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Author Topic: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V  (Read 23366 times)

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Offline Meg

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Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
« Reply #45 on: July 12, 2023, 10:17:00 AM »
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    • Quote from: Catholic Knight on July 12, 2023, 10:09:34 AM
    Where did I write that I remove them from office?

    You say that they remove themselves, But that's not true. You have removed them. You have no authority to do that.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline poenitens

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    Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
    « Reply #46 on: July 12, 2023, 10:30:08 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 11, 2023, 03:01:08 PM
    #2 is less tiresome and more productive for both you (learn more church history) and the protestant.  Doctrine is a much higher reference point and a more solid foundation for debating than a (so called conspiracy) theory about pope x, y or z wasn't pope.  In the end, even if you could prove 100% that pope x wasn't a pope, you still have to explain doctrine vs current errors so the person could learn the Faith.
    Thanks!
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    ¡Viva Jesús!

    Please, disregard any opinions and references that I have posted that may seem favorable to any traditionalist group, especially those that pertinaciously deny EENS (CMRI, Sanborn, Dolan and associates, for example).

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
    « Reply #47 on: July 12, 2023, 10:43:34 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on July 12, 2023, 10:17:00 AM
    You say that they remove themselves, But that's not true. You have removed them. You have no authority to do that.

    They are removed by the law itself by tacit resignation.  That's what the law states.  I have not removed anybody.  I simply apply the law to a case. 

    “Any office becomes vacant upon the fact and without any declaration by tacit resignation recognized by the law itself if a cleric: Publicly defects from the Catholic faith.”
    (1917 Code of Canon Law, Canon 188.4º)
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
    « Reply #48 on: July 12, 2023, 11:10:45 AM »
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    • Quote
    The public sin of manifest formal heresy is a kind of public defection from the Catholic Faith.  

    That's debatable. 


    Quote
    Canon 188.4 speaks about the FACT of public defection and not the judgment of the Church for the loss of office to take place.
    :facepalm:  

    Person A says, (something heretical).
    Person B says "Yeah, Person A publicly defected".  
    Person A says "No I didn't.  I'm still Catholic."  
    Person C says, "What Person A said wasn't catholic but I don't think he meant to defect."
    Catholic Knight says "We can all privately judge what Person A did."

    Result - Protestant style, individualistic-minded chaos.

    Quote
    Once again, this goes back to your claim that one cannot judge the sin of heresy, for which claim you have refused to provide evidence.
    :confused:  The default position is this:


    MAJOR - Canon law (i.e. Church Law) can only be administered/judged by Church authorities.
    MINOR - Simple Priests and the Laity are not part of Church authority.
    CONCLUSION - Simple Priests and the Laity cannot administer/judge using Canon Law.

    You are the one that has to prove any catholic individual can judge heresy.  The default position is a big, fat "No, you cannot."  This applies to any court room, in any country, all across the globe.  If you are not a lawyer, or trained in law, or a judge, you cannot take part in the legal process.
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    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
    « Reply #49 on: July 12, 2023, 11:24:19 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 12, 2023, 11:10:45 AM
    That's debatable. 

    :facepalm: 

    Person A says, (something heretical).
    Person B says "Yeah, Person A publicly defected". 
    Person A says "No I didn't.  I'm still Catholic." 
    Person C says, "What Person A said wasn't catholic but I don't think he meant to defect."
    Catholic Knight says "We can all privately judge what Person A did."

    Result - Protestant style, individualistic-minded chaos.
    :confused:  The default position is this:


    MAJOR - Canon law (i.e. Church Law) can only be administered/judged by Church authorities.
    MINOR - Simple Priests and the Laity are not part of Church authority.
    CONCLUSION - Simple Priests and the Laity cannot administer/judge using Canon Law.

    You are the one that has to prove any catholic individual can judge heresy.  The default position is a big, fat "No, you cannot."  This applies to any court room, in any country, all across the globe.  If you are not a lawyer, or trained in law, or a judge, you cannot take part in the legal process.

    The tacit resignation of office takes place automatically based upon the fact of public defection.  That is what the law states.  Anyone can judge it if the evidence is sufficient.  If you don't agree with this, then YOU are opposing the Magisterium of the Church in her Canon Law and making Canon 188.4 on this point futile.  The thing that is left to the competent authority is the ENFORCEMENT of this Canon and the effective removal of office.  However, anyone can refuse to acknowledge his office from the moment of public defection.  
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
    « Reply #50 on: July 12, 2023, 12:23:06 PM »
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    • Quote from: Catholic Knight on July 12, 2023, 11:24:19 AM
    However, anyone can refuse to acknowledge his office from the moment of public defection. 

