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Author Topic: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo  (Read 20827 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
« Reply #90 on: October 19, 2020, 08:59:14 AM »
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    • No, the problem isn't in the specifics of how to resolve the Pope issue.  Bellarmine vs. Cajetan, etc.

    What's at issue here is the nature of the Church and the relationship between the Magisterium and the faithful.

    If one gets that part right, lands in a Catholic place, the details about how to this Crisis resolves theologically can vary.

    What I have issues with are the types of issues posted by "Your Friend Colin":
    Quote
    R&Rs think it is acceptable to denounce their church’s
    1) ecuмenical councils
    2) universal liturgy
    3) Sacraments
    4) theology
    5) canonizations
    6) canon law
    And basically anything YOU don’t like.

    I am no dogmatic sedevacantist, but I am a dogmatic indefectibilist.  What some articulations of R&R propose are tantamount to a defection of the Church.

    When ALL of the above, namely, the Magisterium, the Mass, the Sacraments, theology, canonizations, and Canon Law can all go corrupt and become unacceptable as a whole to the Catholic conscience, to posit that these things can have emanated from legitimate authority, well, there's nothing left of the Church.  To believe that these things can go corrupt is to make oneself no different that Old Catholics, Protestants, and every manner of heretic.  There are several condemned propositions saying these exact things.

    Father Chazal's position, that these men have lost authority due to manifest heresy, and are "impounded" and "quarantined" and have "no authority," while they remain in possession of the office awaiting removal by the Church, i.e. a Cajetan- and John of St. Thomas- like position, there's no issue with that whatsoever.  In fact, his is a compelling Catholic position.  Archbishop Lefebvre's position is very similar.  +Lefebvre conceded (in a video posted by Father Ringrose as he was going sedevacantist), that these things cannot possibly happen due to the Church's protection by the Holy Spirit.  He then speculates about various possible reasons all this could have happend:  Paul VI being unfree to act (insane, blackmailed, replaced by a double) ... which he dismisses as unrealistic, and also the sedevacantist hypothesis, which he repeatedly declared to be "possible" ... but all the while deferring to the authority of the Church to "one day" resolve the matter.  He very nearly pulled the trigger on sedevacantism, for these reasons, but "prefer to wait."
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #91 on: October 19, 2020, 09:11:05 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on October 19, 2020, 08:59:14 AM
    No, the problem isn't in the specifics of how to resolve the Pope issue.  Bellarmine vs. Cajetan, etc.

    What's at issue here is the nature of the Church and the relationship between the Magisterium and the faithful.

    If one gets that part right, lands in a Catholic place, the details about how to this Crisis resolves theologically can vary.

    What I have issues with are the types of issues posted by "Your Friend Colin":
    I am no dogmatic sedevacantist, but I am a dogmatic indefectibilist.  What some articulations of R&R propose are tantamount to a defection of the Church.

    When ALL of the above, namely, the Magisterium, the Mass, the Sacraments, theology, canonizations, and Canon Law can all go corrupt and become unacceptable as a whole to the Catholic conscience, to posit that these things can have emanated from legitimate authority, well, there's nothing left of the Church.  To believe that these things can go corrupt is to make oneself no different that Old Catholics, Protestants, and every manner of heretic.
    Obviously you and Colin hit the nail on the head. For years and years the sedevacantist position was put on the defensive. Those of us who hold the position have constantly been made to defend our position and all of the objections have satisfactorily been answered over and over and over. I believe it’s way past the time for the R&R crowd to give satisfactory answers to the questions posted above.
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Matto

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #92 on: October 19, 2020, 09:42:24 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on October 18, 2020, 11:20:37 PM
    You three are, objectively speaking, heretics.  Hopefully God has mercy on you due to the Crisis in the Church ... but you are well on the way to losing the faith.
    You are calling them heretics, but most of the people who would agree with that statement think you yourself are also a heretic for being a Feeneyite who condemns NFP. Because Pope Pius XII said . . .
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #93 on: October 19, 2020, 09:49:05 AM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on October 19, 2020, 09:11:05 AM
    Obviously you and Colin hit the nail on the head. For years and years the sedevacantist position was put on the defensive. Those of us who hold the position have constantly been made to defend our position and all of the objections have satisfactorily been answered over and over and over. I believe it’s way past the time for the R&R crowd to give satisfactory answers to the questions posted above.
    Negative re: "all of the objections have satisfactorily been answered over and over and over." Most, like 99% of all questions asked to sedes are ignored and go unanswered. It is to the point that there is no use in asking a sede to answer a direct question because they mostly never or only rarely answer.  

