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Author Topic: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo  (Read 20377 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
« Reply #210 on: October 22, 2020, 04:53:17 AM »
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  • I'll admit there's a certain R and R theory I don't like or think is orthodox, namely the ones that don't set *criteria* for when a teaching is or isn't binding, instead *just* saying its not binding because its false or whatnot.  A true pope couldn't follow all the rules for an ex cathedra ruling in error.

    I don't know if any of that made sense or not, but I'll start there.
    Pope Pius IX gave us the criteria for when a teaching is binding in Tuas Libenter: "Even when it is only a question of the submission owed to divine faith, this cannot be limited merely to points defined by the express decrees of the Ecuмenical Councils, or of the Roman Pontiffs and of this Apostolic See; this submission must also be extended to all that has been handed down as divinely revealed by the ordinary teaching authority of the entire Church spread over the whole world, and which, for this reason, Catholic theologians, with a universal and constant consent, regard as being of the faith".

    Quite simply, whatever teachings or beliefs fall outside of this criteria is not binding, the reason they are not binding is because, like the teachings and beliefs of V2, they are not Catholic.



    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #211 on: October 22, 2020, 04:56:54 AM »
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  • You will be waiting for a long, long time for an answer.

    Instead, you will be told by the sedes why your question is........anything but deserving of an answer.
    This.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #212 on: October 22, 2020, 06:50:18 AM »
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  • On that question I return to pre-V2 grammar school catechism.
    What are the 3 things necessary to commit mortal sin?
    1. The sin must be serious (mortal).
    2. The sinner must know it is serious (mortal).
    3. The sinner must fully consent to the serious (mortal) sin.
    A man who does his best to answer these questions, even if he is wrong, is clearly NOT fully consenting to something he KNOWS is mortally sinful.
    THAT is why we can discount the anathemata of the dogmatic popolators and the dogmatic sedes.
    Again I invoke the need for love of Truth (2 Thess 2:10-11).
    I agree with you TBH.  I think most prudent is to see this as a "we have a terrible Pope". I disagree with Sedes on procedure.  I don't therefore think they're all anathema.  It seems almost dishonest to say the case of Pope Francis isn't confusing.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #213 on: October 22, 2020, 08:52:55 AM »
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  • Byzcat, I too would like to understand Lad's position better, but he never goes deeper than what he wrote earlier.  I think the topic gets him riled up, so he tries to avoid it.
    .
    It's hard to have a honest discussion of these matters; too many are entrenched in their opinions already.  I'd love a honest critique/discussion of my views, by someone who is searching for the truth, not for the "kill shot" against the "other side".  PM me if you're interested.

    There isn't any deeper to go, Pax.  You've said that the New Mass is blasphemous.  Everyone knows that the V2 and post-V2 Magisterium is better to be ignored.  V2 have corrupted doctrine, public worship, canon law, general discipline.  It's about focusing on the big picture.

    Is it possible for the Catholic Church to have a blasphemous Mass, corrupt doctrine, corrupt Canon Law, and corrupt discipline?

    Many heretics in the past have been condemned for saying that exact thing, and the universal dogmatic theological consensus has always been that this is impossible due to the notes of the Church, the Holiness of the Church in particular.

    This Conciliar Church is not the Catholic Church.  Most Traditional Catholics know this, and this is why no one has any qualms about separating from this entity.

    So it's back to the question of how a Catholic Church and a non-Catholic Conciliar Church can co-exist as the same entity.  You made a metaphor with a parasite.  But a parasite is not one with the body but an external invader.  To say otherwise would be analogous to the abortionist claim that the unborn child is simply a part of the mother's body.

    Catholic Church and Conciliar Church cannot co-exist as the same substantial entity.  As I demonstrated from Aristotelean-Thomistic philosophy, the only way this is possible would be by applying a material-formal distinction ... such as the sedeprivationists do and what Fr. Chazal does at least implicitly.

    You're arguing from the limits of strict infallibility but then falsely extrapolating that to what is tantamount to a defection of the Church.  We're not talking about a sentence or two or a paragraph in some papal encyclical that might be problematic.  We're talking about a NEW RELIGION ... with its new public worship, its new saints, its new doctrine, and its new law and discipline.  This goes FAR BEYOND the discussion regarding whether a particular statement meets the notes of infallibility.

    In other words, your argument from fallibility simply doesn't scale to the point of a defection of the Church.