    Do you believe that we are all obligated to acknowledge the loss of office, and if we don't acknowledge this, do you consider us heretics?
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline OABrownson1876

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    Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
    « Reply #51 on: July 12, 2023, 12:29:18 PM »
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    • When I meet a new traditional priest I say, "Fr., the New Mass is a mortal sin and there is absolutely no salvation outside the Church, what other questions do you have for me?"  Outside of this, there should not be any other questions.  I could see if some guy is handing out Natural Family Planning literature (birth control) at the local Trad chapel, then yes, the priest might kick him out, but for the most part all these other issues are a distraction.  

    Even our Trad seminaries do not always focus on the foundational literature.  When I was at St. Thomas Aquinas ('94-97) we should have read The Great Sacrilege, which was the first serious critique of the New Mass.  I think the attitude- if I might critique the minds in control at the time, was probably- "Fr. Wathen is a Feeneyite, so therefore we cannot read his book The Great Sacrilege."  
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
    « Reply #52 on: July 12, 2023, 12:35:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: Catholic Knight on July 12, 2023, 11:24:19 AM
    The tacit resignation of office takes place automatically based upon the fact of public defection.  That is what the law states.  Anyone can judge it if the evidence is sufficient.  If you don't agree with this, then YOU are opposing the Magisterium of the Church in her Canon Law and making Canon 188.4 on this point futile.  The thing that is left to the competent authority is the ENFORCEMENT of this Canon and the effective removal of office.  However, anyone can refuse to acknowledge his office from the moment of public defection. 

    Firstly, what was the public defection?

    Sounds to me like you're using private interpretation to construe facts to imply public defection, so as to argue a tacit resignation.

    Pretty thin.

    If I just concentrate on the bolded words (private interpretation, construe, imply, tacit), it all sounds like it is based upon a lot of flim-flam to reach the conclusion you desired.
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
    « Reply #53 on: July 12, 2023, 12:41:59 PM »
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    • Quote
    The tacit resignation of office takes place automatically based upon the fact of public defection.
    :jester:  Church authorities are the only ones who can decide 'public defection'.


    Quote
    That is what the law states. 
    Unless you're a canon lawyer, your opinion means nothing.


    Quote
    Anyone can judge it if the evidence is sufficient.
    Sure, but your "judgment" is meaningless and is protestant-thinking.


    Quote
    If you don't agree with this, then YOU are opposing the Magisterium of the Church in her Canon Law and making Canon 188.4 on this point futile
    Until the Magisterium/church officials decide on the matter, and apply canon 188.4 to a particular case/person, then i'm not opposing anything.  I can't oppose a judgement which hasn't taken place.  ??

    You are "privately interpreting" canon law just like protestants "privately interpret" Scripture.  The Church decides and teaches, in both cases.
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    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
    « Reply #54 on: July 12, 2023, 12:42:21 PM »
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    • Quote from: Seraphina on July 11, 2023, 09:38:14 PM
     For myself, I’ve never once heard him [Bishop Williamson] speak of modern Eucharistic miracles or actually promote the novus ordo. What he HAS said is that he hasn’t the authority to declare the novus ordo dogmatically invalid. 

    Here is the video where Bishop Williamson defends the validity of the Novus Ordo Eucharist based on supposed Novus Ordo Eucharistic Miracles:

    https://youtu.be/casxXTtQFPs?t=5399

    Listen at the precise timestamp provided in the link above. You will hear Williamson's defense of these Novus Ordo "Eucharistic miracles." 

    He discusses the example of the "miracle" at Sokolka, Poland. But, you need to understand, the most famous Novus Ordo Eucharistic Miracle was from Buenos Aires. Can you guess which Bishop approved the miracle of Buenos Aires? Yes, Bergoglio.

    https://media.ascensionpress.com/2019/08/07/the-eucharistic-miracle-overseen-by-archbishop-bergoglio-pope-francis/

    This tells me that the whole Novus Ordo Eucharistic Miracle thing is a planned deception. There is no way that Jorge Bergoglio actually believes in Eucharistic Miracles. Bergoglio is a deceiver. 
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
    « Reply #55 on: July 12, 2023, 12:48:10 PM »
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    • Quote from: Angelus on July 12, 2023, 12:42:21 PM
    Here is the video where Bishop Williamson defends the validity of the Novus Ordo Eucharist based on supposed Novus Ordo Eucharistic Miracles:

    https://youtu.be/casxXTtQFPs?t=5399

    Listen at the precise timestamp provided in the link above. You will hear Williamson's defense of these Novus Ordo "Eucharistic miracles."

