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Author Topic: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo  (Read 13642 times)

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Offline Meg

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Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
« Reply #60 on: October 18, 2020, 07:04:18 PM »
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  • You've got that backwards.  Vatican 2 is the novelty, the sede position of today is the application of tradition and doctrine.

    Nope. The sede position is most definitely a novelty born of Vatican ll, and always will be. There's no getting around that. Not now, not ever. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline Your Friend Colin

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #61 on: October 18, 2020, 07:07:25 PM »
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  • The Resistance does not believe itself to be the ONLY right and proper position to take... Sedevacantists (and sedeprivationists) do believe that their position is the ONLY Catholic position to take. No other position can ever be thought of as Catholic, in their (your) view, isn't that correct?
    What are the other right and proper positions to take?


    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #62 on: October 18, 2020, 07:52:05 PM »
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  • Nope. The sede position is most definitely a novelty born of Vatican ll, and always will be. There's no getting around that. Not now, not ever.

    Hmmmm… Such genius, Meg… St. Robert Bellarmine… born after "Vatican 2"?  He wrote about heretical popes automatically deposing themselves because he was an adept of "Vatican 2"?

    All these too are creatures and docuмents of "Vatican 2."

    Pope Paul IV, cuм ex Apostolatus Officio, Feb. 15, 1559, §6 (Roman Bullarium Vol. IV. Sec. I, pp. 354-357):
    “In addition, that if ever at any time it shall appear that any… Cardinal of the aforesaid Roman Church… or even the Roman Pontiff, prior to his promotion or his elevation as Cardinal or Roman Pontiff, has deviated from the Catholic Faith or fallen into some heresy: (i) the promotion or elevation, even if it shall have been uncontested and by the unanimous assent of all the Cardinals, shall be null, void and worthless…those thus promoted or elevated shall be deprived automatically, and without need for any further declaration, of all dignity, position, honour, title, authority, office and power.”

    Pope Innocent III:
    “The Pope should not flatter himself about his power nor should he rashly glory in his honor and high estate, because the less he is judged by man, the more he is judged by God. Still the less can the Roman Pontiff glory because he can be judged by men, or rather, can be shown to be already judged, if for example he should wither away into heresy; because he who does not believe is already judged, In such a case it should be said of him: ‘If salt should lose its savor, it is good for nothing but to be cast out and trampled under foot by men.’”

    St. Alphonsus Liguori:
    “If ever a Pope, as a private person, should fall into heresy, he should at once fall from the Pontificate. If, however, God were to permit a pope to become a notorious and contumacious heretic, he would by such fact cease to be pope, and the apostolic chair would be vacant.”

    St. Francis de Sales:
    “Now when the Pope is explicitly a heretic, he falls ipso facto from his dignity and out of the Church . . . ”

    St. Antoninus:
    “In the case in which the Pope would become a heretic, he would find himself, by that very fact alone and without any other sentence, separated from the Church. A head separated from a body cannot, as long as it remains separated, be head of the same body from which it was cut off.”

    Pope Innocent III, Si Papa, 1198
    “The Pope should not flatter himself about his power nor should he rashly glory in his honor and high estate, because the less he is judged by man, the more he is judged by God. Still the less can the Roman Pontiff glory because he can be judged by men, or rather, can be shown to be already judged, if for example he should wither away into heresy; because he who does not believe is already judged. In such a case it should be said of him: 'If salt should lose its savor, it is good for nothing but to be cast out and trampled under foot by men.’”

    Billot, De Ecclesia, 1927:
    “Given, therefore, the hypothesis of a pope who would become notoriously heretical, one must concede without hesitation that he would by that very fact lose the pontifical power, insofar as, having become an unbeliever, he would by his own will be cast outside the body of the Church.”

