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Author Topic: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V  (Read 23363 times)

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Offline NIFH

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Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
« Reply #105 on: July 19, 2023, 09:39:47 PM »
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  • Well, that's really your opinion because, as this crisis has proven, God has allowed evil that is beyond everyone's comprehension. 


    In the practical order (i.e. what we can see, hear and feel), the non-infallible Magisterium is corrupted.

    Theoretically, R&R and Sedes argue away the practical corruption, and come to the same conclusion, from different angles.
    R&R - The non-infallible Magisterium is corrupted but what matters is the infallible Magisterium which is still intact.
    Sedes - The non-infallible Magisterium is corrupted but it was done by people who didn't have authority so it doesn't change anything.

    Both sides explain away the practical evils, since there's no way to avoid them.  The reality is, the practical evils remain, just as the novus ordo/V2 church remains. 
    1.  R&R minimize the evils by saying the Infallible Magisterium is more important (which is true).
    2.  Sedes minimize the evils by saying the corrupted non-infallible Magisterium is illegal, null and void (which is true).

    Either way, both agree that the infallible Magisterium is still pure, holy and unchanging.  Either way, the corrupted, fallible Magisterium is still a problem and still causing spiritual destruction.  Either way, both theories fail to fix the practical problems in the world.
    The only practical solution to the crisis is the Consecration of Russia.  But how will people have the motivation to ask the pope for it, if they are tricked into believing we don't even have a pope?  The Devil has many such strategies to delay the Consecration.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
    « Reply #106 on: July 20, 2023, 05:06:55 AM »
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  • Well, that's really your opinion because, as this crisis has proven, God has allowed evil that is beyond everyone's comprehension. 


    In the practical order (i.e. what we can see, hear and feel), the non-infallible Magisterium is corrupted.

    Theoretically, R&R and Sedes argue away the practical corruption, and come to the same conclusion, from different angles.
    R&R - The non-infallible Magisterium is corrupted but what matters is the infallible Magisterium which is still intact.
    Sedes - The non-infallible Magisterium is corrupted but it was done by people who didn't have authority so it doesn't change anything.

    Both sides explain away the practical evils, since there's no way to avoid them.  The reality is, the practical evils remain, just as the novus ordo/V2 church remains. 
    1.  R&R minimize the evils by saying the Infallible Magisterium is more important (which is true).
    2.  Sedes minimize the evils by saying the corrupted non-infallible Magisterium is illegal, null and void (which is true).

    Either way, both agree that the infallible Magisterium is still pure, holy and unchanging.  Either way, the corrupted, fallible Magisterium is still a problem and still causing spiritual destruction.  Either way, both theories fail to fix the practical problems in the world.

    I don't think R&R sees it in quite the way you describe above. Archbishop Lefebvre never described in your way. He believed that the Church is occupied. By Modernists. That's not the same thing as having a corrupt magisterium.

    Let's say, for example, that a large city or a country in Europe during one of the past world wars was occupied for some years. Take, as a further example, Holland being occupied by Germans during WW11. (my husband's family was Dutch, and living in Holland at that time, so I've heard many stories of what happened). The county was still Holland during the occupation, even though there was not a Dutch leadership. The leadership was German. Of course that occupation lasted 2 or 3 years, which isn't much when compared to the occupation of the True Church by the Modernists. I believe that the invaders will be one day vanquished, but maybe not in our lifetimes.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
    « Reply #107 on: July 20, 2023, 05:49:57 AM »
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  • Quote
    I don't think R&R sees it in quite the way you describe above. 

    There are many flavors of R&R, just like the many flavors of Sedeism.


    Quote
    Archbishop Lefebvre never described in your way. He believed that the Church is occupied. By Modernists. That's not the same thing as having a corrupt magisterium.
    If you're talking about people, then you mean the 'hierarchy'.  The non-infallible magisterium is the collection of V2 writings, prayers, liturgy, practices, etc...not people.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
    « Reply #108 on: July 20, 2023, 05:54:12 AM »
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  • There are many flavors of R&R, just like the many flavors of Sedeism.

    If you're talking about people, then you mean the 'hierarchy'.  The non-infallible magisterium is the collection of V2 writings, prayers, liturgy, practices, etc...not people.

    True, there are many flavors, but I'm speaking of the most common flavor. 

    I'm referring the +ABL's take on the situation, which no one is required to accept. But still, he did not view the situation the way you do. That's all I'm saying. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
    « Reply #109 on: July 20, 2023, 08:20:20 AM »
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  • True, there are many flavors, but I'm speaking of the most common flavor.

    I'm referring the +ABL's take on the situation, which no one is required to accept. But still, he did not view the situation the way you do. That's all I'm saying.

    Well, the problem I have is with some modern R&R distorting and misrepresenting Archbishop Lefebvre's position, which I have no issues with.

