Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Just not right........  (Read 13461 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline moneil

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 720
  • Reputation: +560/-62
  • Gender: Male
Re: Just not right........
« Reply #60 on: November 15, 2023, 10:51:28 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The thread seems to also lead to an interesting sidebar.  I have some interest in church history, and particularly how the Church developed and became established in the Pacific Northwest (US), and also in parish administration, as I’ve had some lay experience there.  Granted that there isn’t always enough priests to go around (even back in the “good days”) I’ve wondered why the SSPX has the “priory system” with priests traveling out every weekend and Holy Day, rather than having individual priests assigned to live at and serve one or more chapels with some proximity to each other.  With the latter arrangement a priest could more likely be available during the week for weekday morning Masses and evening devotions, home visits and sick calls, catechism and inquirers classes, marriage preparations, and so forth.  Then it occurred to me that Archbishop Lebfebvre was “back in the pre VII day” a “religious priest” (i.e. religious order priest), and they tended to live in community at the parish level.  On the other hand, what were called “secular priests” (i.e. diocesan priests) were different.  In urban areas a parish rectory might house the pastor, one to three assistant or associate pastors, perhaps a “retired” priest or two (priests never retired from being priests, but an elderly priest might find relief from administrative duties and go to live at and help out at a parish).  However, in rural areas (such as most of the Diocese of Spokane, WA where I live) priests are more likely to have their own bachelor quarters alone and serve one or two small parishes, perhaps a mission church or Mass station also.  There are always exceptions to the general rule, but I wonder if the SSPX “priory system” didn’t come from the founder’s perspective of being a religious order priest.


    Offline OABrownson1876

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 653
    • Reputation: +542/-27
    • Gender: Male
      • The Orestes Brownson Society
    Re: Just not right........
    « Reply #61 on: November 15, 2023, 11:23:24 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Any Catholic chat board can become a potential "gutter of sewage."  If some guy posts a phonographic image, the moderator catches it late, then a rumor starts, "Cathinfo allows porn..."  Fr Hewko was a little sore about something posted on Cathinfo, and made a generalization about some particular thing which displeased him.  It is not the most logical comment, but priests and bishops are allowed some latitude in their sermons.  The "Resistance" is really a collection of priests of bishops and priests on the run, and we cannot expect polished oratory at every turn.  
    Bryan Shepherd, M.A. Phil.
    PO Box 17248
    2312 S. Preston
    Louisville, Ky. 40217; email:letsgobryan@protonmail.com. substack: bryanshepherd.substack.com
    website: www.orestesbrownson.org. Rumble: rumble.com/user/Orestes76


    Offline Matthew

    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 32547
    • Reputation: +28764/-569
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Just not right........
    « Reply #62 on: November 15, 2023, 12:43:08 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Any Catholic chat board can become a potential "gutter of sewage."  If some guy posts a phonographic image, the moderator catches it late, then a rumor starts, "Cathinfo allows porn..."  Fr Hewko was a little sore about something posted on Cathinfo, and made a generalization about some particular thing which displeased him.  It is not the most logical comment, but priests and bishops are allowed some latitude in their sermons.  The "Resistance" is really a collection of priests of bishops and priests on the run, and we cannot expect polished oratory at every turn. 

    That's not the situation at all. And that doesn't excuse Fr. Hewko one bit.

    First of all, what space aliens are you talking about, who would act that way? That's not even how it works. Nor have I heard any cases of that. Every time a forum has been credibly accused of being a morass of filth or liberalism (Fisheaters for example, supporting non-married men and women living together, or defending transsɛҳuąƖs and referring to them by their "new" gender) it was QUITE blatant and the "offensive content" lasted much longer than 1 or 2 hours -- and was quite numerous to boot.

    In the scheme of things, a single pornographic image being posted on a good forum or platform -- one with a policy against such filth -- will be a flash in the pan, a statistical aberration, lasting only moments. No one runs with that and turns it into a bad reputation for a forum. I've never heard of this happening once.

    It's like saying a solid, widespread, timeless stereotype can exist without ANY basis in fact. No. Just no.

    Everyone "gets" the concept of Content Moderation. That is not something new. If I hear that X website (with USER GENERATED CONTENT) had something bad, and it's gone hours later, you write it off as "I guess the moderators got to it. Must not be allowed there. Good." and that's something we observe every day on countless websites.

    I don't care how bad the Crisis is, how few priests there are, what level of training he's had, there is no excuse for slander against good Traditional Catholics. He doesn't need to lie. You don't just "oops" slip into a mortal sin. If you could, it wouldn't be a mortal sin.