    Offline Your Friend Colin

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #214 on: October 22, 2020, 09:09:27 AM »
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  • Is it possible for the Catholic Church to have a blasphemous Mass, corrupt doctrine, corrupt Canon Law, and corrupt discipline?
    No.

    Quote
    The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth — all of which truth is taught by the Holy Spirit. Should the church be able to order, yield to, or permit those things which tend toward the destruction of souls and the disgrace and detriment of the sacrament instituted by Christ?

    Gregory XVI, Quo Graviora 




    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #215 on: October 22, 2020, 09:27:01 AM »
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  • There isn't any deeper to go, Pax.  You've said that the New Mass is blasphemous.  Everyone knows that the V2 and post-V2 Magisterium is better to be ignored.  V2 have corrupted doctrine, public worship, canon law, general discipline.  It's about focusing on the big picture.

    Is it possible for the Catholic Church to have a blasphemous Mass, corrupt doctrine, corrupt Canon Law, and corrupt discipline?

    Many heretics in the past have been condemned for saying that exact thing, and the universal dogmatic theological consensus has always been that this is impossible due to the notes of the Church, the Holiness of the Church in particular.

    This Conciliar Church is not the Catholic Church.  Most Traditional Catholics know this, and this is why no one has any qualms about separating from this entity.

    So it's back to the question of how a Catholic Church and a non-Catholic Conciliar Church can co-exist as the same entity.  You made a metaphor with a parasite.  But a parasite is not one with the body but an external invader.  To say otherwise would be analogous to the abortionist claim that the unborn child is simply a part of the mother's body.

    Catholic Church and Conciliar Church cannot co-exist as the same substantial entity.  As I demonstrated from Aristotelean-Thomistic philosophy, the only way this is possible would be by applying a material-formal distinction ... such as the sedeprivationists do and what Fr. Chazal does at least implicitly.

    You're arguing from the limits of strict infallibility but then falsely extrapolating that to what is tantamount to a defection of the Church.  We're not talking about a sentence or two or a paragraph in some papal encyclical that might be problematic.  We're talking about a NEW RELIGION ... with its new public worship, its new saints, its new doctrine, and its new law and discipline.  This goes FAR BEYOND the discussion regarding whether a particular statement meets the notes of infallibility.

    In other words, your argument from fallibility simply doesn't scale to the point of a defection of the Church.
    Can't get any more succinct and clearer than that. 

    Offline Veritatis

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #216 on: October 22, 2020, 10:12:19 AM »
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  • Is it possible for the Catholic Church to have a blasphemous Mass, corrupt doctrine, corrupt Canon Law, and corrupt discipline?
    Do you believe the new Mass as promulgated by Paul VI is blasphemous?  If so, define blasphemous and show how it meets the definition.

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #217 on: October 22, 2020, 10:25:55 AM »
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  • Do you believe the new Mass as promulgated by Paul VI is blasphemous?  If so, define blasphemous and show how it meets the definition.
    For a start, the тαℓмυdic offertory.
    The Novus Ordo’s Offertory was lifted from the same “Torah” that blasphemes the Holy Family:
    http://www.catholictradition.org/Eucharist/roman-mass4.htm


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #218 on: October 22, 2020, 10:32:29 AM »
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  • Quote
    Is it possible for the Catholic Church to have a blasphemous Mass, corrupt doctrine, corrupt Canon Law, and corrupt discipline?
    Yes, it's possible, because all of these things have happened in history, the difference is 1) they are all happening now, at the same time, so it appears overwhelming.  2) such corruption is not part of the Church officially, but is a corruption of leadership.  In other words, i'll say it for the 1,000th time, these novelties are optional, so they are not officially a change of the Catholic Faith.  They are part of the optional, Conciliar church, but the True Church still remains holy and pure.
    .

    Quote
    Many heretics in the past have been condemned for saying that exact thing, and the universal dogmatic theological consensus has always been that this is impossible due to the notes of the Church, the Holiness of the Church in particular.
    One cannot be saved unless he hold fully and completely all Truths of the Faith.  The conciliar church had added/subtracted all manner of things but such changes are not binding, so they do not affect the Faith, officially.
    .
    The heretics you speak of were saying that the Church could change doctrine or the sacraments.  V2 has not changed either, it has only offered replacements.  The true doctrines/sacraments remain; the replacements are a competing "product".
    .
    A plane has to have 2 wings to fly.  You can add 5 smaller wings to a plane, or 500, but as long as the 2 main wings remain, it will function.  You can tell everyone that "modern planes" need 10 wings to work, but in reality, it only needs 2.  The True Church's 2 wings still exist; the conciliar church has added 500 new, mini-wings, to try to overshadow the 2 main wings.  But, in reality, the 2 main wings keep the plane in the air while the 500 are just distractions.
    .