    He affirms the Catholic truth that the Papacy is guided by the Holy Spirit that that this degree of destruction caused by the Pope is not possible.  He says to sedevacantists in one speech, "I agree with you there."  He then states that SVism is one possible answer.  He's never ruled out SVism as a possibility, but simply felt he didn't have the degree of certainty required to formally come out as an SV.

    So Archbishop Lefebvre never denied the MAJOR of the SV position.  He simply felt that there could be some unknown factor that could account for what's going on.  He went through some possibilities, such as that the V2 papal claimants were being blackmailed, or drugged, or whatever.  He said that those were not very likely, but he didn't have the certainty of faith to rule them out and conclude they weren't legitimate popes.

    Modern R&R, however, claim that legitimate Popes can corrupt the Church ... and then try to pretend that +Lefebvre supported their position. He did not, except possibly for a span of time between 1980 - 1984 or so.  But before then and after then, he remained very open to SVism being correct, but just wanted to defer to the Church's authority to definitely resolve the question.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
    « Reply #110 on: July 20, 2023, 08:25:23 AM »
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  • The only practical solution to the crisis is the Consecration of Russia.  But how will people have the motivation to ask the pope for it, if they are tricked into believing we don't even have a pope?  The Devil has many such strategies to delay the Consecration.

    Nobody's "tricked" into believing we don't have a pope, as that is in fact the truth.  You are the one who's been "tricked into" having become some flavor of Old Catholic.  As for not having a Pope, it's better to have no Pope than these destroyers.  You have no faith whatsoever in the Catholic Church and the guidance of the Holy Spirit over the Church.

    Regardless of whether you're an SV or R&R, this situation is beyond human resolution.  When the time comes, God will fix everything, pope or no pope.  You pretend as though God can't remedy the "no pope" situation?

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
    « Reply #111 on: July 20, 2023, 08:29:34 AM »
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  • Well, the problem I have is with some modern R&R distorting and misrepresenting Archbishop Lefebvre's position, which I have no issues with.

    He affirms the Catholic truth that the Papacy is guided by the Holy Spirit that that this degree of destruction caused by the Pope is not possible.  He says to sedevacantists in one speech, "I agree with you there."  He then states that SVism is one possible answer.  He's never ruled out SVism as a possibility, but simply felt he didn't have the degree of certainty required to formally come out as an SV.

    So Archbishop Lefebvre never denied the MAJOR of the SV position.  He simply felt that there could be some unknown factor that could account for what's going on.  He went through some possibilities, such as that the V2 papal claimants were being blackmailed, or drugged, or whatever.  He said that those were not very likely, but he didn't have the certainty of faith to rule them out and conclude they weren't legitimate popes.

    Modern R&R, however, claim that legitimate Popes can corrupt the Church ... and then try to pretend that +Lefebvre supported their position. He did not, except possibly for a span of time between 1980 - 1984 or so.  But before then and after then, he remained very open to SVism being correct, but just wanted to defer to the Church's authority to definitely resolve the question.

    Well, the problem I see with Pro Vobis stance, is that +ABL did not discuss the "Magisterium," or whether or not is it or is not corruptible. As far as I know, it just wasn't a part of Tradition for him.

    It seems to me that this issue is relatively new, and I'm not sure who invented it, maybe it was Fr. Fenton, or Fr. Cekada, or Des Lauriers. Or none of them. The term "Magisterium" is also used by advocates of VII. I know, because I used to argue with them on the old Catholic Answers forum. For them, the Church is built on Scripture, Tradition, and "the Magisterium."

    The whole issue or subject of "the Magisterium" seems like a novelty to me, and +ABL wasn't really into novelties, for the most part (the BoD issue aside).
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline NIFH

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    Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
    « Reply #112 on: July 20, 2023, 07:05:54 PM »
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  • He affirms the Catholic truth that the Papacy is guided by the Holy Spirit that that this degree of destruction caused by the Pope is not possible.  He says to sedevacantists in one speech, "I agree with you there."
    So Archbishop Lefebvre never denied the MAJOR of the SV position.  He simply felt that there could be some unknown factor that could account for what's going on.  He went through some possibilities, such as that the V2 papal claimants were being blackmailed, or drugged, or whatever.  He said that those were not very likely, but he didn't have the certainty of faith to rule them out and conclude they weren't legitimate popes.
    +Lefebvre gave zero possibility to the theories of the pope being blackmailed, drugged, etc.  In the speech you refer to, he did indeed agree that this degree of destruction could not possibly be caused by a pope.  He then gives possibility to the theories of the pope losing his office because of formal heresy known only to a few, or because of automatic excommunication for Masonic membership, again known only to a few.