    As to Colin's statement, that is how only sedes view the situation, but they are wrong.
    Quote
    R&Rs think it is acceptable to denounce their church’s - R&R DENOUNCE NOTHING THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TEACHES.
    1) ecuмenical councils - THIS IS A BLATANTLY FALSE ACCUSATION
    2) universal liturgy - UNIVERSAL LITURGY? THERE IS NO SUCH THING.
    3) Sacraments - DOUBTFUL = AVOID
    4) theology - NOVUS ORDO THEOLOGY IS HERETICAL
    5) canonizations - NOVUS ORDO CANONIZATIONS ARE DOUBTFUL
    6) canon law - NOVUS ORDO LAWS THAT HARM ARE NOT BINDING  
    And basically anything YOU don’t like. - YES, R&R DENOUNCE EVERYTHING NOT CATHOLIC
    If sedes actually were true to their belief, they would follow the pope since "he is infallibly safe to follow", "all councils are infallible" and "the pope cannot teach anything mortally harmful to souls, only small mistakes."
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    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #94 on: October 19, 2020, 10:00:45 AM »
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    • Quote from: Matto on October 19, 2020, 09:42:24 AM
    You are calling them heretics, but most of the people who would agree with that statement think you yourself are also a heretic for being a Feeneyite who condemns NFP. Because Pope Pius XII said . . .

    No, "most of them" do not.  It's actually the dogmatic sedevacantists who would take this position because they exaggerate the authority of various lower-level Church docuмents, an allocution of Pius XII and a dubious letter from Pius XII to Cardinal Cushing that never appeared in any Vatican publication.
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    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #95 on: October 19, 2020, 10:28:04 AM »
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    • Quote
    I believe it’s way past the time for the R&R crowd to give satisfactory answers to the questions posted above.

    Quo Vadis, you are missing the point.  You agree with Ladislaus and he agrees with Sede-privationism.  But Ladislaus also agrees with Fr Chazal's version of R&R.
    .
    The point being, if we all put aside "labels" and quit arguing from a "my camp" vs "your camp" mentality, and instead argue based on principles, then many of us would agree on many things.  But different labels mean different things to different people, thus labels get in the way of intellectual truth.
    .
    In many ways (this is a partial joke), we need a V2-type of "ecuмenical dialogue" between Sedes and R&R.  Putting aside long-standing definitions, labels, dogmatic thinking, and misconceptions - let's talk see what we agree on.  I'll bet it would be a lot.
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    Offline Tradman

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #96 on: October 19, 2020, 11:11:25 AM »
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    • While continuing to study all the arguments surrounding various positions within the trad world, I find Archbishop Vigano's assessment regarding the pope the one I can deal with on more levels than any other.  Here's his argument:



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    Offline Meg

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #97 on: October 19, 2020, 11:51:21 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on October 19, 2020, 06:26:33 AM
    Oh, I give them a lot of slack and will not accuse them of formal heresy for that reason, but it’s time to stop mincing words.  Their articulation of R&R is heretical and makes them little different objectively than, say, Old Catholics, minus official Church condemnation.  Not every articulation of R&R is heretical, and +Lefebvre’s was not, but many are.

    Fr. Chazal has given them a lifeline, to pull them out of this, and they need to take it.  If you carefully analyze +Lefebvre, you’ll see that his position lines up closely with Fr. Chazal’s.

    Who cares if you accuse someone of heresy (formal or otherwise). Your opinion is not worth more than anyone else's opinion.

    Why do you believe that you are so special? I'd really like to know. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #98 on: October 19, 2020, 12:04:59 PM »
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    • I think +Vigano's analogy of Noah is good, but overall, his arguments are made to those in the novus ordo, by encouraging them to "stay with Tradition" and to receive communion on the tongue.  I also appreciate his correct expression of "sacrilegious abuses" when speaking of liturgical evils, instead of the incorrect use of "abuse", which denotes a "mistake" or simply an "excess", which minimizes the evils of the new liturgy.
    .
    All in all, I enjoy +Vigano's comments but they don't apply to the Trad debate over Sede vs R&R.
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    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #99 on: October 19, 2020, 12:06:23 PM »
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    • Quote
    Why do you believe that you are so special?

