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Author Topic: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V  (Read 23356 times)

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Offline Catholic Knight

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Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
« Reply #150 on: August 18, 2023, 11:15:30 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on August 07, 2023, 10:57:42 AM
    Not really:

    The pope would be a declared heretic the moment he declared himself a heretic (i.e., simultaneously).

    In this day and age, don't be so certain about that.
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    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
    « Reply #151 on: August 18, 2023, 11:20:23 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on August 07, 2023, 11:16:50 AM
    The canon law on which you base your thesis doesn't say anything about heresy. It says that a public defection from the faith is required to lose an office. I don't recall that Francis or any of the conciliar popes as publicly stating or making an announcement to the whole Church that they were leaving the Catholic Church. That's what a "Public Defection" is, in the context of the canon law you cited.

    The Canon in question does NOT state public defection from the "Church".  It states public defection from the "Faith".  Stop making up your own interpretation.  Read it in the Latin:

    “Ob tacitam renuntiationem ab ipso iure admissam quaelibet officia vacant ipso facto et sine ulla declaratione, si clericus: A fide catholica publice defecerit.”

    Leaving the Catholic Church and/or joining a sect is a TYPE of pubic defection from the Faith.  Knowingly, consciously, and willingly publicly asserting a proposition that is in direct contradiction to a Church teaching that must be believed with Divine and Catholic Faith is another TYPE of public defection from the Faith.
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
    « Reply #152 on: August 18, 2023, 12:07:00 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 07, 2023, 10:05:13 AM
    The church is not a democracy.  It is not individualistic.  Catholics don’t decide things “on our own” or by way of “personal decisions.”


    Your question shows a lack of understanding of how a hierarchical organization works.  The closest organization that exists similar to the church would be the military.  If some General came out and said he was anti-America, the simple soldier on the ground does not have the authority to a) stop his mission, b) change his daily duties or c) lead an ιnѕυrrєcтισn against the bad general.  It’s above his pay-grade.  His opinion doesn’t matter.  What matters are his superiors and their orders for him. 

    So to answer your question:  whether I (personally) accept pope x as pope matters 0%.  Even if pope x claims heresy.  It doesn’t change my daily duties as a catholic nor do I have any authority to lead any kind of rebellion.  My duties are to God not a pope. I can educate others on the heresy and tell them to pray for the papacy (in general terms), but the persons responsible for fixing the issue are a) God and b) church officials.


    Wrong, your “duties” are to both God AND the pope. First to God and then to the pope who IS Gods representative on Earth. You have no right to flout any of his laws or disregard the obedience due to him unless he is asking you to do something that is MANIFESTLY sinful.
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
    « Reply #153 on: August 18, 2023, 01:06:43 PM »
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    Wrong, your “duties” are to both God AND the pope. First to God and then to the pope who IS Gods representative on Earth. You have no right to flout any of his laws or disregard the obedience due to him unless he is asking you to do something that is MANIFESTLY sinful.
    Not really.  Before the radio was invented, most Catholics had no interaction with the pope at all, for all of history.  Their main duty was to their local priest (most people have no interaction with their diocesan Bishop, either).  The parish priest was the conduit from Pope --> Bishop --> Parish Priest.
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    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
    « Reply #154 on: August 18, 2023, 01:15:38 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 18, 2023, 01:06:43 PM
    Not really.  Before the radio was invented, most Catholics had no interaction with the pope at all, for all of history.  Their main duty was to their local priest (most people have no interaction with their diocesan Bishop, either).  The parish priest was the conduit from Pope --> Bishop --> Parish Priest.

    What you say is not Catholic, Pax. See the bolded sections below.

    Catechism of Pius X

    50 Q. Who is the Pope?
    A. The Pope, who is also called the Sovereign Pontiff, or the Roman Pontiff, is the Successor of St. Peter in the See of Rome, the Vicar of Jesus Christ on earth, and the visible Head of the Church.

    51 Q. Why is the Roman Pontiff the Successor of St. Peter?
    A. The Roman Pontiff is the Successor of St. Peter because St. Peter united in his own person the dignity of Bishop of Rome and that of Head of the Church; by divine disposition he established his Seat at Rome, and there died; hence, whosoever is elected Bishop of Rome is also heir to all his authority.

