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Author Topic: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo  (Read 20641 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
« Reply #75 on: October 18, 2020, 11:20:37 PM »
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  • Every time I post this, sedes never seem to respond.

    I wonder why that is?

    Nobody’s even reading that crap.  You spam a 25-page article into a forum thread and demand a point-by-point rebuttal.  Not sure what you’re smoking.  This is the same tactic that other intellectually bankrupt poster Lover of Truth tried to use.  It smells of desperation coming from schismatic/heretics such as yourself, Stubborn, and Meg.

    Your position regarding the nature of the Church is heretical.  I’m not going to mince any words here.  You three are, objectively speaking, heretics.  Hopefully God has mercy on you due to the Crisis in the Church ... but you are well on the way to losing the faith.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #76 on: October 18, 2020, 11:29:44 PM »
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  • Terrible analogy.
    Sean, as I said, in practice, R&R’s do the EXACT same things sedes do. For some reason you have decided to draw the line at the question of the Pope as going too far (why?).
    R&Rs think it is acceptable to denounce their church’s
    1) ecuмenical councils
    2) universal liturgy
    3) Sacraments
    4) theology
    5) canonizations
    6) canon law
    And basically anything YOU don’t like.
    But when someone asks how a false religion can come from the authority of Christ, you go berserk.
    You’ve made plenty of your own “private judgments”, Sean.

    Yes, it’s time to call them out for what they are ... heretics.  I’ve called Stubborn out before, but Sean must be added to this list.  Now, with Meg it’s harder to say since she’s never posted anything resembling a rational thought on the subject ... or any subject really.  Oh, I forgot about Pax.  He’s a heretic also.

    Look, nobody says you have to be sedevacantists.  But you must at least embrace a Catholic articulation of the Crisis such as can be found with Fr. Chazal.  Since you are Resistance supporters, why don’t you get behind him and abandon your heresies?


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #77 on: October 18, 2020, 11:44:54 PM »
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  • Wow, this thread has gone bananas.
    .
    I would only make the observation of the hypocrisy of many sedes, (but such hypocrisy also exists in the R&R camp too) who, seeing the problems of their theory, have rightly explored many variants in order to solve such problems, with each variant having a different name (sede-privationist, ecclesiatia-vacant, etc).
    .
    Meanwhile, they view R&R as being 1, large, generic view, and offer it none of the same variant possibilities or equal ability to evolve.  
    .
    The fact is, sede-privationism is just a form of R&R.  But people don’t want to agree on similarities but allow themselves to disagree over trivialities due to emotion and pride.  Sad.  If more Catholics would seek the truth instead of defending a clan, we'd have more peace amongst us.  But human nature is what it is, so I won’t hold my breath. 

    Offline AJNC

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #78 on: October 19, 2020, 02:51:40 AM »
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  • I know of multiple Trad families, all of whom have 12+ children, who were Trad-raised from the 70s, who have access to various priests (Independent, SSPX and Sede chapels)...but who have recently gone indult.  
    .
    I don't understand the confusion among these people, but the more stories you hear, this is not an isolated incident.  So many people are losing their minds (and maybe their souls).
    Maybe it's because of the priests? Church Militant has a section devoted to them. Or it could be that they want out of cultish/quarrelsome groups and can satisfy their Traditional inclinations within the existential Church? Or. Could they be Biden supporters?

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #79 on: October 19, 2020, 04:32:07 AM »
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  • For the life of me, I do not understand how any practicing Catholic can ask men to blind themselves to manifest facts.

    There is NOTHING in Catholicism that binds us to accepting the satanic insanity that "A" and " not A" are the same.

    In fact, the quintessential characteristic of modern[ist] man is to hold both "A" and "not A" as true.

    God gave us eyes, ears, brains, and the graces and gifts to use them, NOT eschew them, in His service now and forever.
    The point is, while certainly true that, as you say, "God gave us eyes, ears, brains, and the graces and gifts to use them, NOT eschew them, in His service now and forever" - this is how we know the conciliar popes have all been modernist heretics, yet He did not give us those gifts to use to decide the pope's status, as the pope's subjects, we do not have that right or obligation.   
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #80 on: October 19, 2020, 04:39:32 AM »
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  • You're welcome.  

    Unfortunately, we still don't know whether he's "returned to the Novus Ordo".  We all know that returning to the indult/diocesan TLM is still returning to the Novus Ordo.  So, the mere fact that he states that he went to a SSPX priest for confession (who was given such faculties by the Novus Ordo pope) and doesn't attend the Novus Ordo service doesn't mean he *hasn't* returned to the Novus Ordo.