    Quote
    So it's back to the question of how a Catholic Church and a non-Catholic Conciliar Church can co-exist as the same entity.  You made a metaphor with a parasite.  But a parasite is not one with the body but an external invader.

    They aren't the same entity, that's where your question is wrong to begin with.  The conciliar church IS an invader, a fifth column, a freemasonic infiltration.  The True Church still exists, it still is a separate, pure entity.  The True Faith still exists, with all of its dogmas, Mass, etc.
    .
    A weird example would be the few times in history (exorcism of Emily Rose is 1 example) where God allowed young women to be possessed by the devil, as a meritorious suffering.  These young women were subjected to all manner of the devil's bodily contortions and his foul language, but these women did not lose their free will and still continued to receive Holy Communion, having no sin involved.  Outwardly, these women seemed to be devils, but interiorly, they did not sin.
    .
    The Apostles were scandalized with Our Lord's Divine Nature was hidden during His Passion and He became, as Scripture says, "a worm".  But even as exteriorly, He did not appear Divine, nevertheless, He remained pure God, even on the Cross.  So, the Church remains pure, even while being crucified by Her enemies.
    .

    Quote
    You're arguing from the limits of strict infallibility but then falsely extrapolating that to what is tantamount to a defection of the Church.  We're not talking about a sentence or two or a paragraph in some papal encyclical that might be problematic.  We're talking about a NEW RELIGION ... with its new public worship, its new saints, its new doctrine, and its new law and discipline.  This goes FAR BEYOND the discussion regarding whether a particular statement meets the notes of infallibility.

    The Church has not defected, properly and officially.  There are no fewer doctrines, the Mass is not less powerful, the sacraments not less giving of grace.  The conciliar church has offered new ideals, new liturgies, new sacramental forms, (and only God knows if such things are valid), but even if invalid, such things are optional.
    .
    Much like the we strict, water-baptism folk argue that God will lead those of Good Will to the Church, so I argue that God will lead the Good Willed out of the novus ordo, into Tradition.  I've seen it countless times in my life, and the Divine Providence of God still works wonders.
    .
    Quote
    In other words, your argument from fallibility simply doesn't scale to the point of a defection of the Church.

    The True Church has not defected.  The current men in the hierarchy have defected (mostly).  But men are not the Church.  The conciliar church is not a defection but a masking, a covering, an eclipse of what still exists.

    Offline Veritatis

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #219 on: October 22, 2020, 10:44:56 AM »
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  • For a start, the тαℓмυdic offertory.
    The Novus Ordo’s Offertory was lifted from the same “Torah” that blasphemes the Holy Family:
    http://www.catholictradition.org/Eucharist/roman-mass4.htm
    The Torah are the first five books of the bible.  Do you mean the тαℓмυd?    If the words of the offertory are contained in the тαℓмυd, and the тαℓмυd blasphemes Christ, it doesn't mean the words used in the offertory are blasphemous.  The тαℓмυd also contains words of the Bible. Are the words from the Bible blasphemous simply because they are in the тαℓмυd?
    Try again.  This time define the term blasphemy and demonstrate how the New Mass as promulgated by Paul VI meets the definition.  

    PS. Tell me where you attend Mass and I bet I can prove that the Mass you attend is blasphemous.

    Offline Veritatis

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #220 on: October 22, 2020, 11:25:46 AM »
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  • If the words of the offertory are contained in the тαℓмυd, and the тαℓмυd blasphemes Christ, it doesn't mean the words used in the offertory are blasphemous.  
    For example, here is what the article you linked to gives as an example of a blasphemy:

    "The source of the replacement for the Offertory is clarified in the Jєωιѕн Encyclopedia, which introduces a list of "benedictions prescribed in the тαℓмυd and adopted in the liturgy; each of them beginning with the formula 'Blessed art Thou, O Lord, Our God, King of the Universe'!" Although the liturgy of Judaism is intended in the above reference, ironically this тαℓмυdic benediction became repeated almost verbatim in the New Mass, But of even greater irony is the fact that in this instance the Latin is closer in form to the тαℓмυd than the English translation done by the ICEL: for the Latin reads, Benedictus es, Domine, Deus universi, which translated literally becomes Blessed are You, Lord, God of the universe, whereas the common translation one encounters is Blessed are You, Lord God of all creation. The difference is small, but the Latin more explicitly parallels the тαℓмυd, Tragically, those who hope for a "purification" of the New Mass by rendering it in Latin would only render the blasphemous parallel between the Offertory's replacement and the тαℓмυd more exact."