    In the very same calendar year (1976), however, he spoke on the topic again, and no longer affirmed that the pope was incapable of causing such destruction.  Remember that he was almost completely alone, and at this early point in the crisis was feeling around in the dark.  Just as it took time for him to realize the unacceptability of the '65 and '67 Missals, these theological questions took a few years to research and understand.  As you say, these small adjustments of view are a refreshing mark of honesty and humility.


    Offline NIFH

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    Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
    « Reply #113 on: July 20, 2023, 07:16:04 PM »
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  • As for not having a Pope, it's better to have no Pope than these destroyers.  You have no faith whatsoever in the Catholic Church and the guidance of the Holy Spirit over the Church.
    It may be better, but that has no bearing on whether it is true.

    The Holy Ghost will protect the Church from complete destruction.  He will also not allow Church Magisterium to be corrupted, no matter how much garbage comes from the Pope's mouth or pen.  He will never abandon any soul, unless a soul abandons Him first.

    Offline NIFH

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    Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
    « Reply #114 on: July 20, 2023, 07:27:23 PM »
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  • Regardless of whether you're an SV or R&R, this situation is beyond human resolution.
    As St. Ignatius says:  pray as though everything depends on God, and work as though everything depends on you.  God will fix this situation through His Blessed Mother, but He expects us to do our little bit.  He has made it clear that the Consecration of Russia is what He wants us to pray, sacrifice and work for.  It comes from the heresy of Quietism to adopt the defeatist attitude of 'we can do nothing.'

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
    « Reply #115 on: July 20, 2023, 07:33:28 PM »
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  • As St. Ignatius says:  pray as though everything depends on God, and work as though everything depends on you.  God will fix this situation through His Blessed Mother, but He expects us to do our little bit.  He has made it clear that the Consecration of Russia is what He wants us to pray, sacrifice and work for.  It comes from the heresy of Quietism to adopt the defeatist attitude of 'we can do nothing.'

    Where do you read "Quietism" into the statement that the situation is beyond human resolution?  We can obviously pray and make sacrifices, etc.  Point was that whether you're talking about a "hierarchy" thoroughly polluted with Modernism (with the exception of perhaps a literal handful of prelates) or a vacant See, both situations are beyond our capability to fix ... in any concrete or practical way.


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
    « Reply #116 on: July 20, 2023, 09:18:07 PM »
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  • As St. Ignatius says:  pray as though everything depends on God, and work as though everything depends on you.  God will fix this situation through His Blessed Mother, but He expects us to do our little bit.  He has made it clear that the Consecration of Russia is what He wants us to pray, sacrifice and work for.  It comes from the heresy of Quietism to adopt the defeatist attitude of 'we can do nothing.'
    Well said NIFH. Are you sure that is St Ignatius who said that and not St Teresa of Avilla?

    Offline NIFH

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    Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
    « Reply #117 on: July 20, 2023, 09:48:59 PM »
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  • Well said NIFH. Are you sure that is St Ignatius who said that and not St Teresa of Avilla?
    Thank you.  A quick search seems to show St. Ignatius was quoting St. Augustine.

    Offline NIFH

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    Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
    « Reply #118 on: July 20, 2023, 09:53:51 PM »
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  • Where do you read "Quietism" into the statement that the situation is beyond human resolution?  We can obviously pray and make sacrifices, etc.  Point was that whether you're talking about a "hierarchy" thoroughly polluted with Modernism (with the exception of perhaps a literal handful of prelates) or a vacant See, both situations are beyond our capability to fix ... in any concrete or practical way.
    Writing letters to the authorities asking for the Consecration is a concrete and practical way to work towards the end of the crisis.  There will always be something we can do.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Joint Statement of SSPX-MC Priests: Fr. David Hewko & Fr. Hugo Ruiz V
    « Reply #119 on: July 23, 2023, 04:06:57 PM »
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  • :facepalm:  It's called "canon" law.  Only canons (i.e. church authorities) can interpret and apply it.  The only exceptions are if a laymen get a canon law degree (but even this is a post-V2 modernization).

    What nonsense.  You continue to overlook the plain words used in Canon 188.4º.  Here we go again:

    “Ob tacitam renuntiationem ab ipso iure admissam quaelibet officia vacant ipso facto et sine ulla declaratione, si clericus: A fide catholica publice defecerit.”
    (1917 Code of Canon Law, Canon 188.4º)

    “Any office becomes vacant upon the fact and without any declaration by tacit resignation recognized by the law itself if a cleric: Publicly defects from the Catholic faith.”

    ipso facto et sine ulla declaratione = upon the fact and without any declaration

    A fact is perceived by the senses and apprehended by the intellect.  What you are saying is that the fact of public defection can only be observed by the Church authorities.  First of all, that is nonsense in and of itself because a simple layman can observe a fact.  Secondly, if that were the case, the Canon would not state "upon the fact and without any declaration".  It would say something like "upon the fact and declared by the competent authority".  Once again, you make Canon 188.4º moot.