    We're not looking for "polished oratory". I don't care how down-to-earth or off-the-cuff a sermon is. But I do expect it to contain TRUTH and not various sins of the tongue within it. That's not too much to ask.
    Want to say "thank you"? 
    You can send me a gift from my Amazon wishlist!
    https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

    Paypal donations: matthew@chantcd.com

    Offline Seraphina

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3774
    • Reputation: +2762/-245
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Just not right........
    « Reply #63 on: November 15, 2023, 11:58:07 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I thought you were associated with SSPV?  I would have never taken you for a Hewko apologist.
    No, I’m not a Hewko apologist!  I was trying inject some humor, but hopefully, you recognized it.  Am I “associated” with the SSPV?  Not really.  But I sometimes attend Mass at an SSPV chapel.  I’m listen to What Catholics Believe online because I find Fr. Jenkins’ views quite reasonable and his explanations and demeanor to reflect a Catholic spirit.  

    Offline Plenus Venter

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1509
    • Reputation: +1235/-97
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Just not right........
    « Reply #64 on: November 16, 2023, 02:16:24 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Lefebvre worked with independent priests who were refugees from the conciliar church, not with those ordained to independent apostolates (and the fact that he never ordained any such priests was not accidental).
    I agree wholeheartedly.
    My comments were directed more at the example you gave of Fr G, who might have been a refugee from the SSPX!
    But is what Bishop Williamson has done really against the constitution of the Church as you noted before?
    Archbishop Lefebvre had a Society to ordain priests for, and it was the closest thing to a diocesan priest as could be had under the circuмstances, and then there was a choice of religious communities faithful to Tradition. Rightly he refused to ordain priests who wanted to be a law unto themselves.
    However, could it not be argued that the crisis has advanced to another level? Must Bishop Williamson erect a Society to accept all the candidates he ordains and consecrates? Perhaps the state of the Church and world being what they now are, the situation is more like to times of persecution? Could not the state of necessity justify all the means necessary to continue to spread the Faith and minister to souls? Is one large traditional stronghold like the SSPX of old the only solution, the best solution?
    There still exists the moral authority of the Bishop over those he ordains, and perhaps it is difficult to ask for much more under the current circuмstances. They are certainly ordained for a specific resistance apostolate, even if not for some order of the Church.
    Likewise, he consecrates bishops who in turn establish little churches everywhere they are required to continue to spread the Faith and give us the means of salvation.
    If you think I am writing these lines to defend Bishop Williamson, I am! Because I don't know the answers, I don't think it's dogma, and I believe Bishop Williamson is more likely to know than I what is required, and what is in-keeping with his mission as a successor of the Apostles. I might not have written so ten years ago...


    Offline TheRealMcCoy

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1332
    • Reputation: +951/-197
    • Gender: Female
    • The Thread Killer
    Re: Just not right........
    « Reply #65 on: November 16, 2023, 03:35:45 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • No, I’m not a Hewko apologist!  I was trying inject some humor, but hopefully, you recognized it.  Am I “associated” with the SSPV?  Not really.  But I sometimes attend Mass at an SSPV chapel.  I’m listen to What Catholics Believe online because I find Fr. Jenkins’ views quite reasonable and his explanations and demeanor to reflect a Catholic spirit. 
     Father Jenkins is one of the best things on the internet.

    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15060
    • Reputation: +10006/-3162
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Just not right........
    « Reply #66 on: November 16, 2023, 06:20:33 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • I agree wholeheartedly.
    My comments were directed more at the example you gave of Fr G, who might have been a refugee from the SSPX!
    But is what Bishop Williamson has done really against the constitution of the Church as you noted before?
    Archbishop Lefebvre had a Society to ordain priests for, and it was the closest thing to a diocesan priest as could be had under the circuмstances, and then there was a choice of religious communities faithful to Tradition. Rightly he refused to ordain priests who wanted to be a law unto themselves.
    However, could it not be argued that the crisis has advanced to another level? Must Bishop Williamson erect a Society to accept all the candidates he ordains and consecrates? Perhaps the state of the Church and world being what they now are, the situation is more like to times of persecution? Could not the state of necessity justify all the means necessary to continue to spread the Faith and minister to souls? Is one large traditional stronghold like the SSPX of old the only solution, the best solution?
    There still exists the moral authority of the Bishop over those he ordains, and perhaps it is difficult to ask for much more under the current circuмstances. They are certainly ordained for a specific resistance apostolate, even if not for some order of the Church.
    Likewise, he consecrates bishops who in turn establish little churches everywhere they are required to continue to spread the Faith and give us the means of salvation.
    If you think I am writing these lines to defend Bishop Williamson, I am! Because I don't know the answers, I don't think it's dogma, and I believe Bishop Williamson is more likely to know than I what is required, and what is in-keeping with his mission as a successor of the Apostles. I might not have written so ten years ago...