    52 Q. Why is the Roman Pontiff the Vicar of Jesus Christ?
    A. The Roman Pontiff is the Vicar of Jesus Christ because He represents Him on earth and acts in His stead in the government of the Church.

    53 Q. Why is the Roman Pontiff the Visible Head of the Church?
    A. The Roman Pontiff is the Visible Head of the Church because he visibly governs her with the authority of Jesus Christ Himself, who is her invisible Head.

    54 Q. What, then, is the dignity of the Pope?
    A. The dignity of the Pope is the greatest of all dignities on earth, and gives him supreme and immediate power over all and each of the Pastors and of the faithful.

    55 Q. Can the Pope err when teaching the Church?
    A. The Pope cannot err, that is, he is infallible, in definitions regarding faith and morals.

    56 Q. How is it that the Pope is infallible?
    A. The Pope is infallible because of the promise of Jesus Christ, and of the unfailing assistance of the Holy Ghost.

    57 Q. When is the Pope infallible?
    A. The Pope is infallible when, as Pastor and Teacher of all Christians and in virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine regarding faith or morals to be held by all the Church.

    58 Q. What sin would a man commit who should refuse to accept the solemn definitions of the Pope?
    A. He who refuses to accept the solemn definitions of the Pope, or who even doubts them, sins against faith; and should he remain obstinate in this unbelief, he would no longer be a Catholic, but a heretic.

    59 Q.Why has God granted to the Pope the gift of infallibility?
    A. God has granted the Pope the gift of infallibility in order that we all may be sure and certain of the truths which the Church teaches.

    60 Q. When was it defined that the Pope is infallible?
    A.That the Pope is infallible was defined by the Church in the [First] Vatican Council; and should anyone presume to contradict this definition he would be a heretic and excommunicated.

    61 Q. In defining that the Pope is infallible, has the Church put forward a new truth of faith?
    A.No, in defining that the Pope is infallible the Church has not put forward a new truth of faith; but to oppose new errors she has simply defined that the infallibility of the Pope, already contained in Sacred Scripture and in Tradition, is a truth revealed by God, and therefore to be believed as a dogma or article of faith.

    62 Q.How should every Catholic act towards the Pope?
    A.Every Catholic must acknowledge the Pope as Father, Pastor, and Universal Teacher, and be united with him in mind and heart.

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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
    « Reply #155 on: August 18, 2023, 01:19:46 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 18, 2023, 01:06:43 PM
    Not really.  Before the radio was invented, most Catholics had no interaction with the pope at all, for all of history.  Their main duty was to their local priest (most people have no interaction with their diocesan Bishop, either).  The parish priest was the conduit from Pope --> Bishop --> Parish Priest.

    Please! Do you really buy what you just wrote? How does that remotely support your contention that you don’t have “duties” to the pope? No real Catholic would nor could believe such a thing. I suggest you rethink this blatantly unorthodox position.
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Bellator Dei

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    Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
    « Reply #156 on: August 18, 2023, 01:54:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on August 18, 2023, 01:19:46 PM
    Please! Do you really buy what you just wrote? How does that remotely support your contention that you don’t have “duties” to the pope? No real Catholic would nor could believe such a thing. I suggest you rethink this blatantly unorthodox position.

    Well said... 
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    Please pray for all of the holy souls in purgatory.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
    « Reply #157 on: August 18, 2023, 02:01:19 PM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on August 18, 2023, 12:07:00 PM

    Wrong, your “duties” are to both God AND the pope. First to God and then to the pope who IS Gods representative on Earth. You have no right to flout any of his laws or disregard the obedience due to him unless he is asking you to do something that is MANIFESTLY sinful.

    What Pope do you obey, then? If our duty is to God AND the Pope, then surely there is a Pope somewhere that you obey. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
    « Reply #158 on: August 18, 2023, 02:20:12 PM »
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    • Edit: Didn't read discussion carefully.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
    « Reply #159 on: August 18, 2023, 02:22:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marulus Fidelis on August 18, 2023, 02:20:12 PM
    Edit: Didn't read discussion carefully.

