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Author Topic: Joseph Augustine Di Noia: A Faulty Traditionalist Condemnation  (Read 632 times)

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Offline stevusmagnus

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  • http://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/otc.cfm?id=982

    Joseph Augustine Di Noia: A Faulty Traditionalist Condemnation
     
    By Dr. Jeff Mirus  

    Readers have called my attention to the Traditionalist denunciations of Archbishop Joseph Augustine Di Noia, since he has been appointed Vice President of the Ecclesia Dei Commission, and of Archbishop Gerhard Müller, now that he has been named Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. It is not surprising that defenders of the Society of Saint Pius X should be sensitive concerning these posts, but the wild denunciations of these two men which have been circulating around the web are nothing short of ludicrous. I’ll take up the Di Noia condemnation here, and leave the Müller condemnation to a subsequent post.

    A classic case of the condemnation of Archbishop Di Noia is John Vennari’s tirade in Catholic Family News, in which Vennari somehow regards it as a damning admission on Di Noia’s part that negotiations between the Church and the SSPX are designed to convert the Society to Conciliar thinking. Considering that the neuralgic point in these negotiations is Rome’s insistence that the Society accept the Magisterium of the Council and of the modern papacy, this “admission” hardly constitutes a surprise.

    Worse, Vennari purports to prove that Di Noia’s remarks also constitute an admission that the Second Vatican Council and the modern papacy have changed the teachings of the Church, once again casting the Society in the role of the faithful remnant. He does this by citing Di Noia’s comments on relations with Jєωs, which are another very sore spot for the SSPX, especially given the notorious and undisguised anti-Semitism of many of its adherents—something frequently noted by those who have left the SSPX in horror.

    Di Noia had said that “after three years of dialogue we still need to understand what the SSPX position is on the Jєωιѕн Community and Judaism”, and Vennari is incredulous. He claims the SSPX simply holds what the Church has always held—but then ruins his claim by stating that what the Church has always held is that “all non-Catholics, Jєωs included, must convert to the Catholic Church for salvation.” Unfortunately, the word “convert” seems clearly intended to indicate a formal, conscious acceptance of the teachings of the Catholic Church and a formal, conscious submission to its authority. But it has never been Catholic doctrine that this is required for salvation and, in any case, this set of requirements would already rule out adherents of the SSPX, who manifestly refuse submission to the Church’s authority.

    No, the ancient phrase “extra ecclesiam nulla salus” means something far less formal—and happily far more substantial—than that. To understand it, we must recall that, for Saint Paul, being joined to Christ is the same thing as being joined to the Church (Christ’s body), and this joining comes through belief in, trust in and obedience to God according to whatever degree of truth the Holy Spirit writes in each person’s heart (see What Does it Mean to Be Saved?). Far from undermining earlier teachings on this question, the more recent teachings of the Magisterium—especially those of Pope Pius XII, Vatican II and John Paul II—demonstrate the compatibility of the entire corpus of Catholic teaching with Saint Paul. This is precisely why the decree of the Council of Florence, which Vennari joins other Traditionalists in constantly yet inexplicably citing, is so careful to say of pagans, Jєωs, heretics and schismatics not that they must convert to Catholicism or become juridical members of the Church to be saved, but only that they must at some point before death be “joined” to her. (Never mind what many of those at the Council of Florence really might have thought; the Holy Spirit always protects the Magisterium from mistakes in faith and morals, regardless of the personal inclinations, misunderstandings and prejudices of popes, or bishops in council—a truth we can also apply to the teachings of Vatican II.)

    Moreover, Di Noia was right when, pace Vennari, he asserted that Pope John Paul II placed a new emphasis on the Pauline teaching concerning the Jєωs. But when Di Noia stated that Vatican II “wrought a fundamental change” in Catholic-Jєωιѕн relations, and that Pope John Paul II’s pontificate “marked a major shift” in the theological understanding of Judaism, he was not referring (as Vennari so blithely assumes) to any sort of contradiction in the magisterial teachings of the Church but to a deeper theological understanding of the role of the Jєωs in salvation history, as Di Noia specifically noted.

