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Author Topic: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V  (Read 28939 times)

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Offline Catholic Knight

Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
« Reply #70 on: July 16, 2023, 03:41:21 PM »
Quote from: Meg on July 12, 2023, 12:23:06 PM
Do you believe that we are all obligated to acknowledge the loss of office, and if we don't acknowledge this, do you consider us heretics?

Because the current situation regarding Jorge Bergoglio is such a serious matter (i.e., a matter of potential schism), you are morally obligated to investigate.  If the evidence of public defection is sufficient, then you are morally obligated to acknowledge the loss of office.

Heresy, at least material, comes into play if you deny that the public sin of manifest formal heresy per se separates the heretic from the Church.   
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Offline Meg

Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
« Reply #71 on: July 16, 2023, 04:07:42 PM »
Quote from: Catholic Knight on July 16, 2023, 03:41:21 PM
Because the current situation regarding Jorge Bergoglio is such a serious matter (i.e., a matter of potential schism), you are morally obligated to investigate.  If the evidence of public defection is sufficient, then you are morally obligated to acknowledge the loss of office.

Heresy, at least material, comes into play if you deny that the public sin of manifest formal heresy per se separates the heretic from the Church. 

Yes, we are obligated to investigate, but we are not morally obligated to take your opinion on the matter.

We already have investigated the issue. It's not like the Crisis is something new for many of us, though maybe it's new for you. 

The problem with sedevacantism is the arrogance factor. The arrogance of many sedevacantists mirrors the arrogance of the Modernists. They are like two sides of the same coin. Not that I fault anyone for taking the sede position. It's the sede occupation of trying to force others to their POV that bothers me. 
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Online Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
« Reply #72 on: July 16, 2023, 07:39:49 PM »

Quote
If the evidence of public defection is sufficient
:facepalm:  Only the church has the authority to investigate and decide if the evidence is sufficient.  


The church is a monarchy with a hierarchical authority.  It is not a democracy nor does it allow (nor has it ever allowed) the kind of Protestant-grassroots-individualistic-decision-making which you describe.  

Nobody cares what you investigate, how you interpret canon law, what your conclusions are, nor any opinion you have on ANYTHING related to Catholicism.  Your opinion matters 0%.  If you think it does, you’re well on your way to following Martin Luther. 
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Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
« Reply #73 on: July 16, 2023, 08:43:55 PM »
This is really a waste of time.  Bellarmine vs. Cajetan will not be decided by us on this forum.  What we do know is that the Holy Spirit protects the papacy from doing this kind of serious damage to the Church, so either they're not popes (for whatever reason) or they're being blackmailed or otherwise forced to act without necessary freedom.  I personally hold to the Siri theory.  Bottom line, however, is that they cannot be legitimate Popes acting freely.  That's contrary to the indefectibility of the Church.
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Offline NIFH

Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
« Reply #74 on: July 16, 2023, 10:09:24 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on July 16, 2023, 08:43:55 PM
What we do know is that the Holy Spirit protects the papacy from doing this kind of serious damage to the Church.  Bottom line, however, is that they cannot be legitimate Popes acting freely.  That's contrary to the indefectibility of the Church.
What is the nature of the Holy Ghost's guidance of the Papacy?  There are distinctions.

The pope is infallibly prevented from making an error when pronouncing a dogma 'ex cathedra'.  In no other circuмstance is the pope infallible.  Neither in personal morals, nor in sermons, speeches and letters.

Surely the Holy Ghost offers graces of state to the pope, but where is the doctrine that the pope cannot refuse these graces?

If these recent popes were pronouncing their errors as dogma, then we would have our proof.  Note that they consistently refrain from doing this.  Only John Paul II spoke 'ex cathedra', once (and even that can be argued!), to pronounce that no woman could ever be a priest.

We have no proof.  We must behave according to the presumption that they are valid popes.  Presumption!--not certainty.
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