    Typical lawyer answer.
    True, yet by disrediting the OP's anonymous' source he pretty much discredited the whole story is my take.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #81 on: October 19, 2020, 04:44:42 AM »
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  • I'm not sede personally, but my guess would be the huge font, as well as lack of indentation and proper spacing between paragraphs. As one gets older it is very difficult to read. Even with progressive lenses.

     
    Yes, this Sean, this.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #82 on: October 19, 2020, 05:15:34 AM »
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  • You've got that backwards.  Vatican 2 is the novelty, the sede position of today is the application of tradition and doctrine.
    No, this is definitely not true. St. Vincent of Lerins is the author of the "Vincentian Canon", AD 434, this is "the threefold test of Catholicity laid down by St Vincent of Lérins, namely ‘what has been believed everywhere, always, and by all’. By this triple test of ecuмenicity, antiquity, and consent, the Church is to differentiate between true and false tradition".  


    Speaking about Liberalism in one of his sermons, Fr. Wathen sums up the Vincentian Canon, which is also applicable to sedeism....

    "One of the saints, [St. Vincent of Lerins (died 445)]... made a statement concerning heresy and orthodoxy which I find both wonderfully intriguing as well as important.

    He says that the true faith is that which has been believed by all the people all the time. [He is] speaking about all the faithful, all those who are in the Church, which is to say that any idea that has *not* been held as a part of Catholic doctrine through all the generations of the Church by the vast majority of the people, is not Catholic.

    Which is to say that at any given time an idea can be widely held even by the vast majority of the people as is liberalism among Catholics today.  Also a heretical idea can be shown to have been held by a small group within the Church all through history or during a number of generations of history. But the true doctrine of the Church is that which has been held always by everyone".

    According to St. Vincent of Lerins' Canon, sedeism being an "idea that has *not* been held as a part of Catholic doctrine through all the generations of the Church by the vast majority of the people, is not Catholic."



    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #83 on: October 19, 2020, 05:55:15 AM »
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  • Yes, it’s time to call them out for what they are ... heretics.  I’ve called Stubborn out before, but Sean must be added to this list.  Now, with Meg it’s harder to say since she’s never posted anything resembling a rational thought on the subject ... or any subject really.  Oh, I forgot about Pax.  He’s a heretic also.

    Look, nobody says you have to be sedevacantists.  But you must at least embrace a Catholic articulation of the Crisis such as can be found with Fr. Chazal.  Since you are Resistance supporters, why don’t you get behind him and abandon your heresies?


    Although I agree with much of what you are saying, we MUST give R&R people a lot of slack. The confusion is so great and the lack of recourse to authority must make you pause and be PATIENT. I admit that I used to get extremely impatient with them, but I believe God has some reason for allowing them to block their reasoning abilities when it comes to this subject. Also, many of them have for years (and in some cases their whole life) been thoroughly imbued with the a priori belief that sedevacantism is wrong and evil. They simply can’t jump over that hurdle. It's a stumbling block.


    About 20 years ago I met Father DeLallo and our conversation was very pleasant until I mentioned that Father Collins was a friend of mine. Boy, was that a mistake! His tone changed immediately and the first thing out of his mouth was: ‘Those 9 sedevacantist priests.....I knew what they were up to’. We debated for over an hour and he wouldn’t give me his blessing until I kept repeating (probably about 10 times): “JPII is a Catholic, but I'm not, right?“
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #84 on: October 19, 2020, 06:26:33 AM »
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  • Oh, I give them a lot of slack and will not accuse them of formal heresy for that reason, but it’s time to stop mincing words.  Their articulation of R&R is heretical and makes them little different objectively than, say, Old Catholics, minus official Church condemnation.  Not every articulation of R&R is heretical, and +Lefebvre’s was not, but many are.

    Fr. Chazal has given them a lifeline, to pull them out of this, and they need to take it.  If you carefully analyze +Lefebvre, you’ll see that his position lines up closely with Fr. Chazal’s.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #85 on: October 19, 2020, 06:48:38 AM »
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  • Nobody’s even reading that crap.  You spam a 25-page article into a forum thread and demand a point-by-point rebuttal.  Not sure what you’re smoking.  This is the same tactic that other intellectually bankrupt poster Lover of Truth tried to use.  It smells of desperation coming from schismatic/heretics such as yourself, Stubborn, and Meg.

    Your position regarding the nature of the Church is heretical.  I’m not going to mince any words here.  You three are, objectively speaking, heretics.  Hopefully God has mercy on you due to the Crisis in the Church ... but you are well on the way to losing the faith.
    ...says the heretical schismatic.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #86 on: October 19, 2020, 06:49:08 AM »
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  • Yes, this Sean, this.
    Nope: There's a link, Stubborn.  A link.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #87 on: October 19, 2020, 08:13:49 AM »
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  • Quote
    Maybe it's because of the priests? Church Militant has a section devoted to them. Or it could be that they want out of cultish/quarrelsome groups and can satisfy their Traditional inclinations within the existential Church? Or. Could they be Biden supporters?

