Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

« previous next »
Pages: 1 2 [3]

Author Topic: Juan Cardinal Torquemada Vindicates R&R  (Read 2371 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline hollingsworth

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2790
  • Reputation: +2894/-513
  • Gender: Male
Re: Juan Cardinal Torquemada Vindicates R&R
« Reply #30 on: August 16, 2018, 12:40:57 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote
    Sean is anything but manly. He pounds his chest loudly, but he is just an everyday, garden variety bully.
    I'm beginning to think that Sean is an everyday, garden variety moron.  These forums seem always to attract a couple of these extra-planetary types.  This guy reminds of the Dickens character, Mr. Murdstone, in his work David Copperfield.  I think the trad Catholic movement has a dangerously high level of these all-knowing self-righteous individuals invading its ranks.

    I know that SJ will have make some kind of ridiculous, hysterical and asinine response.  It is as predictable as the sun rising.  
    Logged

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 10313
    • Reputation: +6220/-1742
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Juan Cardinal Torquemada Vindicates R&R
    « Reply #31 on: August 16, 2018, 01:09:32 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote
    Unfortunately, I believe you believe that, and cannot see the liberal tradcuмenism implicit in your position.
    There's nothing more "tradcuмenist" than saying that a catholic can go to the NO mass for "spiritual emergencies' sake".
    Logged

    Offline JPaul

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3832
    • Reputation: +3722/-293
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Juan Cardinal Torquemada Vindicates R&R
    « Reply #32 on: August 16, 2018, 01:21:13 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: hollingsworth on August 16, 2018, 12:40:57 PM
    I'm beginning to think that Sean is an everyday, garden variety moron.  These forums seem always to attract a couple of these extra-planetary types.  This guy reminds of the Dickens character, Mr. Murdstone, in his work David Copperfield.  I think the trad Catholic movement has a dangerously high level of these all-knowing self-righteous individuals invading its ranks.

    I know that SJ will have make some kind of ridiculous, hysterical and asinine response.  It is as predictable as the sun rising.  
    :laugh1: :laugh2: :laugh1:
    Logged

    Offline JPaul

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3832
    • Reputation: +3722/-293
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Juan Cardinal Torquemada Vindicates R&R
    « Reply #33 on: August 16, 2018, 01:23:45 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 16, 2018, 01:09:32 PM
    There's nothing more "tradcuмenist" than saying that a catholic can go to the NO mass for "spiritual emergencies' sake".
    Bingo!!!!! 
    Logged

    Offline Last Tradhican

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6293
    • Reputation: +3327/-1937
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Juan Cardinal Torquemada Vindicates R&R
    « Reply #34 on: August 16, 2018, 02:55:09 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on August 16, 2018, 12:10:53 PM
    Unfortunately, I believe you believe that, and cannot see the liberal tradcuмenism implicit in your position.
    What is the liberal "tradcuмenism" implicit in my position that I can't see?
    Logged
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 10062
    • Reputation: +5256/-916
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Juan Cardinal Torquemada Vindicates R&R
    « Reply #35 on: August 16, 2018, 03:41:18 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on August 16, 2018, 10:24:38 AM
    Who made that quote, what is the source?
    Hi Last Tradhican,

    It is cited in a few different places and is always referred to as the teaching of Cardinal Torquemada himself.  Here is one place:

    http://www.catholictradition.org/Tradition/catholic-tradition.htm

    I can't seem to find the original source/his original quote.
    Logged
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Struthio

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1650
    • Reputation: +453/-366
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Juan Cardinal Torquemada Vindicates R&R
    « Reply #36 on: August 16, 2018, 03:53:41 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Who cares about what one theologian said? Do Catholics follow opinions of theologians? No! We listen to authorized shepherds, like e.g. Pope Paul IV who decreed cuм ex apostolatus officio, referenced by Canon law (Canon 188 §4).
    Logged
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Offline AlbertP

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 34
    • Reputation: +18/-10
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Juan Cardinal Torquemada Vindicates R&R
    « Reply #37 on: August 16, 2018, 04:57:08 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Struthio on August 16, 2018, 03:53:41 PM
    Who cares about what one theologian said? Do Catholics follow opinions of theologians? No! We listen to authorized shepherds, like e.g. Pope Paul IV who decreed cuм ex apostolatus officio, referenced by Canon law (Canon 188 §4).

    Paul IV, cuм ex Apostolatus Officio: "In assessing Our duty and the situation now prevailing, We have been weighed upon by the thought that a matter of this kind is so grave and so dangerous that the Roman Pontiff, who is the representative upon earth of God and our God and Lord Jesus Christ, who holds the fullness of power over peoples and kingdoms, who may judge all and be judged by none in this world, may nonetheless be contradicted if he be found to have deviated from the Faith.”

    Logged

    Offline Last Tradhican

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6293
    • Reputation: +3327/-1937
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Juan Cardinal Torquemada Vindicates R&R
    « Reply #38 on: August 16, 2018, 06:00:59 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • There's more to it than the quote that the OP posted:

    Cardinal Juan de Torquemada [1388-1468]

    Cardinal Juan de Torquemada [1388-1468] was a revered medieval theologian responsible for the formulation of the doctrines that were defined at Florence. Cardinal Torquemada, who is considered an ardent "papalist", teaches: "Were the Pope to command anything against Holy Scriptures, or the articles of faith, or the truth of the Sacraments, or the commands of the natural or Divine law, he ought not to be obeyed, but in such commands he is to be disregarded." [Summa de ecclesia (Venice: M. Tranmezium, 1561). Lib. II, c. 49, p. 163B. Translation from J.H. Newman, A Letter Addressed to His Grace the Duke of Norfolk on Occasion of Mr. Gladstone's Recent Expostulation (New York: The Catholic Publication Society, 1875), p. 86. This statement of Juan de Torquemada is found on page 171 of The Papacy in Transition by Patrick Granfield (New York: Doubleday, 1980). This book received high praise from Father (now Cardinal) Avery Dulles, SJ.]


     "Thus it is that Pope Innocent III states [De Consuetudine] that, it is necessary to obey the Pope in all things as long as he, himself, does not go against the universal customs of the Church, but should he go against the universal customs of the Church, 'he need not be followed' . . . " [Cited from A Theological Vindication of Roman Catholic Traditionalism, Father Paul Kramer, B.Ph., S.T.D., M. Div. (2nd edition, St. Francis Press, India) p. 29. The full quotation from Cardinal Torquemada reads, "By disobedience, the Pope can separate himself from Christ despite the fact that he is head of the Church, for above all, the unity of the Church is dependent on its relationship with Christ. The Pope can separate himself from Christ either by disobeying the law of Christ, or by commanding something that is against the Divine or natural law." It follows, then, that if it is possible for a Pope to command something against Divine law, then it is likewise possible for a Pope to permit something that is against Divine or natural law, or go against the traditional teaching of the Church. Cardinal Torquemada continues: "By doing so, the Pope separates himself from the body of the Church because the body is itself linked to Christ by obedience. In this way the Pope could, without doubt, fall into schism . . . Especially is this true with regard to the Divine liturgy as for example, if he did not wish personally to follow the universal customs and rites of the Church. . . Thus it is that Pope Innocent III states (De Consuetudine) that, it is necessary to obey the Pope in all things as long as he, himself does not go against the universal customs of the Church, but should he go against the universal customs of the Church, 'he need not be followed . . . "
    Logged
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24
    Pages: 1 2 [3]
    « previous next »