    Sorry, but "Blessed are Thou, O Lord, Our God, King of the Universe" is not blasphemous, and being contained in the тαℓмυd does not make it so. 


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #221 on: October 22, 2020, 11:38:30 AM »
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  • Do you believe the new Mass as promulgated by Paul VI is blasphemous?  If so, define blasphemous and show how it meets the definition.
    If you have not read The Great Sacrilege, you should. It's really is very good.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Veritatis

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #222 on: October 22, 2020, 11:53:53 AM »
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  • If you have not read The Great Sacrilege, you should. It's really is very good.
    Yes, I've read it several times. Very good indeed. I'm not defending the new Mass per se, I'm just just questioning if it is truly blasphemous.  I agree that it is a watered down liturgy, but that's different than a blasphemous liturgy.  

    Offline Veritatis

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #223 on: October 22, 2020, 12:10:19 PM »
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  • For a start, the тαℓмυdic offertory.
    The Novus Ordo’s Offertory was lifted from the same “Torah” that blasphemes the Holy Family:
    http://www.catholictradition.org/Eucharist/roman-mass4.htm

    From the article you linked to:

    “A modern myth is that this "Jєωιѕн table blessing" has its roots in worship from the time of Ezra. Searching the Bible should reveal that this story is absent from the pages of Holy Writ. Where, then, does it originate? The Jєωιѕн Encyclopedia 9 (published 1901-1906, consisting of twelve volumes) tells us, in its article on Benedictions, that this story of the origin of "blessings" in Judaism is a "rabbinical tradition" in the тαℓмυd itself-----in Berakoth 33a, as indeed it is.” http://www.catholictradition.org/Eucharist/roman-mass4.htm

    I would first note that just because the blessing is not recorded in Ezra I or II does not mean its roots are not from the time of Ezra.  Regarding Berakoth 33a, here it is in its entirety:

    Quote
    тαℓмυd - Mas. Berachoth 33a

    MISHNAH. THE MIRACLE OF THE RAINFALL9 IS MENTIONED IN THE BENEDICTION OF THE RESURRECTION, AND THE PETITION10 FOR RAIN IN THE BENEDICTION OF THE YEARS, AND HABDALAH11 IN ‘THAT GRACIOUSLY GRANTEST KNOWLEDGE’.12 R. AKIBA SAYS: HE SAYS IT AS A FOURTH BLESSING13 BY ITSELF; R. ELIEZER SAYS: IT IS SAID IN THE THANKSGIVING BENEDICTION.14
    GEMARA. THE MIRACLE OF THE RAINFALL etc. What is the reason? —

    R. Joseph said: Because it is put on a level with the resurrection of the dead, therefore it was inserted in the benediction of the resurrection.

    THE PETITION FOR RAIN IN THE BENEDICTION OF THE YEARS. What is the reason? — R. Joseph said: Because [the petition] refers to sustenance, therefore it was inserted in the benediction of sustenance.

    HABDALAH IN THAT GRACIOUSLY GRANTEST KNOWLEDGE’. What is the reason? — R. Joseph said: Because it is a kind of wisdom,15 it was inserted in the benediction of wisdom. The Rabbis, however, say: Because the reference is to a weekday, therefore it was inserted in the weekday blessing. R. Ammi said: Great is knowledge, since it was placed at the beginning of the weekday blessings. R. Ammi also said: Great is knowledge since it was placed between two names,16 as it says, For a God of knowledge is the Lord.17 And if one has not knowledge, it is forbidden to have mercy on him, as it says, For it is a people of no understanding, therefore He that made them will have no compassion upon them.18 R. Eleazar said: Great is the Sanctuary, since it has been placed between two names, as it says, Thou hast made, O Lord, the sanctuary, O Lord.19 R. Eleazar also said: Whenever there is in a man knowledge, it is as if the Sanctuary had been built in his days; for knowledge is set between two names, and the Sanctuary is set between two names.

    R. Aha Karhina'ah demurred to this. According to this, he said, great is vengeance since it has been set between two names, as it says, God of vengeance, O Lord;20 He replied: That is so; that is to say, it is great in its proper sphere; and this accords with what ‘Ulla said: Why two vengeances here?21 One for good and one for ill. For good, as it is written, He shined forth from Mount Paran;22 for ill, as it is written, God of vengeance, O Lord, God of vengeance, shine forth.20 R. AKIBA SAYS: HE SAYS IT AS A FOURTH BLESSING, etc. R. Shaman b. Abba said to R. Johanan: Let us see: It was the Men of the Great ѕуηαgσgυє23 who instituted for Israel blessings and prayers, sanctifications and habdalahs.24 Let us see where they inserted them! — He replied: At first they inserted it [the habdalah] in the Tefillah: when they [Israel] became richer, they instituted that it should be said over the cup [of wine]; when they became poor again they again inserted it in the Tefillah; and they said that one who has said habdalah in the Tefillah must say it [again] over the cup [of wine]. It has also been stated: R. Hiyya b. Abba said in the name of R. Johanan: The Men of the Great ѕуηαgσgυє instituted for Israel blessings and prayers, sanctifications and habdalahs. At first they inserted the habdalah in the Tefillah. When they [Israel] became richer, they instituted that it should be said over the cup [of wine]. When they became poor again, they inserted it in the Tefillah; and they said that one who says habdalah in the Tefillah must [also] say it over the cup [of wine]. It has also been stated: Rabbah and R. Joseph both say: One who has said habdalah in the Tefillah must [also] say it over the cup [of wine]. Said Raba: We can bring an objection against this ruling [from the following]: If a man forgot and did not mention the miracle of the rain in the resurrection blessing, or petition for rain in the blessing of the years, he is made to repeat the Tefillah. If, however, he forgot habdalah in ‘that graciously grantest knowledge’, he is not made to repeat, because he can say it over the cup [of wine]!25 Do not read, because he can say it over the cup [of wine], but read, because he says it over the cup [of wine].

    It has also been stated: R. Benjamin b. Jephet said: R. Jose asked R. Johanan in Sidon — some report, R. Simeon b. Jacob from Tyre asked R. Johanan: But I have heard that one who has said habdalah in the Tefillah says it over the cup [of wine]; or is it not so? He replied to him: He must say it over the cup [of wine].

    The question was raised: If one has said habdalah over the cup [of wine], need he say it [again] in the Tefillah? — R. Nahman b. Isaac replied: We learn the answer a fortiori from the case of Tefillah. The essential place of the habdalah is in the Tefillah, and yet it was laid down that one who has said it in the Tefillah must say it also over the cup [of wine]. Does it not then stand to reason that if he has said it over the cup [of wine], which is not its essential place, he must say it [again] in the Tefillah? R. Aha Arika26 recited in the presence of R. Hinena: He who says habdalah in the Tefillah is more praiseworthy than he who says it over the cup [of wine], and if he says it in both, may blessings rest on his head! This statement contains a contradiction. It says that he who says habdalah in the Tefillah is more praiseworthy than he who says it over the cup [of wine], which would show that to say it in Tefillah alone is sufficient, and again it teaches, ‘and if he says it in both, may blessings rest on his head’, but since he has said it in one he is quit, the second is a blessing which is not necessary, and Raba, or as some say Resh Lakish, or again as some say, both Resh Lakish and R. Johanan, have said: Whoever says a blessing which is not necessary transgresses the command of ‘thou shalt not take [God's name in vain]’!27 Rather read thus: If he has said habdalah in one and not in the other, blessings shall rest upon his head.

    R. Hisda inquired of R. Shesheth: If he forgot in both,28 what is he to do? — He replied: If one forgot in both, he says the whole again.29

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #224 on: October 22, 2020, 12:12:46 PM »
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  • Quote
    Blasphemy (Greek blaptein, "to injure", and pheme, "reputation") signifies etymologically gross irreverence towards any person or thing worthy of exalted esteem.
    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02595a.htm


    They swapped the Spotless Victim for "made by human hands."

    THAT is blasphemous—and emblematic of the self-deification of тαℓмυdic Judaism.


    Further, note that I put "Torah" in quotes because (((your ѕуηαgσgυє of Satan's))) definition of "Torah" is not our Catholic definition of Torah: http://judaism.is/torah.html