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Author Topic: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo  (Read 20637 times)

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Offline 2Vermont

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Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
« Reply #105 on: October 19, 2020, 04:45:06 PM »
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    • Quote from: Your Friend Colin on October 18, 2020, 07:07:25 PM
    What are the other right and proper positions to take?
    Did Meg ever respond to this? 
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #106 on: October 19, 2020, 05:05:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on October 19, 2020, 04:39:32 AM
    True, yet by discrediting the OP's anonymous' source he pretty much discredited the whole story is my take.
    Yes, I see what you mean.  Having said that, I would argue that his being in the SSPX these days isn't all that different than being in the Novus Ordo Church.  So, the fakenews wasn't even necessary.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #107 on: October 19, 2020, 05:29:32 PM »
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    • Quote
    Did Meg ever respond to this?
    Of course not. 
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    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #108 on: October 19, 2020, 06:11:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on October 18, 2020, 08:42:01 PM
    Correct:

    It is a tactic borrowed from the ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs…
    Incorrect.
    It is a "tactic" of lay Catholics to acknowledge that we have NO COMPETENCE OR JURISDICTION to make dispositive pronouncements or cast anathemata on UNSETTLED matters.
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    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #109 on: October 19, 2020, 06:19:16 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on October 18, 2020, 10:35:17 PM

    https://www.sspxasia.com/Docuмents/SiSiNoNo/1999_September/The_1988_Consecrations.htm
    From whence does Fr. Novak derive his jurisdiction and/or charism of infallibility?
    Last time I checked the FSSPX charter as a priestly fraternity expired. What jurisdiction does any FSSPX priest have??
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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #110 on: October 19, 2020, 06:26:55 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on October 18, 2020, 08:47:54 PM
    Every time I post this, sedes never seem to respond.

    I wonder why that is?
    I didn't see a question in that post.
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    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #111 on: October 19, 2020, 06:31:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on October 19, 2020, 04:32:07 AM
    …yet He did not give us those gifts to use to decide the pope's status, as the pope's subjects, we do not have that right or obligation.  
    "The pope's status" is derivative of his manifest actions and statements—"automatically," "immediately," "without need for any further declaration," etc.
    We certainly have the right and obligation to judge manifest outrages against the Faith.
    We have no right or obligation to depose a Pope, but that is irrelevant because a heretic deposes himself.

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    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #112 on: October 19, 2020, 06:42:56 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on October 19, 2020, 08:25:10 AM
    Top 4 R&R views:
    1.  Ostrich R&R (i.e. Indult types) - Put your head in the sand; ignore the novus ordo insanity.  Stay "with the Church", pray for +Benedict and God will fix everything.
    .
    2.  Ostrich-lite R&R (i.e. new-sspx) - Same as above, except they wait for God to bring them back to "full communion".
    .
    3.  +ABL R&R - Recognize new-rome only to the extent necessary to debate issues.  Other than that, you ignore them because you're theologically and doctrinally unsure of if they are legit.
    .
    4.  Fr Chazal R&R - After 50 years of post-V2 information, and with the election of "Francis", we can say that new-rome is heretical and their spiritual authority is impounded, even while their material authority remains.  
    .
    #4 above is the same as sede-privationism.  It's the middle ground (not in the same sense of the "middle" of moral theology, but the moderate view in our scenario where:
    .
    1) all the facts aren't known or are disputed (i.e. how a heretical pope is handled exactly, since our circuмstances have never happened before in history) and
    2) when we have no authority to make a sure decision.  Basically, this is the common sense, prudent view of the papal problem).  
    .
    It moderates the doctrinal extremes of R&R and Sedevacantism.  It's the bridge that should connect the various Trad communities but it won't.  Too bad.  
    Thoughtful… and amusing.
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #113 on: October 19, 2020, 07:18:22 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on October 19, 2020, 05:05:12 PM
    Yes, I see what you mean.  Having said that, I would argue that his being in the SSPX these days isn't all that different than being in the Novus Ordo Church.  So, the fakenews wasn't even necessary.
    There's no difference between SSPX and the NO?

    That seems like a stretch.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #114 on: October 19, 2020, 07:44:46 PM »
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    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on October 19, 2020, 07:18:22 PM
    There's no difference between SSPX and the NO?

    That seems like a stretch.
    I said there wasn't much difference not no difference.  
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #115 on: October 19, 2020, 07:57:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on October 19, 2020, 07:44:46 PM
    I said there wasn't much difference not no difference.  
    How is that only a small difference tho?
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #116 on: October 19, 2020, 08:01:01 PM »
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    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on October 19, 2020, 07:57:12 PM
    How is that only a small difference tho?
    I see very little difference between the SSPX today and the indults (which are NO church). How are they very different to you?
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #117 on: October 19, 2020, 08:19:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on October 19, 2020, 08:01:01 PM
    I see very little difference between the SSPX today and the indults (which are NO church). How are they very different to you?
    I still see a pretty big difference between the NO and the Indult, but that aside, the SSPX would on principle say we shouldn't attend the NO mass and that the Latin Mass is the only licit Roman Mass, and would say there is errors in V2.  That seems like a big difference to me.

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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #118 on: October 19, 2020, 08:41:43 PM »
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    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on October 19, 2020, 08:19:11 PM
    I still see a pretty big difference between the NO and the Indult, but that aside, the SSPX would on principle say we shouldn't attend the NO mass and that the Latin Mass is the only licit Roman Mass, and would say there is errors in V2.  That seems like a big difference to me.

    Do they really still say that publicly?  

    Would they say publicly that one ought not attend the Pope’s Mass?

    Do they still specify and denounce the errors of Vatican 2 from the pulpit?

    I can count on (less than) one hand the number of times I have heard any such sermon since the summer of 2013.
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #119 on: October 19, 2020, 09:09:31 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on October 19, 2020, 08:41:43 PM
    Do they really still say that publicly?  

    Would they say publicly that one ought not attend the Pope’s Mass?

    Do they still specify and denounce the errors of Vatican 2 from the pulpit?

    I can count on (less than) one hand the number of times I have heard any such sermon since the summer of 2013.
    I can only speak for things I've seen in my own local SSPX parish.

    When I was still in catechesis (at the Ukrainian Rite Byzantine Catholic Church) I visited the SSPX once and I asked the priest at my local SSPX whether it was sinful to attend the NO and his answer was "if you know what's wrong with it."  He did say he wouldn't say not to attend a Motu mass though he kinda seemed to somewhat caution against it somewhat though, so maybe you'd see that as a sign of modernization.  No, I've never specifically heard a sermon against the NO, though I've only been attending there regularly since May of this year, though I'd visited a couple times prior.  I have heard at least some parishoners speaking against attendance at the NO, when the subject came up during conversations.  I don't believe I've seen Vatican II specifically addressed either.

    Still, having a formal position in opposition to V2 even if one isn't specifically bringing it up seems different than being for it.

    Furthermore, I think there's still a difference between the indult and the NO.  Yes I get that FSSPers would technically say the NO is "acceptable" but the reality is they still arent offering a mass created by a freemason as a compromise with Protestantism.  I think this stuff does matter.  And I think I can say it matters without saying their position is ideal.
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