    In the particular cases that I'm talking about, it's none of the 3 things you mentioned above.  My personal opinion is that it goes back to the normal issues:  1) peer pressure, or wanting to be part of the "in crowd" of "normal" catholics.  Tired of being different, etc.  2) marriage/dating issues, for lack of Trad opportunities (...this doesn't apply here, since the parents are 50+ and still married and most of the children married Trads).  3) Temptations of despair, anger, apathy with the situation in the Church; tired of being Trad and fighting for the Faith.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #88 on: October 19, 2020, 08:25:10 AM »
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    Not every articulation of R&R is heretical, and +Lefebvre’s was not, but many are.

    Fr. Chazal has given them a lifeline, to pull them out of this, and they need to take it.  If you carefully analyze +Lefebvre, you’ll see that his position lines up closely with Fr. Chazal’s.

    Top 4 R&R views:
    1.  Ostrich R&R (i.e. Indult types) - Put your head in the sand; ignore the novus ordo insanity.  Stay "with the Church", pray for +Benedict and God will fix everything.
    .
    2.  Ostrich-lite R&R (i.e. new-sspx) - Same as above, except they wait for God to bring them back to "full communion".
    .
    3.  +ABL R&R - Recognize new-rome only to the extent necessary to debate issues.  Other than that, you ignore them because you're theologically and doctrinally unsure of if they are legit.
    .
    4.  Fr Chazal R&R - After 50 years of post-V2 information, and with the election of "Francis", we can say that new-rome is heretical and their spiritual authority is impounded, even while their material authority remains.  
    .
    #4 above is the same as sede-privationism.  It's the middle ground (not in the same sense of the "middle" of moral theology, but the moderate view in our scenario where:
    .
    1) all the facts aren't known or are disputed (i.e. how a heretical pope is handled exactly, since our circuмstances have never happened before in history) and
    2) when we have no authority to make a sure decision.  Basically, this is the common sense, prudent view of the papal problem). 
    .
    It moderates the doctrinal extremes of R&R and Sedevacantism.  It's the bridge that should connect the various Trad communities but it won't.  Too bad.  

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #89 on: October 19, 2020, 08:45:53 AM »
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    I believe this is quite true for your average lay Traditional Catholic ... but not for a Salza and not for most priests.  I myself went through the same process in seminary that many priests and seminarians did.  You start off as a Traditional Catholic mostly by recognizing how contrary Conciliar Catholicism is to Tradition.  You tend not to go too deep into it.  Stubborn is still at this phase.  But then you start studying Traditional Catholic theology, in particular ecclesiology, and it hits you in the face how contrary to Tradition R&R really is.  Then you’re faced with a choice to resolve this somehow.
    The problem is, it's un-resolveable.  And, no offense, the typical seminary training isn't designed to afford anyone the time or experience necessary to do so.  The crisis in the Church is only solvable by the Church itself (i.e. Christ through the papacy).  No degree of theological or doctrinal genius, (even if St Thomas, St Alphonsus and St Augustine were resurrected together) can "think" of the solution.  The problem is spiritual, so the solution is spiritual.
    .

    Quote
    Those who did not experience such an intellectual process were, quite frankly, either somewhat dull-witted, or just didn’t care much about “theology”, writing it off as irrelevant compared to learning how to say Mass or give sermons or hear Confessions.  You’ll notice that sedevacantists tend to be the brightest seminarians and priests.

    Some of the greatest saints we've ever had were "dull-witted".  Pope St Pius X wasn't some theological expert.  
    .
    I get the point you're making, by saying that some personalities are just not intellectually bent.  I get it.  But there's also a spiritual simplicity that comes with holiness (not saying that intellectual people can't be holy) and on some level, it's not wrong to say "I can't fix this crisis, so i'm just going to concentrate on the "basics" of catholicism and let God figure it out."  
    .
    To take Fr Chekada as an example (May God rest his soul).  He was obviously very smart, but his analysis led him to basically write off 95% of Tradition as heretical (similar to the Diamond brothers).  There are many examples just in the last 50 years of super-intelligent people coming to wrong conclusions.  
    .
    Getting back to Salza...it can be argued that he left Tradition for "theological reasons" but emotion still plays a part and it's our emotions that the devil uses to attack us through the world and the flesh.  So while Salza was very bright, I don't buy that his decision wasn't influenced by society, flesh or demonic/pride temptations.  Until he writes some "magnus opus" about how R&R is correct, i'll just assume he left Tradition for some family/emotional reason, like most of us are tempted to.