    I guess we’re going to have to disagree. 

    I believe Lefebvre’s organization of the apostolate is the correct and Catholic approach, not Thuc’s.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Matthew

    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 32547
    • Reputation: +28764/-569
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Just not right........
    « Reply #67 on: November 16, 2023, 08:56:54 AM »
  • Thanks!3
  • No Thanks!1
  • I believe Lefebvre’s organization of the apostolate is the correct and Catholic approach, not Thuc’s.

    What was wrong with Thuc's approach, fundamentally? Why not be more specific with the criticism, rather than using "Thuc" as a bad word?

    Maybe Thuc just did something morally neutral or good at the wrong TIME, which in conclusion would make him WRONG.

    Putting 2 million dollars into Real Estate in 2007 would have been a disaster. Doing the same thing in late 2008 (after the housing crash) would have been brilliant. Same exact action: different timing. Timing matters.

    To be good, the thing has to be completely good. "Bonum est ex integra causa". That includes TIMING.
    A thing is bad if even ONE PART of it is bad. "Malum ex quocuмque defectu" One such element is TIMING.

    And degree, or quantity, are also elements of the equation. Consecrating a handful of bishops to continue Tradition would be a good thing. But consecrating hundreds, maybe including your mailman, your barber, the guy who cuts your grass -- that would also be a defect making the subtotal of your activities WRONG. You can't hand out the episcopacy like Oprah. "YOU get an episcopate. YOU get an episcopate. YOU ALL get an episcopate!"

    And going crazy is also bad. They say Thuc went crazy towards the end. But I don't know, that's just what I heard.

    I'm just real sold on the concept that the 2020's are a whole different animal than the 1970s, ESPECIALLY in the world of Tradition which is what matters. There are only so many Trads, and most of this limited resource have been absorbed into the microcosm (mini-version) of the Modern World that is the SSPX. They even have Media, propaganda, and an authoritarian structure which could command their followers in just about any arbitrary way. They have an insane level of control, really. They tell their members to avoid specifically online Trad Catholic discussions, for crying out loud! That's not to protect their purity.

    The neo-SSPX managed to turn 90% of their followers against a man who is VERY MUCH LIKE Archbishop Lefebvre, at least in his position on the Crisis, and his large scale actions (consecrating good bishops to carry on the work of Tradition). But you don't have to be French to be like +ABL where it counts -- nor do you have to do anything superficially 1970's. In fact, +ABL's crowning virtue was PRUDENCE and big-picture wisdom -- which +Williamson has in spades. And +W is literally the hand-picked successor, the first choice of +ABL when he had to choose just 1 candidate to be bishop. And when the SSPX kicked him out, most people didn't know or care! Even if you disagree with +W, or even if you think he was in the wrong somehow, you gotta admit -- people should have NOTICED or CARED that +ABL's favorite successor just got kicked out of the organization. Come on!
    Want to say "thank you"? 
    You can send me a gift from my Amazon wishlist!
    https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

    Paypal donations: matthew@chantcd.com


    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 11978
    • Reputation: +7525/-2265
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Just not right........
    « Reply #68 on: November 16, 2023, 10:37:38 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    What was wrong with Thuc's approach, fundamentally?
    Nothing.  It's pure preference.

    Much like some contemplative Benedictine monks who would criticize Dominican friars for "not praying enough" or the Franciscans for "wasting time on preaching".  The Franciscans might say the Benedictines could "do more out in the real world".  The Dominicans could say both of the others should "teach the youth more".

    The Church needs all these orders; she needs all kinds of people doing all kinds of things.  The Church needed +ABL, She needed independent priests, and She needed the sede movement too.  (She doesn't need the fighting but that's a different topic).

    In hindsight, had every Traditional priest in the 70s joined the sspx, so that there was one big mega-Trad organization, would that have prevented +Fellay's traitorous acts?  Doubt it.  So Trad-land would be in a WORSE spot than it is today.  God's Providence knew this, imo.

    Offline OABrownson1876

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 653
    • Reputation: +542/-27
    • Gender: Male
      • The Orestes Brownson Society
    Re: Just not right........
    « Reply #69 on: November 16, 2023, 11:44:50 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • That's not the situation at all. And that doesn't excuse Fr. Hewko one bit.

