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Author Topic: Juan Cardinal Torquemada Vindicates R&R  (Read 2358 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Juan Cardinal Torquemada Vindicates R&R
« on: August 14, 2018, 07:34:56 PM »
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    • Hmm...

    Looks like the famous theologian and inquisitor would have sided with Archbishop Lefebvre:

    Juan Cardinal De Torquemada O.P. († 1468) expressly related Acts 5:29 to the duty to resist a wayward pontiff:

    “Although it clearly follows from the circuмstances that the Pope can err at times, and command things which must not be done, that we are not to be simply obedient to him in all things, that does not show that he must not be obeyed by all when his commands are good. To know in what cases he is to be obeyed and in what not, it is said in the Acts of the Apostles: 'One ought to obey God rather than man'; therefore, were the Pope to command anything against Holy Scripture, or the articles of faith, or the truth of the Sacraments, or the commands of the natural or divine law, he ought not to be obeyed, but in such commands, to be passed over. (Summa de Ecclesia)

    :popcorn:
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Juan Cardinal Torquemada Vindicates R&R
    « Reply #1 on: August 14, 2018, 08:07:56 PM »
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    • Citation for quote above:

    Summa De Ecclesia., pp. 47-48, cited in Newman, John Henry, A Letter addressed to His Grace, The Duke of Norfolk (London: BM Pickering, 1875), p. 52
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Juan Cardinal Torquemada Vindicates R&R
    « Reply #2 on: August 14, 2018, 08:11:58 PM »
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    • More from Juan de Torquemada:

    “Thus it is that Pope Innocent states (in De Consuetudine) that it is necessary to obey a Pope in all things as long as he does not himself go against the universal customs of the Church, but should he go against the universal customs of the church, he ought not to be obeyed…”

    Summa De Ecclesia (cited in Coomaraswamy, The Destruction of the Christian Tradition, p. 110).

    Ps: Contrary to what I stated in the OP, I believe it was Juan de Torquemada’s unclewho was the Grand Inquisitor
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Wessex

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    Re: Juan Cardinal Torquemada Vindicates R&R
    « Reply #3 on: August 15, 2018, 06:54:07 AM »
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    • There is a huge difference between obeying a faulty pope and one heading a replacement church with replacement beliefs, policies and practices.  
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    Offline JPaul

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    Re: Juan Cardinal Torquemada Vindicates R&R
    « Reply #4 on: August 15, 2018, 08:00:17 AM »
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    • Quote from: Wessex on August 15, 2018, 06:54:07 AM
    There is a huge difference between obeying a faulty pope and one heading a replacement church with replacement beliefs, policies and practices.  
    Indeed, and If Torquemada were here today he would have Francis on the Inquisitor's chair and lighting the match himself. 
    This is a misuse of the Cardinal's words to advocate heresy. The Cardinal had convicted many men of heresy on much less evidence than that which is available today.
    Shameful!
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Juan Cardinal Torquemada Vindicates R&R
    « Reply #5 on: August 15, 2018, 11:38:29 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on August 14, 2018, 08:11:58 PM

    Ps: Contrary to what I stated in the OP, I believe it was Juan de Torquemada’s unclewho was the Grand Inquisitor
    And I thought you were the Grand Inquisitor!   :laugh1:
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Juan Cardinal Torquemada Vindicates R&R
    « Reply #6 on: August 15, 2018, 11:45:17 AM »
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    • Thus far, 3 empty sede responses, with no explanation of how or why Torquemada can be discussing a pope teaching false doctrines, when the seeds contend such a thing is impossible (and by that very fact, he would lose the papacy).

    Obviously, Torquemada disagrees (and he is keeping good company, with Cajetan, John of St. Thomas, Billuart, Billot, Vittoria, and yes, Bellarmine).