    After all, did the Church ever teach that the Jєωs are to be summarily dismissed as guilty of Deicide? Or that the election of the Jєωs has no continuing relevance to salvation history? Hardly. It really is important, then, for the Commission to figure out what the heck the SSPX actually believes about the Jєωs, apart from the mere prejudices of many of its adherents. The task has been far from simple, and the intellectual shoddiness of attempting to use Di Noia’s remarks as the basis for a charge of heresy is breathtaking.

    In fact Vennari proceeds to hang himself with his own rope. He contrasts the attitude of Di Noia and the contemporary Magisterium with that of Pope Pius XI who, in a prayer consecrating the world to the Sacred Heart, referred to the Jєωs as “once Thy chosen people”. He seems not to realize that this very phrase is theologically unfortunate. At the very least, it is contrary to what St. Paul teaches, namely, that God’s election of the Jєωs is permanent. You’ll find this in Romans 11, which begins, “I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means!” (11:1) and goes on to emphasize that “the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable” (11:29).

    Pope Pius XI taught no heresy, of course, though the wording of this prayer may have been a bit careless. But the citation reminds us that there are deep theological mysteries here, and that they must be explored very carefully indeed. It also reminds us, when questions of heresy arise, to be equally careful about selecting properly Magisterial sources. Unfortunately, Vennari (and many Traditionalists who tend to think like him) too easily content themselves with insisting on the “obvious”, when what is so obvious to them may not, in fact, be a complete or even a correct understanding of what the Church teaches.

    Do you have doubts? I propose a thought experiment. Read Romans chapter 11 slowly in its entirety. Though it does not contain everything that Scripture (or even St. Paul) has to say on the subject, it does explore the condition of the Jєωs and some aspects of the theological relationship between Jєωs and Gentiles, that is, Jєωs and most Christians. Read it slowly and carefully and then try to argue that there are no depths here that need to be carefully explored, depths that admit of continuing developments and changing emphases (but never contradictions) in Magisterial teaching.

    But don’t be like John Vennari. Don’t approach the text thinking you know everything, or that it is a simple matter to articulate the full implications of Revelation on so deep a subject, or even that the Church herself has necessarily already taught everything that we would like to know. Instead, do the one thing that most critics of Pope Benedict XVI so steadfastly refuse to do: Read carefully.



    Offline InstaurareEcclesiam

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    Joseph Augustine Di Noia: A Faulty Traditionalist Condemnation
    « Reply #1 on: July 11, 2012, 08:13:33 AM »
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  • A totally ridiculous article filled with prideful anti-traditional stances.

    Yes, the election of the Jєωs ended and is no longer relevant.

    Someone not admitting that, is no longer a member of the Roman Catholic Church. It is Church dogma, that the New Covenant replaced the Old Covenant.

    This is a dogma of Faith. Those denying or relativizing it, are thereby non-Catholics or heretics.

    The pride is also seen in labelling the Solemn Prayer to the Most Sacred Heart of Jesus to be "a bit careless". Careless? This is prescribed prayer of the Church, and contains neither error nor poison.

    The prayer does not promote a collective "Deicide guilt" as a personal guilt, but it reflects the rejection of the Jєωιѕн people due to their incredulity and disbelief and pertinacious statements of the Jєωιѕн mob in Jerusalem in 33 AD.



    Offline InstaurareEcclesiam

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    Joseph Augustine Di Noia: A Faulty Traditionalist Condemnation
    « Reply #2 on: July 11, 2012, 08:23:31 AM »
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  • Quote
    This is precisely why the decree of the Council of Florence, which Vennari joins other Traditionalists in constantly yet inexplicably citing, is so careful to say of pagans, Jєωs, heretics and schismatics not that they must convert to Catholicism or become juridical members of the Church to be saved, but only that they must at some point before death be “joined” to her


    The author is a Modernist and word-twister himself, perverted in his personality cult for Vatican II church and Conciliar JP2.

    The 'decree' is a solemn dogmatic definition, which states that neither Jєωs, nor pagans and heretics and schismatics will inherit eternal life if they are not joined to the Church prior to death.

