that would be the Pope.  
    Ladislaus, honestly, what an outrageous statement.
    A bishop in the Catholic church, a successor of the Apostles, is not an authority in the Church, specifically, when upholding Tradition.
    Are you insane? How dare you contradict Meg's common sense statement.
    Do us all a favour and make a Lenten resolution to have a nip of slivovitz and calm down before you post. You have a good brain, but sometimes I think you let that fiery continental temperament get the better of you.
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    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???
    « Reply #38 on: February 14, 2023, 03:10:28 AM »
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    • May Archbishop LeFebvre, RIP.  

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    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???
    « Reply #39 on: February 14, 2023, 03:15:03 AM »
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    • In the Name of Jesus Christ, Be gone to the evil ones who bring up the past to promote division. May God   Protect us from evil infiltration and instigators.  

    Protect us from evil ones who twist scripture too. 

    God help us to stay on path to live our faith to lead souls to heaven. 



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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???
    « Reply #40 on: February 14, 2023, 04:46:56 AM »
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    • The whole accusation that +ABL ever said anything except the True Mass is total and complete BS. 

    The pre-SSPX pioneering trads knew this, heck that was his "selling point" and that's the main reason why they went after him to do something about the mess within the Church.

    After all this time, whoever says otherwise only does so because they have a nefarious agenda.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???
    « Reply #41 on: February 14, 2023, 06:41:53 AM »
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    • Quote from: Plenus Venter on February 13, 2023, 04:50:16 PM
    Ladislaus, honestly, what an outrageous statement.
    A bishop in the Catholic church, a successor of the Apostles, is not an authority in the Church, specifically, when upholding Tradition.
    Are you insane? How dare you contradict Meg's common sense statement.
    Do us all a favour and make a Lenten resolution to have a nip of slivovitz and calm down before you post. You have a good brain, but sometimes I think you let that fiery continental temperament get the better of you.

    WHAT are you talking about?

    +Lefebvre had no jurisdiction in the Church, nor did he exercise any Magisterium that requires assent.  He was not an authority ... other than whatever moral "authority" one might attribute to his personal virtue.  Real authority in the Church derives from the Holy See, in the form of both Magsiterium and jurisdiction.  Lacking jurisdiction, +Lefebvre was in the position of a Auxliary or (in the East) Chor Bishop, whose only role is to help administer Sacraments to the faithful.  Your ad hominem attacks above do nothing to change this fact.  He had no more authority, after he resigned from his various posts in 1962, 1968, and 1970 than, say, Bishops Selway, Santay, or Neville.


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    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???
    « Reply #42 on: February 14, 2023, 07:08:46 AM »
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    • The heart of conflict in this thread seems to balance on an equivocal term: New Mass.

    I am curious about the original text of Msgr. Guérard des Lauriers' letter accusing Msgr. Lefebvre of celebrating the New Mass. I assume that this letter was composed in French. Is the expression used: "la Messe nouveaux", or something similar in French as I suspect? Was the Latin expression "Novus Ordo Missae" employed in the text, which I doubt. I have not seen the original text of the letter.

    Some here are equate Guérard des Lauriers' use of "New Mass" with the Novus Ordo Missae. Others see "New Mass" more broadly to include the 1965 interim missal as well as the additional alterations introduced to the interim missal in 1967. For myself, I do hold the 1962 missal to be a New Mass prototype as well as the 1955 Holy Week. I say this for full disclosure.

    We know that Guérard des Lauriers recanted his accusation that Lefebvre offered the Novus Ordo Missae. Guérard des Lauriers claims confusion by gestures made by Lefebvre that would suggest use of a "New Mass". Again, could this not be even here between the original agents a confusion arising from equivocal language?

    I very STRONGLY suspect that Lefebvre was offering Mass in these early 1970s using the 1965 interim missal probably with some or all 1967 changes. This would produce a liturgy visibly identicle to the Novus Ordo Missae. Only careful attention to the liturgical text itself would manifest the difference.

    In such case, Guérard des Lauriers makes the claim that Lefebvre used the New Mass--which he would be doing from the perspective of those who hold the 1965 interim missal to be a "New Mass". But Lefebvre, who equates "New Mass" to "Novus Ordo Missae"--and Lefebvre apologists who do the same--would be wholly correct in denying that Lefebvre offered the New Mass. Guérard des Lauriers recognises the confusion and apologises--but for something he never really meant, i.e., Lefebvre offered Mass using the 1969 missal.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???
    « Reply #43 on: February 14, 2023, 09:04:13 AM »
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    • Quote from: ElwinRansom1970 on February 14, 2023, 07:08:46 AM
    The heart of conflict in this thread seems to balance on an equivocal term: New Mass.

    I am curious about the original text of Msgr. Guérard des Lauriers' letter accusing Msgr. Lefebvre of celebrating the New Mass. I assume that this letter was composed in French. Is the expression used: "la Messe nouveaux", or something similar in French as I suspect? Was the Latin expression "Novus Ordo Missae" employed in the text, which I doubt. I have not seen the original text of the letter.

    Some here are equate Guérard des Lauriers' use of "New Mass" with the Novus Ordo Missae. Others see "New Mass" more broadly to include the 1965 interim missal as well as the additional alterations introduced to the interim missal in 1967. For myself, I do hold the 1962 missal to be a New Mass prototype as well as the 1955 Holy Week. I say this for full disclosure.

    We know that Guérard des Lauriers recanted his accusation that Lefebvre offered the Novus Ordo Missae. Guérard des Lauriers claims confusion by gestures made by Lefebvre that would suggest use of a "New Mass". Again, could this not be even here between the original agents a confusion arising from equivocal language?

    I very STRONGLY suspect that Lefebvre was offering Mass in these early 1970s using the 1965 interim missal probably with some or all 1967 changes. This would produce a liturgy visibly identicle to the Novus Ordo Missae. Only careful attention to the liturgical text itself would manifest the difference.

    In such case, Guérard des Lauriers makes the claim that Lefebvre used the New Mass--which he would be doing from the perspective of those who hold the 1965 interim missal to be a "New Mass". But Lefebvre, who equates "New Mass" to "Novus Ordo Missae"--and Lefebvre apologists who do the same--would be wholly correct in denying that Lefebvre offered the New Mass. Guérard des Lauriers recognises the confusion and apologises--but for something he never really meant, i.e., Lefebvre offered Mass using the 1969 missal.

    Surely des Lauriers would have made this distinction public? I mean regarding your idea that +ABL was really saying the 1965 interim missal with some or all of the 1967 changes.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Msgr. Lefebvre celebrated the new Mass???
    « Reply #44 on: February 14, 2023, 09:10:48 AM »
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    • Siscoe and Salza at it again.  Revising history, sowing discord and causing confusion among the faithful.  By their fruits, you will know them.  These guys are worse than carpet-bagging, snake-oil salesmen.  
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