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Author Topic: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V  (Read 28873 times)

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Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2023, 10:10:32 AM »
In the midst of the tragedy of the ever-increasing splintered Traditionalism movement, the historian in me finds it fascinating that we are witnessing, in real time, the re-creation of how protestantism became so splintered in such a short period.  That's the only positive I can find in the present day.

Sure, there was bickering and debate in the 70s and 80s between the various Trad clerics (same as today) but they didn't have the resources/$ to properly split off from everyone and force the laity to choose.  Such priests also still found a balance between serving the faithful and debating theology.  They still knew and acted as if mass/sacraments > debate. 

Unfortunately, now that clerics can easily find/fund any kind of building to turn into a chapel, there is no impediment to them achieving the logical conclusion of their never-ending "lines in the sand" and personal, theological, isolationist daydreams.  Instead of having any kind of prudence, or discretion or moderation - the typical Trad cleric who's "in charge" of something becomes a mini-pope, a mini-hierarchy, with dreams of "saving the church" in their own way.  :facepalm:  Childish insanity.
What an absolute nightmare we live in.

Every once in a while, I speak to some protestant and try to convince him of the Truth of the Catholic Faith but some of my arguments against protestantism hinge precisely on issues that today affect the Church.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2023, 12:51:51 PM »
What an absolute nightmare we live in.

Every once in a while, I speak to some protestant and try to convince him of the Truth of the Catholic Faith but some of my arguments against protestantism hinge precisely on issues that today affect the Church.

I get that as well.  Traditionally, Catholic apologetics entails demonstrating the claims of the Church to be the authentic and true Church founded by Christ and a reliable guardian of Catholic doctrine.  Yet we have Jorge and the problem of V2.  Really, the only approach is to bluntly tell them that the Church has been infiltrated since 1958 and these men are not popes.  Unfortunately Vatican II and the V2 Papal Imposters discredit the Church and the Church's claims, and in fact validate Eastern Orthodoxy and/or Old Catholicism ... if you grant that these men are real popes.  That is yet another reason why SVism is the way to go.


Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
« Reply #27 on: July 11, 2023, 01:37:53 PM »
I get that as well.  Traditionally, Catholic apologetics entails demonstrating the claims of the Church to be the authentic and true Church founded by Christ and a reliable guardian of Catholic doctrine.  Yet we have Jorge and the problem of V2.  Really, the only approach is to bluntly tell them that the Church has been infiltrated since 1958 and these men are not popes.  Unfortunately Vatican II and the V2 Papal Imposters discredit the Church and the Church's claims, and in fact validate Eastern Orthodoxy and/or Old Catholicism ... if you grant that these men are real popes.  That is yet another reason why SVism is the way to go.
Can confirm that since abandoning Lefebvrism my debates with non-Catholics were much more effective. People would always point to Francis and I'd sound delusional explaining how it doesn't matter what he does. The funny thing is I was never comfortable with that part but now it's clear as day to me.

Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
« Reply #28 on: July 11, 2023, 02:24:47 PM »
I get that as well.  Traditionally, Catholic apologetics entails demonstrating the claims of the Church to be the authentic and true Church founded by Christ and a reliable guardian of Catholic doctrine.  Yet we have Jorge and the problem of V2.  Really, the only approach is to bluntly tell them that the Church has been infiltrated since 1958 and these men are not popes.  Unfortunately Vatican II and the V2 Papal Imposters discredit the Church and the Church's claims, and in fact validate Eastern Orthodoxy and/or Old Catholicism ... if you grant that these men are real popes.  That is yet another reason why SVism is the way to go.
Here's a typical problem I face:

Prot: But Francis/BXVI/JPII did/said [insert heresy/heterodoxy]...
Me: That's why we consider them anti-popes.
Prot: So each time something displeases you about a pope, you declare him an anti-pope...

I think that there are two ways of answering this:
1) Prove that there are reasons to believe that these men were never popes in the first place (BXVI known for heterodoxy since the 60s, JXXIII suspect of heresy since the 1910s, etc.)
2) Analyze their particular statement to show that it directly contradicts all previous doctrine.

The second way is tiresome and obviously I don't know all the answers nor can I cite from memory all dogmatic docuмents that are contradicted by the anti-popes. Also it could suggest that the pre VII doctrine is in some way on the same level as the post VII. "At the end of the day it's just two guys, Pius V and Paul VI, contradicting each other!" - the prot could say. 

Would the answer 1) be valid?

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
« Reply #29 on: July 11, 2023, 03:01:08 PM »
#2 is less tiresome and more productive for both you (learn more church history) and the protestant.  Doctrine is a much higher reference point and a more solid foundation for debating than a (so called conspiracy) theory about pope x, y or z wasn't pope.  In the end, even if you could prove 100% that pope x wasn't a pope, you still have to explain doctrine vs current errors so the person could learn the Faith.