    It does not say 'juridical' membership which is understood in the formalistic sense, but it DOES say supernatural membership which includes CONVERSION (implicit or explicit) to the Roman Catholic Church.

    So to state that 'Cantate Domino' (1442) of Pope Eugene IV and the Council of Florence (dogmatic ecuмenical Council) does not teach that non-Catholics must convert to the Catholic Church, is a GROTESQUE LIE.

    Joining the Church means converting to the Church, and this is what the dogma said and intended, as all commentaries prove.

    But neocon Conciliarists are not Roman Catholics, but doublespeak pseudo-Catholics, it seems.

    Offline InstaurareEcclesiam

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    Joseph Augustine Di Noia: A Faulty Traditionalist Condemnation
    « Reply #3 on: July 11, 2012, 08:28:35 AM »
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  • Apart from the disgusting lies of the author "Dr" Jeff, he lies and twists over and over:

    Quote
    Unfortunately, the word “convert” seems clearly intended to indicate a formal, conscious acceptance of the teachings of the Catholic Church and a formal, conscious submission to its authority. But it has never been Catholic doctrine that this is required for salvation and, in any case, this set of requirements would already rule out adherents of the SSPX, who manifestly refuse submission to the Church’s authority.


    The Catholic Church only allows for those in innocent ignorance (isolated peoples and islands, children under 7 years of age, mentally handicapped) to be saved - under strict conditions.

    For all who are conscious and in full mental capability, the obligation to join the Church before death (i.e. visibly) remains. This is a condition for salvation.

    The author cannot prove at all "this has never been Catholic doctrine" and his lies about "formal" acceptance. Of course the formality is not the question, it is the free will of the individual in consciousness who is obliged to accept the Catholic Faith and want to join the Church. This is necessary for salvation.

    This is Dogma.

    Offline InstaurareEcclesiam

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    Joseph Augustine Di Noia: A Faulty Traditionalist Condemnation
    « Reply #4 on: July 11, 2012, 08:35:05 AM »
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  • Quote
    In fact Vennari proceeds to hang himself with his own rope. He contrasts the attitude of Di Noia and the contemporary Magisterium with that of Pope Pius XI who, in a prayer consecrating the world to the Sacred Heart, referred to the Jєωs as “once Thy chosen people”. He seems not to realize that this very phrase is theologically unfortunate. At the very least, it is contrary to what St. Paul teaches, namely, that God’s election of the Jєωs is permanent. You’ll find this in Romans 11, which begins, “I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means!” (11:1) and goes on to emphasize that “the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable” (11:29).


    The tirade of Dr. Jeff lying Mirus is very cler.

    He is judging Pope Pius XI's officially promulgated prayer as "theologically unfortunate". And knows better by twisting the words of Saint Paul in the dispensationalist way of liars.

    God never rejected His people, as He grafted the believing non-Jєωs in the olive tree. But that does not mean that the branches broken off are still part of the tree or going to survive on their own or bring forth fruit. They will not. Branches without fruit, are thrown into the fire, as Our Lord teaches Himself.

    The gifts and call of God are now fulfilled and born by the Church, the new Israel grafted into the old olive tree as far as non-Jєωιѕн Christians are concerned.

    The "Dr" Mirus seems a bit of a Protestant and a typical Conciliar (neo-protestant) word twister, judging a "pre-conciliar" "non-contemporary" Pope Pius XI formulating a precise and accurate prayer.

    But of course that is "antisemitic" to do.

    And Dr. Mirus probably is better at exegesis of Sacred Scripture than the Holy Father in 1923 under assistance of the Holy Ghost?

    The split personality of neocon moderate modernist 'conservative' conciliar pseudo-Catholics like "Dr" Mirus is that they reject the notion of conflict and contradiction between pre- and post-conciliar 'magisterium', but they do write themselves about "contemporary magisterium" and the "modern papacy".

    Seems pretty clear to me, that there is a contradiction, discussion, opposition and conflict between these two.

    But Mirus wil probably deny this too, while affirming it in his words.