    :popcorn:
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Juan Cardinal Torquemada Vindicates R&R
    « Reply #7 on: August 15, 2018, 11:48:53 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on August 15, 2018, 11:45:17 AM
    Thus far, 3 empty sede responses, with no explanation of how or why Torquemada can be discussing a pope teaching false doctrines, when the seeds contend such a thing is impossible (and by that very fact, he would lose the papacy).

    Obviously, Torquemada disagrees (and he is keeping good company, with Cajetan, John of St. Thomas, Billuart, Billot, Vittoria, and yes, Bellarmine).

    :popcorn:
    I'm sorry Sean...where does he state that he's talking about the pope teaching heresy to the Universal Church?
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Juan Cardinal Torquemada Vindicates R&R
    « Reply #8 on: August 15, 2018, 11:55:26 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on August 15, 2018, 11:48:53 AM
    I'm sorry Sean...where does he state that he's talking about the pope teaching heresy to the Universal Church?
    Aw, you’re right:

    Torquemada was talking about him teaching heresy to the Girl Scouts!
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Juan Cardinal Torquemada Vindicates R&R
    « Reply #9 on: August 15, 2018, 12:05:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on August 15, 2018, 11:55:26 AM
    Aw, you’re right:

    Torquemada was talking about him teaching heresy to the Girl Scouts!
    Aw, Sean...show me where he's speaking about teaching heresy period.
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Juan Cardinal Torquemada Vindicates R&R
    « Reply #10 on: August 15, 2018, 12:10:46 PM »
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    • The objection implicit in 2Vermont’s question is the assertion that Torquemada was only considering the pope teaching heresy either as a private doctor (ie, not in his magisterial capacity), or, only to private individuals or groups (but not the universal Church).

    But both objections are easily refuted not just from the context of the book from which they are taken (more citations later), but also from an appeal to reason:

    Torquemada says we must obey the good commands of the pope, but resist his bad commands.

    But since the pope has no authority to compel us to do anything as a private doctor (unless we are speaking of matters pertaining to the confessional), it necessarily follows that Torquemada was considering the pope teaching in his magisterial capacity.

    :popcorn:
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Juan Cardinal Torquemada Vindicates R&R
    « Reply #11 on: August 15, 2018, 12:14:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on August 15, 2018, 12:05:40 PM
    Aw, Sean...show me where he's speaking about teaching heresy period.
    There, there 2V-

    It seems I have given you quite a fright.

    Might be best for you to duck out of this one, woman.

    For the men: The OP speaks of the pope teaching against the articles of faith (ie, heretical).

    :popcorn:
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Juan Cardinal Torquemada Vindicates R&R
    « Reply #12 on: August 15, 2018, 03:43:07 PM »
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    •  :laugh1: You don't scare me Sean.  

    Assuming your interpretation of the above Torquemada quotes is accurate, here's another one:

    By disobedience the Pope can separate himself from Christ despite the fact that he is head of the Church, for above all, the unity of the Church is dependent on its relationship with Christ. The Pope can separate himself from Christ by either disobeying the laws of Christ, or by commanding something that is against the divine or natural law. By doing so, the Pope separates himself from the body of the Church because this body is itself linked to Christ by obedience. In this way the Pope could, without doubt, fall into schism ... 

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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline JPaul

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    Re: Juan Cardinal Torquemada Vindicates R&R
    « Reply #13 on: August 15, 2018, 03:54:43 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on August 15, 2018, 12:14:40 PM
    There, there 2V-

    It seems I have given you quite a fright.

    Might be best for you to duck out of this one, woman.

    For the men: The OP speaks of the pope teaching against the articles of faith (ie, heretical).

    :popcorn:
    Vermont2,  A show of rudeness does not make one formidable in any arena.
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    Offline JPaul

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    Re: Juan Cardinal Torquemada Vindicates R&R
    « Reply #14 on: August 15, 2018, 03:57:27 PM »
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    • Sean which conciliar papal teaching have you submitted to specifically?
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