    He discusses the example of the "miracle" at Sokolka, Poland. But, you need to understand, the most famous Novus Ordo Eucharistic Miracle was from Buenos Aires. Can you guess which Bishop approved the miracle of Buenos Aires? Yes, Bergoglio.

    https://media.ascensionpress.com/2019/08/07/the-eucharistic-miracle-overseen-by-archbishop-bergoglio-pope-francis/

    This tells me that the whole Novus Ordo Eucharistic Miracle thing is a planned deception. There is no way that Jorge Bergoglio actually believes in Eucharistic Miracles. Bergoglio is a deceiver.

    Does Bp. Williamson talk about, and/or approve, the so-called eucharistic miracle from Buenos Aires? I don't recall him talking about that one.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
    « Reply #56 on: July 12, 2023, 01:06:00 PM »
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    • Quote from: Seraphina on July 11, 2023, 09:38:14 PM
     For myself, I’ve never once heard him speak of modern Eucharistic miracles or actually promote the novus ordo. What he HAS said is that he hasn’t the authority to declare the novus ordo dogmatically invalid. He has also said he does NOT recommend attending it, but acknowledges there are likely still older people who attend and still have the Faith, also, that some novus ordo priests are on their spiritual journeys, en route to becoming fully traditional.  

    Here is what Bishop Williamson says, in his own words, about attending the Novus Ordo:

    https://youtu.be/casxXTtQFPs?t=5761

    At the timestamp provided above, Bishop Williamson is telling a young traditional Catholic that HE should not rule out attending the Novus Ordo. He says, "you don't have to stay absolutely away [from the Novus Ordo]." 
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    Offline BrianA

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    Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
    « Reply #57 on: July 12, 2023, 03:42:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on July 11, 2023, 08:36:14 AM
    So the only reason they're doubtful is due to "the intentions of the ministers"?  Does this mean it's possible that they'd align with a Novus Ordo priest (without conditional ordination) if it was determined that he was ordained in the New Rite by someone who clearly had the proper intention to ordain, such as a Bishop Schneider, for instance?
    Yes. That's what they got taught at the SSPX.

    The Council of Narnia says that if the minister doesn't have a serious look on his face then we should doubt the interior intention of the minister. Since everyone now smiles for pictures after the "sacraments," we now have to determine the look on the minister's face at the moment he said the form to know if it was valid or not. I think this is seminary 202 at the SSPX. It's all about the serious look... That's how we know the interior intention of the minister.  /S
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    Offline poenitens

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    Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
    « Reply #58 on: July 12, 2023, 06:00:55 PM »
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    • Quote from: BrianA on July 12, 2023, 03:42:24 PM
    Yes. That's what they got taught at the SSPX.

    The Council of Narnia says that if the minister doesn't have a serious look on his face then we should doubt the interior intention of the minister. Since everyone now smiles for pictures after the "sacraments," we now have to determine the look on the minister's face at the moment he said the form to know if it was valid or not. I think this is seminary 202 at the SSPX. It's all about the serious look... That's how we know the interior intention of the minister.  /S
    :laugh2:

    I think the same thing, lol
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    ¡Viva Jesús!

    Please, disregard any opinions and references that I have posted that may seem favorable to any traditionalist group, especially those that pertinaciously deny EENS (CMRI, Sanborn, Dolan and associates, for example).

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
    « Reply #59 on: July 12, 2023, 06:11:26 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 12, 2023, 12:41:59 PM
    :jester:  Church authorities are the only ones who can decide 'public defection'.

    Unless you're a canon lawyer, your opinion means nothing.

    Sure, but your "judgment" is meaningless and is protestant-thinking.

    Until the Magisterium/church officials decide on the matter, and apply canon 188.4 to a particular case/person, then i'm not opposing anything.  I can't oppose a judgement which hasn't taken place.  ??

    You are "privately interpreting" canon law just like protestants "privately interpret" Scripture.  The Church decides and teaches, in both cases.
    Any office becomes vacant upon the fact and without any declaration by tacit resignation
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