    Wernz-Vidal, Canon Law, 1943:
    “Through heresy notoriously and openly expressed, the Roman Pontiff, should he fall into such, is, by that very fact, and before any declaratory sentence of the Church, deprived of his power of jurisdiction.... a pope who falls into public heresy would by that fact cease to be a member of the Church; therefore he would also, upon that fact, cease to be the head of Church.…”

    A. Vermeersch, Epitome Iuris Canonici, 1949:
    “At least according to the more common teaching; the Roman Pontiff as a private teacher can fall into manifest heresy. Then, without any declaratory sentence (for the Supreme See is judged by no one), he would automatically (ipso facto) fall from power which he who is no longer a member of the Church is unable to possess.”

    Coronata, Institutiones Iuris Canonici, 1950:
    “It cannot be proven however that the Roman Pontiff, as a private teacher, cannot become a heretic —If indeed such a situation would happen, he [the Roman Pontiff] would, by divine law, fall from office without any sentence, indeed, without even a declaratory one. He who openly professes heresy places himself outside the Church, and it is not likely that Christ would preserve the Primacy of His Church in one so unworthy. Wherefore, if the Roman Pontiff were to profess heresy, before any condemnatory sentence (which would be impossible anyway) he would lose his authority.”

    Edward F. Regatillo, Institutiones Iuris Canonici, 1956:
    “‘The pope loses office ipso facto because of public heresy.’ This is the more common teaching, because a pope would not be a member of the Church, and hence far less could he be its head.”

    Marato, Institutiones Iuris Canonici, 1921:
    “Heretics and schismatics are barred from the Supreme Pontificate by the Divine Law itself, because, although by divine law they are not considered incapable of participating in a certain type of ecclesiastical jurisdiction, nevertheless, they must certainly be regarded as excluded from occupying the throne of the Apostolic See, which is the infallible teacher of the truth of the faith and the center of ecclesiastical unity.”

    Baldii, Institutiones Iuris Canonici, 1921:
    “The law now in force for the election of the Roman Pontiff is reduced to these points:...Barred as incapable of being validly elected are the following: women, children who have not reached the age of reason, those suffering from habitual insanity, the unbaptized, heretics and schismatics....”

    Wrenn, CLSA NEW COMM (2001) at 1618:
    “Canon 1404 is not a statement of personal impeccability or inerrancy of the Holy Father. Should, indeed, the pope fall into heresy, it is understood that he would lose his office. To fall from Peter’s faith is to fall from his chair.”

    Udalricus Beste, Introductio in Codicem, 1946
    “Not a few canonists teach that, outside of death and abdication, the pontifical dignity can also be lost by falling into certain insanity, which is legally equivalent to death, as well as through manifest and notorious heresy. In the latter case, a pope would automatically fall from his power, and this indeed without the issuance of any sentence, for the first See (i.e., the See of Peter) is judged by no one ... The reason is that, by falling into heresy, the pope ceases to be a member of the Church. He who is not a member of a society, obviously, cannot be its head.”

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #63 on: October 18, 2020, 07:58:23 PM »
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  • …Sedevacantists (and sedeprivationists) do believe that their position is the ONLY Catholic position to take.…
    Utter manure.
    I am a sedevacantist. I do NOT believe it is the "only" Catholic position to take.
    As usual, you are wrong.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #64 on: October 18, 2020, 08:00:06 PM »
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  • At preset, there are 9 members logged in, of whom 6 (and possibly 7) are sedes.

    If I troll them a bit more, that number will increase, and they will be drawn from their covert, exposing their long-time predominance on this sede forum.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #65 on: October 18, 2020, 08:05:04 PM »
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  • At preset, there are 9 members logged in, of whom 6 (and possibly 7) are sedes.

    If I troll them a bit more, that number will increase, and they will be drawn from their covert, exposing their long-time predominance on this sede forum.
    So, only 2 of 7 members logged in use hysterical and illogical arguments to attack sedevacantism.

    Offline Pete Vere

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #66 on: October 18, 2020, 08:07:41 PM »
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  • Utter manure.
    I am a sedevacantist. I do NOT believe it is the "only" Catholic position to take.
    As usual, you are wrong.

