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Author Topic: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V  (Read 28965 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
« Reply #110 on: July 20, 2023, 08:25:23 AM »
Quote from: NIFH on July 19, 2023, 09:39:47 PM
The only practical solution to the crisis is the Consecration of Russia.  But how will people have the motivation to ask the pope for it, if they are tricked into believing we don't even have a pope?  The Devil has many such strategies to delay the Consecration.

Nobody's "tricked" into believing we don't have a pope, as that is in fact the truth.  You are the one who's been "tricked into" having become some flavor of Old Catholic.  As for not having a Pope, it's better to have no Pope than these destroyers.  You have no faith whatsoever in the Catholic Church and the guidance of the Holy Spirit over the Church.

Regardless of whether you're an SV or R&R, this situation is beyond human resolution.  When the time comes, God will fix everything, pope or no pope.  You pretend as though God can't remedy the "no pope" situation?
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Offline Meg

Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
« Reply #111 on: July 20, 2023, 08:29:34 AM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on July 20, 2023, 08:20:20 AM
Well, the problem I have is with some modern R&R distorting and misrepresenting Archbishop Lefebvre's position, which I have no issues with.

He affirms the Catholic truth that the Papacy is guided by the Holy Spirit that that this degree of destruction caused by the Pope is not possible.  He says to sedevacantists in one speech, "I agree with you there."  He then states that SVism is one possible answer.  He's never ruled out SVism as a possibility, but simply felt he didn't have the degree of certainty required to formally come out as an SV.

So Archbishop Lefebvre never denied the MAJOR of the SV position.  He simply felt that there could be some unknown factor that could account for what's going on.  He went through some possibilities, such as that the V2 papal claimants were being blackmailed, or drugged, or whatever.  He said that those were not very likely, but he didn't have the certainty of faith to rule them out and conclude they weren't legitimate popes.

Modern R&R, however, claim that legitimate Popes can corrupt the Church ... and then try to pretend that +Lefebvre supported their position. He did not, except possibly for a span of time between 1980 - 1984 or so.  But before then and after then, he remained very open to SVism being correct, but just wanted to defer to the Church's authority to definitely resolve the question.

Well, the problem I see with Pro Vobis stance, is that +ABL did not discuss the "Magisterium," or whether or not is it or is not corruptible. As far as I know, it just wasn't a part of Tradition for him.

It seems to me that this issue is relatively new, and I'm not sure who invented it, maybe it was Fr. Fenton, or Fr. Cekada, or Des Lauriers. Or none of them. The term "Magisterium" is also used by advocates of VII. I know, because I used to argue with them on the old Catholic Answers forum. For them, the Church is built on Scripture, Tradition, and "the Magisterium."

The whole issue or subject of "the Magisterium" seems like a novelty to me, and +ABL wasn't really into novelties, for the most part (the BoD issue aside).
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Offline NIFH

Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
« Reply #112 on: July 20, 2023, 07:05:54 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on July 20, 2023, 08:20:20 AM
He affirms the Catholic truth that the Papacy is guided by the Holy Spirit that that this degree of destruction caused by the Pope is not possible.  He says to sedevacantists in one speech, "I agree with you there."
So Archbishop Lefebvre never denied the MAJOR of the SV position.  He simply felt that there could be some unknown factor that could account for what's going on.  He went through some possibilities, such as that the V2 papal claimants were being blackmailed, or drugged, or whatever.  He said that those were not very likely, but he didn't have the certainty of faith to rule them out and conclude they weren't legitimate popes.
+Lefebvre gave zero possibility to the theories of the pope being blackmailed, drugged, etc.  In the speech you refer to, he did indeed agree that this degree of destruction could not possibly be caused by a pope.  He then gives possibility to the theories of the pope losing his office because of formal heresy known only to a few, or because of automatic excommunication for Masonic membership, again known only to a few.

In the very same calendar year (1976), however, he spoke on the topic again, and no longer affirmed that the pope was incapable of causing such destruction.  Remember that he was almost completely alone, and at this early point in the crisis was feeling around in the dark.  Just as it took time for him to realize the unacceptability of the '65 and '67 Missals, these theological questions took a few years to research and understand.  As you say, these small adjustments of view are a refreshing mark of honesty and humility.
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Offline NIFH

Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
« Reply #113 on: July 20, 2023, 07:16:04 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on July 20, 2023, 08:25:23 AM
As for not having a Pope, it's better to have no Pope than these destroyers.  You have no faith whatsoever in the Catholic Church and the guidance of the Holy Spirit over the Church.
It may be better, but that has no bearing on whether it is true.

The Holy Ghost will protect the Church from complete destruction.  He will also not allow Church Magisterium to be corrupted, no matter how much garbage comes from the Pope's mouth or pen.  He will never abandon any soul, unless a soul abandons Him first.
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Offline NIFH

Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
« Reply #114 on: July 20, 2023, 07:27:23 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on July 20, 2023, 08:25:23 AM
Regardless of whether you're an SV or R&R, this situation is beyond human resolution.
As St. Ignatius says:  pray as though everything depends on God, and work as though everything depends on you.  God will fix this situation through His Blessed Mother, but He expects us to do our little bit.  He has made it clear that the Consecration of Russia is what He wants us to pray, sacrifice and work for.  It comes from the heresy of Quietism to adopt the defeatist attitude of 'we can do nothing.'
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