    First of all, what space aliens are you talking about, who would act that way? That's not even how it works. Nor have I heard any cases of that. Every time a forum has been credibly accused of being a morass of filth or liberalism (Fisheaters for example, supporting non-married men and women living together, or defending transsɛҳuąƖs and referring to them by their "new" gender) it was QUITE blatant and the "offensive content" lasted much longer than 1 or 2 hours -- and was quite numerous to boot.

    In the scheme of things, a single pornographic image being posted on a good forum or platform -- one with a policy against such filth -- will be a flash in the pan, a statistical aberration, lasting only moments. No one runs with that and turns it into a bad reputation for a forum. I've never heard of this happening once.

    It's like saying a solid, widespread, timeless stereotype can exist without ANY basis in fact. No. Just no.

    Everyone "gets" the concept of Content Moderation. That is not something new. If I hear that X website (with USER GENERATED CONTENT) had something bad, and it's gone hours later, you write it off as "I guess the moderators got to it. Must not be allowed there. Good." and that's something we observe every day on countless websites.

    I don't care how bad the Crisis is, how few priests there are, what level of training he's had, there is no excuse for slander against good Traditional Catholics. He doesn't need to lie. You don't just "oops" slip into a mortal sin. If you could, it wouldn't be a mortal sin.

    We're not looking for "polished oratory". I don't care how down-to-earth or off-the-cuff a sermon is. But I do expect it to contain TRUTH and not various sins of the tongue within it. That's not too much to ask.
    I am with you Matthew, it sure seems like a case of slander to me.  The definition of slander is to say "untrue and hurtful things publicly," and what Fr. Hewko said seems to meet this definition.  It is really a case of libel, since Cathinfo is a quasi-public forum, and Fr. said these things in a sermon, which is to be taken as a public statement.  Some lawyers will argue that libel, from the Latin 'Liber,' book, is something written, and will distinguish between libel and slander.  My guess is that Fr. probably spoke, apparently, in a moment of passion.  Hopefully he will apologize, as most of us who have spent a good deal of time on Cathinfo know that what he alleges is not true.    

    Bryan Shepherd, M.A. Phil.
    PO Box 17248
    2312 S. Preston
    Louisville, Ky. 40217; email:letsgobryan@protonmail.com. substack: bryanshepherd.substack.com
    website: www.orestesbrownson.org. Rumble: rumble.com/user/Orestes76

    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15060
    • Reputation: +10006/-3162
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Just not right........
    « Reply #70 on: November 16, 2023, 12:53:17 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • What was wrong with Thuc's approach, fundamentally?

    It is in direct contradiction to the hierarchical constitution of the Church.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Matthew

    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 32547
    • Reputation: +28764/-569
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Just not right........
    « Reply #71 on: November 16, 2023, 01:21:47 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • It is in direct contradiction to the hierarchical constitution of the Church.

    Um... you do know that +ABL did the same thing in 1988, don't you? He consecrated FOUR bishops WITHOUT papal mandate. Zero permission was given by the Pope for that action. Which is REQUIRED. Normally, under normal circuмstances.

    The SSPX is in the same canonical status as any Thuc-line independent priest offering Sunday Mass for 50 people in a converted trailer. Just that the SSPX is on a much larger SCALE, with many more parishioners, enough real estate to make our Old Testament brethren jealous, and a bigger bank account (again, the Red Sea Pedestrians are jealous).

    But canonically there is literally no difference between their respective apostolates. Both are operating with no official jurisdiction, outside Church hierarchy and authority, with supplied jurisdiction on account of the unprecedented Crisis in the Church.

    Imagine that: The brand-new St. Mary's church, or St. Isidores (a full church built by the SSPX) with hundreds of parishioners, EXACTLY THE SAME STATUS as some independent priest saying Mass for 20 people in a hotel room. Kind of humbling, isn't it?

    As I've said many times, you don't just get to look down on small groups, independent priests, small groups like the Resistance as being somehow fundamentally different or way beneath you, just because you've acquired your 2,000th parishioner, your 5 millionth dollar, your 30th year "in business", or reached $3 million in real estate. That's not how it works. That gives you exactly ZERO added legitimacy. Supplied jurisdiction is still supplied jurisdiction. A technically illicit Mass center is still an illicit Mass center.

    Just saying.
    Want to say "thank you"? 
    You can send me a gift from my Amazon wishlist!
    https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

    Paypal donations: matthew@chantcd.com

    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15060
    • Reputation: +10006/-3162
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Just not right........
    « Reply #72 on: November 16, 2023, 01:32:02 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Um... you do know that +ABL did the same thing in 1988, don't you? He consecrated FOUR bishops WITHOUT papal mandate. Zero permission was given by the Pope for that action. Which is REQUIRED. Normally, under normal circuмstances.