    I am NOT sedevacantist. Or sedeprivationist. Or SedeBenedictPlenist. 

    Yet my experience with the aforementioned is pretty much what you say. Most sedes I know, regardless of the variety, do not take a hardline position that theirs is the only acceptable position for a traditional Catholic to take. 

    Not even the recently-deceased Fr Anthony Cekada, who I use to correspond with from time-to-time and who very kindly invited me into his rectory for tea, sandwiches, and cookies the first time I visited Cincinatti.  

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #67 on: October 18, 2020, 08:42:01 PM »
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  • I am NOT sedevacantist. Or sedeprivationist. Or SedeBenedictPlenist.

    Yet my experience with the aforementioned is pretty much what you say. Most sedes I know, regardless of the variety, do not take a hardline position that theirs is the only acceptable position for a traditional Catholic to take.

    Not even the recently-deceased Fr Anthony Cekada, who I use to correspond with from time-to-time and who very kindly invited me into his rectory for tea, sandwiches, and cookies the first time I visited Cincinatti.  

    Correct:

    It is a tactic borrowed from the ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs, as I noted in this article: https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/non-una-cuм-and-the-resistance/

    First, plea for tolerance, and bemoan the "irrational" "witch hunts."

    Then once you get tolerance, show a bit more of their  schismatic true colors.

    PS to Pete: You realize Fr. Cekada banned all from attending una cuм Masses, right?  Which more or less means your post is baloney.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #68 on: October 18, 2020, 08:47:54 PM »
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  • NONSENSE^^^

    THIS>>> https://www.sspxasia.com/Docuмents/SiSiNoNo/1999_September/The_1988_Consecrations.htm


    This issue of the Angelus English-Language edition of SISINONO is the second part of a series of two studies - one theological and one canonical - regarding the "state of necessity" invoked by Archbishop Lefebvre to justify his consecration of four bishops on June 30, 1988. These remarks are for those who admit the existence of an extraordinary crisis in the Catholic Church but do not know how to justify the extraordinary action of Archbishop Lefebvre on June 30, 1988 when, lacking permission from Pope John Paul II, he transmitted the power of episcopal orders to members of the Fraternity founded by him.

    THEOLOGICAL STUDY – PART II.
    SOLUTION OF THE PROBLEM POSED BY THE POPE’S “NO”

    A.     The Pope's "No"
    We saw in the first installment of this article (SISINONO, "The 1988 Consecrations: Part I," The Angelus, July 1999) that a bishop who experiences a state of grave general necessity of souls and consecrates another bishop "given that he has the power of Order" (St. Thomas Aquinas, Supplement, Q.20, A.1, op.cit. in, "The 1988 Consecrations: Part 1") is not questioning the primacy of jurisdiction of the pope. We have seen that he has every right to presume support for such an act required by extraordinary circuмstances "in order that adequate provision be made" (ST, op. cit. in Part 1) for the salvation of souls and for the common good. The salvation of souls is in fact the supreme law of the Church and it is certain that the Church "supplies" the jurisdiction lacking whenever it is a question of providing for the "public and general necessity of the faithful" (F.M. Cappello, SJ ., Summa Juris Canonici, vol. I, p.258, n.258, §2, op. cit. in Part 1).
    It makes no difference to what we have just said if recourse to the pope is made materially impossible by external circuмstances, as in the historical cases recalled by us [in Part 1].
    But it is the pope himself who is favoring or promoting a course for the Church infected by neo-Modernism which threatens the goods fundamental to souls, goods indispensable for the salvation of souls, e.g., faith and morals. If the pope himself is the cause or partial-cause, and even, given his supreme authority, the ultimate cause of the grave and general spiritual necessity in which there is no hope of help from the lawful pastors, then what effect will recourse to the pope obtain in such circuмstances? He will be physically accessible, but morally inaccessible. Recourse to him will be certainly physically possible but morally impossible, and if it be attempted, it will result naturally in the pope's saying "No" to the act which the extraordinary circuмstances require "in order that adequate provision be made" (ST, op. cit. in Part 1) for the grave general necessity of souls. Any different behavior on the part of the pope presupposes, in fact, repentance and a humble admission of his own responsibility given that the act in question - i.e., the consecration of bishops -would not be required if the pope himself was not in some measure co-responsible for the state of grave and general necessity.
    Therefore, it remains for us to ask if the subject in such circuмstances is bound to obey the "No" of the pope despite the harm threatening so many souls. In other words, does the "No" of the pope exonerate him from the duty under pain of mortal sin imposed by divine law upon whomever has the possibility to provide help for souls in the state of grave and general necessity where there is no hope of help from lawful pastors? This is the question that finds its answer in the Catholic doctrine on the state of necessity. This will become clear as we explain the fourth, fifth, sixth, and seventh principles of the Church's teaching on this point. [The first, second, and third principles were discussed in Part l-Ed.]