    What Pope do you obey? It is absolutely imperative that ALL Catholics submit to the Pope, correct? Why should you be off the hook? 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
    « Reply #160 on: August 18, 2023, 03:33:18 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on August 18, 2023, 02:01:19 PM
    What Pope do you obey, then? If our duty is to God AND the Pope, then surely there is a Pope somewhere that you obey.

    If there is no visible pope then there is no pope that I can give my obedience to. Now, can you provide me with the name of the pope you obey?
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
    « Reply #161 on: August 18, 2023, 03:35:21 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on August 18, 2023, 02:22:50 PM
    What Pope do you obey? It is absolutely imperative that ALL Catholics submit to the Pope, correct? Why should you be off the hook?

    So, do you submit to Bergoglio?
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
    « Reply #162 on: August 18, 2023, 03:37:55 PM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on August 18, 2023, 03:33:18 PM
    If there is no visible pope then there is no pope that I can give my obedience to. Now, can you provide me with the name of the pope you obey?

    Well that's convenient for you, isn't it? 

    Since all Catholics must obey the Pope, then it's imperative that you elect one, so that you have someone to obey, since you go on so about us having to obey "our" pope.

    I think it's required that you have "your" pope. You can elect anyone. How about someone at your chapel? Or maybe a family member? Then you can obey him in EVERYTHING but sin, just like you tell us that we have to do. Doesn't that sound fair?
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
    « Reply #163 on: August 18, 2023, 03:51:31 PM »
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    Please! Do you really buy what you just wrote? How does that remotely support your contention that you don’t have “duties” to the pope? No real Catholic would nor could believe such a thing. I suggest you rethink this blatantly unorthodox position.
    It depends how you define duties.  

    Are catholics required to pilgrimage to rome and pay homage to the pope, like the muslims at mecca?  No.
    Are we required to do anything to him on a personal level?  Send Christmas cards?  Have a photo of him in our house?  Know his middle name and family history?  No, no and no. 

    I suppose the only "duty" I could come up with is to pray for the pope...but that's not really a duty, but part of the Faith.  It's part of many novenas, and the mass.

    Could a catholic grow up in some poor country, and live his life only going to the dirt-floor church down the road, never leaving his tiny little village, without ever knowing the pope's title or anything about him?  Yes.

    So, if such a person could save their soul, what "duty" did they fulfill?
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    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
    « Reply #164 on: August 18, 2023, 03:53:21 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on August 18, 2023, 03:37:55 PM
    Well that's convenient for you, isn't it?

    Since all Catholics must obey the Pope, then it's imperative that you elect one, so that you have someone to obey, since you go on so about us having to obey "our" pope.

    I think it's required that you have "your" pope. You can elect anyone. How about someone at your chapel? Or maybe a family member? Then you can obey him in EVERYTHING but sin, just like you tell us that we have to do. Doesn't that sound fair?

    Meg, read below the description of your Pope. And consider that last point about those that will be judged? Why will they be judged? Because they have "consented to iniquity." They will not need to actually commit the sin themselves. It will be enough for them to "consent" to the sin of "that wicked one." Do you think that by calling him "the Holy Father" you might be "consenting" to what he is doing?


     8 And then that wicked one shall be revealed whom the Lord Jesus shall kill with the spirit of his mouth; and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming, him,
    Et tunc revelabitur ille iniquus, quem Dominus Jesus interficiet spiritu oris sui, et destruet illustratione adventus sui eum :
     9 Whose coming is according to the working of Satan, in all power, and signs, and lying wonders,
    cujus est adventus secundum operationem Satanae in omni virtute, et signis, et prodigiis mendacibus,
     10 And in all seduction of iniquity to them that perish; because they receive not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying:
    et in omni seductione iniquitatis iis qui pereunt : eo quod caritatem veritatis non receperunt ut salvi fierent. Ideo mittet illis Deus operationem erroris ut credant mendacio,
     11 That all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity.
    ut judicentur omnes qui non crediderunt veritati, sed consenserunt iniquitati.

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