    The SSPX is in the same canonical status as any Thuc-line independent priest offering Sunday Mass for 50 people in a converted trailer. Just that the SSPX is on a much larger SCALE, with many more parishioners, enough real estate to make our Old Testament brethren jealous, and a bigger bank account (again, the Red Sea Pedestrians are jealous).

    But canonically there is literally no difference between their respective apostolates. Both are operating with no official jurisdiction, outside Church hierarchy and authority, with supplied jurisdiction on account of the unprecedented Crisis in the Church.

    Imagine that: The brand-new St. Mary's church, or St. Isidores (a full church built by the SSPX) with hundreds of parishioners, EXACTLY THE SAME STATUS as some independent priest saying Mass for 20 people in a hotel room. Kind of humbling, isn't it?

    Just saying.

    Red herring:

    It is not the lack of papal mandate which is at issue, but an organization of the apostolate opposed to the hierarchical constitution of the Church.

    The bishops Lefebvre consecrated operated within an hierarchical "congregation."
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Matthew

    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 32547
    • Reputation: +28764/-569
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Just not right........
    « Reply #73 on: November 16, 2023, 01:57:49 PM »
  • Thanks!3
  • No Thanks!0
  • So what kind of replacement "hierarchical congregation" besides, you know, the CATHOLIC CHURCH HIERARCHY, qualifies as enough to make it legitimate and moral?

    What traits must it have before it qualifies?

    Is it a 501.3 (c) that gives legitimacy? Would having this IRS non-profit status change the moral situation of a priest offering Mass outside normal ecclesiastical structures and authority? Or perhaps some other government form you fill out?

    What if an independent priest works with a trad bishop of some kind, albeit very loosely and doesn't see him on a regular basis? Does the priest have to attend official yearly Priest Meetings at an ex-Dominican Novitiate building in, say, Winona MN to be in a legitimate "hierarchical" situation?

    Does the priest's superior have to give him 3 significant commands a year to establish this hierarchical situation, or what?

    Or does the replacement Church hierarchy pretty much have to be called "SSPX" to be legitimate?
    Want to say "thank you"? 
    You can send me a gift from my Amazon wishlist!
    https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

    Paypal donations: matthew@chantcd.com

    Offline Matthew

    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 32547
    • Reputation: +28764/-569
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Just not right........
    « Reply #74 on: November 16, 2023, 02:00:34 PM »
  • Thanks!3
  • No Thanks!0
  • Seems difficult to start talking about authority, jurisdiction, and hierarchy OUTSIDE AND ALOOF FROM THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AUTHORITY STRUCTURES without sounding, oh, I don't know ...schismatic.

    See, the world of Tradition has always had a more humble pose, talking only about supplied jurisdiction. But the downside is: everyone is equal.

    I know that "the mind of the Church" is for every priest to be either A) in a religious order subject to superiors or B) a secular priest subject to the bishop and the general Church hierarchy. So you have no arguments there.

    The question is: what is the status of an SSPX priest vs. some boogeyman "vagus" Independent priest.

    If I were a priest trying to save my soul in 2023 I would be in the Resistance, but I would check my human ambition, pride, and other temptations by placing myself under a good bishop I could trust. And guess what? That is MORE than possible today. There are options. It's not impossible. So I could keep the *spirit* of my vocation, and like +Lefebvre maintain the spirit of the Church as much as possible. The Church doesn't enjoy seeing priests "on their own" being their own boss.

    Priests should be doing their best. Doing their best to do GOD'S will, rather than their own will. Knowing their human frailty, they should seek to practice Obedience which is the surest path to doing God's will rather than their own.

    But if it becomes difficult or morally impossible for a priest, perhaps due to human fallout, geographical distance or something, then I don't see anything fundamentally wrong with the priest being independent. I guess you could say I don't believe it's intrinsically evil. And what about priests who are old enough to retire? Do they have to beg one, or all, Trad bishops to let them stay in one place due to their age? It's a difficult question.

    That's why I ask, again: what is required, practically speaking, for a priest to be "plugged in" to an emergency lifeboat "hierarchical congregation"? Does the group pretty much have to have the initials S.S.P.X. for legitimacy, or is something much smaller also possible?
    Want to say "thank you"? 
    You can send me a gift from my Amazon wishlist!
    https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

    Paypal donations: matthew@chantcd.com