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Author Topic: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V  (Read 23361 times)

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Offline Catholic Knight

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Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
« Reply #120 on: July 23, 2023, 04:07:51 PM »
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  • :facepalm:  Only the church has the authority to investigate and decide if the evidence is sufficient. 


    The church is a monarchy with a hierarchical authority.  It is not a democracy nor does it allow (nor has it ever allowed) the kind of Protestant-grassroots-individualistic-decision-making which you describe. 

    Nobody cares what you investigate, how you interpret canon law, what your conclusions are, nor any opinion you have on ANYTHING related to Catholicism.  Your opinion matters 0%.  If you think it does, you’re well on your way to following Martin Luther.

    If Jorge Bergoglio publicly admitted that he is a heretic and none of the cardinals or bishops did anything about it, would you still consider him to be pope?

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
    « Reply #121 on: July 23, 2023, 04:49:58 PM »
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  • Does the 1917 Code of Canon Law define what constitutes a public defection from the Catholic Faith? I can't find that it does. But there needs to be an authentic interpretation of what constitutes a public defection from the Catholic Faith.

    1917-code-of-canon-law-english.pdf (restorethe54.com)


    Is holding publicly and pertinaciously to one heresy not sufficient?


    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
    « Reply #122 on: July 23, 2023, 05:39:20 PM »
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  • Can confirm that since abandoning Lefebvrism my debates with non-Catholics were much more effective. People would always point to Francis and I'd sound delusional explaining how it doesn't matter what he does. The funny thing is I was never comfortable with that part but now it's clear as day to me.

    Attended a Rosary rally in Boston where our group was being constantly harangued and heckled by protestants with loudspeakers.  One prot boomer targeted me as we were praying.
     
    Although I would not engage him, he came in close and wanted me to defend Bergolio's public announcement of cancelling Hell.      The conversation did not last long, but I think I satisfied him.

    I told him: "Bergolio is a Jєω".  He said "Oh!... okay" and walked away.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
    « Reply #123 on: July 23, 2023, 06:13:14 PM »
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  • Is holding publicly and pertinaciously to one heresy not sufficient?

    No, it is not. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
    « Reply #124 on: July 23, 2023, 06:17:46 PM »
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  • Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
    « Reply #125 on: July 23, 2023, 10:46:36 PM »
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  • Both Pope St Pius X and Pius XII changed parts of the "cuм Ex" law to allow excommunicated individuals to both elect and be elected pope.  So, to some degree, "cuм Ex" is old news...

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
    « Reply #126 on: July 24, 2023, 12:39:43 AM »
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  • If it weren't so sad, it would be hilarious that people believe heretics couldn't be popes for 400 years but the Holy Ghost decided to let non-Catholics have authority over Catholics so that they could then reject that authority.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
    « Reply #127 on: July 24, 2023, 07:57:29 AM »
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  • 1.  Are you really calling a decision by Pope St Pius X "sad"?
    2.  Have you ever read his changes?  It doesn't sound like you have.
    3.  Do you not understand that changes to conclave (i.e. human law) have nothing to do with infallibility?

    Ultimately, the conclave changes made allow an excommunicated cardinal (i.e. which is not the same thing as a non-catholic) to vote and be elected...but...immediately after the conclave, all excommunications, sanctions, etc are re-enforced.

    If anyone knew of the dangers of Modernism, and how much rome was infiltrated (already!) in the early 1900s, it was Pope St Pius X.  So, in his papal wisdom, he foresaw that it was VERY probable that future "popes" would be heretics, excommuncated, etc because the infiltration and corruption was so deep.  Thus, it seems he decided that if he could not prevent heretics from gaining office, at least he would (by the conclave changes) allow that the temporal/govt/visible part of the papacy be legit...and so the papacy could continue in some aspect (even if not fully).  We all know the spiritual aspect of the papacy is not legit, as these people have no true spiritual authority.

    This lines up 100% with Sede-privationism, Fr Chazal's impoundism, and other hybrid theories.  Don't you see the wisdom in this?


    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
    « Reply #128 on: August 06, 2023, 03:26:09 PM »
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  • No, it is not.

    Really?  How many does it take?

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
    « Reply #129 on: August 06, 2023, 03:32:01 PM »
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  • Both Pope St Pius X and Pius XII changed parts of the "cuм Ex" law to allow excommunicated individuals to both elect and be elected pope.  So, to some degree, "cuм Ex" is old news...

    If the individuals in question were excommunicated for reasons other than heresy, apostasy, or schism, then that is fine.  However, for the public sins of heresy, apostasy, or schism, no pope has the authority allow such individuals to be papal candidates because these sins by their very nature separate the culprits from the Church.   

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
    « Reply #130 on: August 06, 2023, 03:41:16 PM »
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  • If Jorge Bergoglio publicly admitted that he is a heretic and none of the cardinals or bishops did anything about it, would you still consider him to be pope?

    Pax Vobis, you continue dodging this question.  And I have a hunch as to why.  Whether you answer "yes" or "no", you'll hang yourself.  If you answer "yes", then you would be indirectly denying the Magisterium of Pope Pius XII.  If you answer "no", then all the arguing you have been doing against my position will go out the window. 

    I will give you one more chance to prove me wrong:

    If Jorge Bergoglio publicly admitted that he is a heretic and none of the cardinals or bishops did anything about it, would you still consider him to be pope?


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
    « Reply #131 on: August 06, 2023, 05:21:11 PM »
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  • Really?  How many does it take?

    It is not a question of "How many does it take," but it's a matter of your private interpretation of that particular code of canon law. 

    Why should we take your interpretation as a fact that we must all adhere to, as if you are a pope yourself? 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
    « Reply #132 on: August 06, 2023, 05:50:57 PM »
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  • If Jorge Bergoglio publicly admitted that he is a heretic and none of the cardinals or bishops did anything about it, would you still consider him to be pope?

    No.

    In that case, a declaration by the Church of the fact of heresy would seem unnecessary:

    The purpose of the declaration by the cardinals is to announce the fact of the pope’s heresy.  Therefore, he’d basically be doing that for them. 

    At that point, either St. Bellarmine would kick in (ie., deposition by God from the moment of the declaration), or, per Cajetan/JST et al, the deposition would occur at the moment of the second declaration (ie., of his deposition).

    Either way, the only question would be the timing of the deposition (between the 1st and 2nd declaration), sede vacante either being the case, or an imminent inevitability.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
    « Reply #133 on: August 06, 2023, 07:48:51 PM »
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  • Sean’s answer sounds reasonable.  Either way, at that point, church officials would act in some manner, so my opinion would be irrelevant.  That’s why I haven’t answered the question… because my opinion is irrelevant.  

    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
    « Reply #134 on: August 06, 2023, 08:46:38 PM »
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  • What have the last how many pages to do with Frs. Hewko and Ruiz or their “Statement?”  :fryingpan: