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Author Topic: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo  (Read 20415 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
« Reply #165 on: October 21, 2020, 03:42:13 PM »
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    • V2 didn’t teach “what has always been taught” so it’s part of the fallible, ordinary, able-to-err Magisterium. 
    .
    The magisterium you refer to is the “Ordinary & Universal” magisterium.  You forgot the “universal” aspect (ie “always believed”).
    .
    However, you could be right, because some theologians only refer to the Magisterium as 2 levels, either 1) Solemn or 2) Ordinary.  These theologians would categorize V2 as non-Magisterial because it’s neither Solemn (ie doctrinal) nor Traditional/Scriptural (not “always believed).  
    .
    But the modern definition of Magisterium has 3 levels, the first 2 are infallible; the last one isn’t - 1) Solemn/ExtraOrdinary 2) Ordinary & Universal 3) simply Ordinary.
    .
    Part of the problem in discussing the Magisterium is there are 1,088 different definitions and classifications used.  But when you break it down into definitions, people can agree.  But it’s not intuitive. 
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #166 on: October 21, 2020, 04:00:27 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mark 79 on October 21, 2020, 02:45:14 PM
    "…simply cannot be true…"—Because you say so?

    At the risk of repeating myself—He can be elected (Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis §34) and then fall "automatically "immediately" "without need for any further declaration" (cuм Ex Apostolatus Officio).

    "Deciding his status is a new idea…"—There is nothing new about recognizing manifest heresy and manifest heretics.
    No, not because I say so, because as I said, it is in contradiction with the law because as the pope, there is no provision in the law for self deposition, which means he either has to retire or die to get out of it. 

    Ok, for the sake of argument I agree, he can fall "automatically and immediately." Now, lest the Church be further divided, by what official proclamation does the whole Church know that he a) self deposed, b) we are not to listen to him, and c) he is no longer pope? 

    No, there is nothing new about recognizing manifest heresy and manifest heretics, the Church in fact has always obligated the faithful to do this. Deciding that the Seat is Vacant while a living pope occupies it is what is new, this, per the Canon of St. Vincent of Lerins, is what is not Catholic - because it is an idea that has never been held as a part of any Catholic doctrine through all the generations of the Church by the vast majority of the people.

    Now you will want to repeat that his heresies decides he vacated the seat all by himself, the thing you are not accepting is, being that is impossible to prove without an official declaration means that that is an idea which is really only an opinion and nothing more. 

      
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #167 on: October 21, 2020, 04:13:54 PM »
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    Ok, for the sake of argument I agree, he can fall "automatically and immediately." 
    The pope can only fall automatically/immediately into excommunication not deposition.  An excommunication is a spiritual penalty, which does not affect his material/govt office.  It is up to the Cardinals to investigate/determine heresy, by way of St Paul’s 2 rebuke process, which then proves his manifest obstinate error and so he deposes himself from his chair.  But he cannot be deposed without the Cardinals’ investigative/rebuke process.  
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    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #168 on: October 21, 2020, 04:37:58 PM »
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    • What does he think now after Pope celebrates gαy history month with release of new film. 
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    Offline Your Friend Colin

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #169 on: October 21, 2020, 05:18:38 PM »
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    • Quote from: Viva Cristo Rey on October 21, 2020, 04:37:58 PM
    What does he think now after Pope celebrates gαy history month with release of new film.
    He could do anything and people will insist he is the Vicar of Christ. Although, that doesn’t mean anything, because they’re going to ignore about everything he tells them to do and thereby reduce the Papacy to a mere formality. 
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #170 on: October 21, 2020, 05:25:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: Your Friend Colin on October 21, 2020, 05:18:38 PM
    He could do anything and people will insist he is the Vicar of Christ. Although, that doesn’t mean anything, because they’re going to ignore about everything he tells them to do and thereby reduce the Papacy to a mere formality.
    Bingo.
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    Offline TKGS

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #171 on: October 21, 2020, 05:27:06 PM »
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    • Quote from: Your Friend Colin on October 21, 2020, 05:18:38 PM
    He could do anything and people will insist he is the Vicar of Christ. Although, that doesn’t mean anything, because they’re going to ignore about everything he tells them to do and thereby reduce the Papacy to a mere formality.
    Well, certainly they would change their mind if he came out in favor of civil unions.............
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    Offline Your Friend Colin

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #172 on: October 21, 2020, 05:49:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: TKGS on October 21, 2020, 05:27:06 PM
    Well, certainly they would change their mind if he came out in favor of civil unions.............
    That’ll do it!  ;)
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #173 on: October 21, 2020, 07:01:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: Your Friend Colin on October 21, 2020, 05:18:38 PM
    He could do anything and people will insist he is the Vicar of Christ.

    ...because unlike you, we do not believe we have the authority or right to declare a pope a nope.

    We will wait for the hierarchy to declare his heresy and deposition, and until and unless that happens, we will simply ignore and oppose him.
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    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #174 on: October 21, 2020, 07:40:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on October 21, 2020, 07:01:34 PM
    ...because unlike you, we do not believe we have the authority or right to declare a pope a nope.

    We will wait for the hierarchy to declare his heresy and deposition, and until and unless that happens, we will simply ignore and oppose him.

    It's already been declared.  You missed the bus.
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    Offline Your Friend Colin

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #175 on: October 21, 2020, 07:41:01 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on October 21, 2020, 07:01:34 PM
    ...because unlike you, we do not believe we have the authority or right to declare a pope a nope.

    We will wait for the hierarchy to declare his heresy and deposition, and until and unless that happens, we will simply ignore and oppose him.
    Yeah, but you have the authority and right to declare their Councils, Mass, Sacraments, Canon Law, universal disciplinary laws, Canonizations and Encyclicals null and void. But when I question his legitimacy to the Chair of Peter BECAUSE of all the aforementioned, that’s too much. Got it.

    Be sure not to hold your breath while waiting for the likes of Cupich, Dolan, Wilton, Wuerl and the gang to depose Chaos Frank. Hah!

    And with all the time you’ll save ignoring and opposing the man you believe holds the place of God on Earth, the Roman Pontiff, that should give you plenty of spare time to think about the DOGMA that requires submission to the Roman Pontiff as an absolute necessity for salvation. 
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    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #176 on: October 21, 2020, 07:51:09 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on October 21, 2020, 04:13:54 PM
    The pope can only fall automatically/immediately into excommunication not deposition.  An excommunication is a spiritual penalty, which does not affect his material/govt office.  It is up to the Cardinals to investigate/determine heresy, by way of St Paul’s 2 rebuke process, which then proves his manifest obstinate error and so he deposes himself from his chair.  But he cannot be deposed without the Cardinals’ investigative/rebuke process.  
    Just as the heretic puts himself outside the Church, the heretics deposes himself.
    You confuse the deposition with the formal declaration.
    The clear verbiage of cuм Ex Apostolatus Officio:
    cuм ex Apostolatus Officio
     
    “In addition, that if ever at any time it shall appear that any… Cardinal of the aforesaid Roman Church… or even the Roman Pontiff, prior to his promotion or his elevation as Cardinal or Roman Pontiff, has deviated from the Catholic Faith or fallen into some heresy: (i) the promotion or elevation, even if it shall have been uncontested and by the unanimous assent of all the Cardinals, shall be null, void and worthless…those thus promoted or elevated shall be deprived automatically, and without need for any further declaration, of all dignity, position, honour, title, authority, office and power.”
     
    Pope Paul IV, cuм ex Apostolatus Officio, Feb. 15, 1559, §6 (Roman Bullarium Vol. IV. Sec. I, pp. 354-357)
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    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #177 on: October 21, 2020, 08:02:52 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on October 21, 2020, 07:01:34 PM
    We will wait for the hierarchy to declare his heresy and deposition, and until and unless that happens, we will simply ignore and oppose him.
    The infallible pronouncements of Vatican 1 suggest that you damn yourself.



    Quote
    Hence we teach and declare that by the appointment of our Lord the Roman Church possesses a sovereignty of ordinary power over all other Churches, and that this power of jurisdiction of the Roman pontiff, which is truly Episcopal, is immediate; to which all, of whatsoever rite and dignity, are bound, by their duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, to submit, not only in matters which belong to faith and morals, but also in those that appertain to the discipline and government of the Church throughout the world; so that the Church of Christ may be one flock under one supreme pastor, through the preservation of unity, both of communion and of profession of the same faith, with the Roman pontiff. This is the teaching of Catholic truth, from which no one can deviate without loss of faith and salvation.

    Chapter III of Pastor Aeternus, "On the Power and Nature of the Primacy of the Roman Pontiff." 
    SUBMIT TO YOUR POPE, SEAN!
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #178 on: October 21, 2020, 08:20:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: Clemens Maria on October 21, 2020, 07:40:24 PM
    It's already been declared.  You missed the bus.

    Indeed?

    I eagerly await your citation of the council which declared the deposition of Francis!
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #179 on: October 21, 2020, 08:21:20 PM »
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    • Quote from: Your Friend Colin on October 21, 2020, 07:41:01 PM
    Yeah, but you have the authority and right to declare their Councils, Mass, Sacraments, Canon Law, universal disciplinary laws, Canonizations and Encyclicals null and void. But when I question his legitimacy to the Chair of Peter BECAUSE of all the aforementioned, that’s too much. Got it.

    Be sure not to hold your breath while waiting for the likes of Cupich, Dolan, Wilton, Wuerl and the gang to depose Chaos Frank. Hah!

    And with all the time you’ll save ignoring and opposing the man you believe holds the place of God on Earth, the Roman Pontiff, that should give you plenty of spare time to think about the DOGMA that requires submission to the Roman Pontiff as an absolute necessity for salvation.

    This is a self-indictment, since you yourself declare all these things, eh?
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."
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