    We're all special snowflakes, Meg.  God loves everyone, even Sedes.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #100 on: October 19, 2020, 12:21:10 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on October 19, 2020, 12:06:23 PM
    We're all special snowflakes, Meg.  God loves everyone, even Sedes.

    Well, it would appear that some snowflakes are far, far more special than others. At least in their own mind.

    I'd like to know why.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Matto

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #101 on: October 19, 2020, 12:27:25 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on October 19, 2020, 10:00:45 AM
    No, "most of them" do not.  It's actually the dogmatic sedevacantists who would take this position because they exaggerate the authority of various lower-level Church docuмents, an allocution of Pius XII and a dubious letter from Pius XII to Cardinal Cushing that never appeared in any Vatican publication.
    Do you truly believe this? I am surprised. I ask because in my experience, and I know you have more experience in this than I do, there are two common types of sedes. Those who follow the Dimond brothers, and those who think Feeneyism is a heresy, with the latter being more common. I have not heard as much discussion on the NFP issue, but when it arises the accusations of schism sometimes come.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #102 on: October 19, 2020, 12:41:29 PM »
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    • Quote from: Matto on October 19, 2020, 12:27:25 PM
    Do you truly believe this? I am surprised. I ask because in my experience, and I know you have more experience in this than I do, there are two common types of sedes. Those who follow the Dimond brothers, and those who think Feeneyism is a heresy, with the latter being more common. I have not heard as much discussion on the NFP issue, but when it arises the accusations of schism sometimes come.

    That's been my experience.  Apart from the Dimonds, one of the things that the dogmatic sedevacantists hold in common is an exaggeration of the scope of infallible Church teaching.  Many of them effectively give an obviously-speculative speech to midwives the same weight of authority as a solemn dogmatic declaration.  Then there was that alleged letter from Pius XII Suprema Haec ... which only Cardinal Cushing seemd to have a copy of, since it was never published by any Vatican publishing organ.

    In their battles with R&R, many dogmatic SVs swung too far in the opposite direction on the argument over infallibility ... since R&R limit it far too much.  For both groups, however, this debate is about the wrong topic, not infallibility per se but about indefectibility.  R&R limited infallibility so much that, in their view, it's possible for the 99.9% of Catholic teaching that hasn't been solemnly defined to be entirely corrupt ... there's nothing to stop it in their minds.  SVs then responded by exaggerating its scope.  Both are missing that the fact that this is a question of indefectibility, and not of infallibility in the strict sense.
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    Offline Tradman

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #103 on: October 19, 2020, 01:12:32 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on October 19, 2020, 12:04:59 PM
    I think +Vigano's analogy of Noah is good, but overall, his arguments are made to those in the novus ordo, by encouraging them to "stay with Tradition" and to receive communion on the tongue.  I also appreciate his correct expression of "sacrilegious abuses" when speaking of liturgical evils, instead of the incorrect use of "abuse", which denotes a "mistake" or simply an "excess", which minimizes the evils of the new liturgy.
    .
    All in all, I enjoy +Vigano's comments but they don't apply to the Trad debate over Sede vs R&R.
    Seems it was a good thing Vigano appealed to the Novus Ordo crowd as "trads" are already attending TLM, and anything that appeals to NO's and gets them to step over the line into Tradition can't be bad. Not sure why Vigano's assessment doesn't apply to the trad debate over Sede vs R&R. It may not delineate between finer arguments, but then, he just about shuts down the bleed of people into the camp of those who excessively anathematize. Vigano speaks to the average Catholic joe, unable to pile through tomes of opinion, helping them deal with Francis' manipulations without risking an unproven position or just giving up entirely.  I suppose that kind of leaves things in R&R territory, but until the Holy Spirit revives the faith in the laity, how bad can that be?       
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    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #104 on: October 19, 2020, 01:47:19 PM »
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    • Quote
    Not sure why Vigano's assessment doesn't apply to the trad debate over Sede vs R&R.

    Because that particular video is directed at novus ordo/indult catholics, all of whom are some version of R&R.
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