    1. 4th Principle: In necessity the duty to help is independent of the cause of the necessity and hence is binding be it the superior himself who is placing souls in the state of necessity
    In the state of necessity the duty to provide help arises independently of the cause of that necessity, because "charity does not look where the necessity comes from, but is only interested in the fact that there is necessity."1 Thus, in the example we gave above in the sphere of natural law, the wife has the duty to supply for her husband even if it be the husband himself who is placing the family in the state of necessity (SiSiNoNo, "The 1988 consecrations: Part 1," p.20).
    Likewise, the duty sub gravi [under pain of mortal sin- Ed.] of helping souls in the state of grave necessity is binding even if it is the bishop of the diocese who is spreading or favoring Modernism, or, similarly, if it is the pope promoting or favoring Modernism in the universal Church. On the contrary, as we have already seen, it is precisely this circuмstance that gives rise to the grave duty of charity because then the state of necessity of souls is without any hope of help from those who ex officio should be providing for people's ordinary and extraordinary needs.
    These circuмstances, however, will have the effect of rendering the duty of help more difficult and perhaps even heroic on account of the easily foreseeable consequences. It will be denied that there is any state of necessity! The rebuke implied in the act of helping the people will draw down upon whoever does so revulsion and unjust accusations. And, since we are dealing with the person of the pope himself, the subject runs into "even graver danger" because "from the abuses of lesser prelates recourse can always be had to the pope,"2 but against the pope the only recourse is to God (St. Catherine of Siena).

    2. 5th Principle: It is the character of the state of necessity to suspend the superior's power of binding, and if, nevertheless, he attempts to bind, what he commands is not binding
    Further applying the example already given regarding natural law, this principle is illustrated by the case of a husband who not only placed his children in necessity or failed to provide for them, but, who, moreover, prevented his wife from providing for them as far as was in her power. It is obvious that in such a case the husband's power to bind would be suspended, and if he attempted to bind, his command would not be binding upon his wife.
    The fact that in the case of Archbishop Lefebvre the superior is the pope does not nullify this principle. The Vicar of Christ first and foremost has the duty to provide for the needs of souls, and if he does not provide for them (or, worse, if he himself is the cause or part-cause of the grave and general state of spiritual necessity), that does not entitle him to prevent others from providing as far as they can for the needs of souls. This is especially applicable if the duty to supply is rooted in their own sacerdotal or, still more, episcopal state.
    The authority of the pope is indeed unlimited, but from below, not from above. >From above, papal power is limited by divine law, natural and positive. The authority of the pope is "monarchical...and absolute within the limits, however, of divine law, natural and positive" and for that reason "the Roman Pontiff himself cannot act against divine law or disregard it."3 Now, in the state of necessity, divine natural and positive law imposes a duty of charity under pain of mortal sin upon whoever is able to provide help, and in the state of spiritual necessity it imposes this duty above all on bishops and upon priests {as well as on the pope). The pope, as like any other superior, does not have the power to oppose this duty {Suarez: " deest potestas in legislatore ad obligandum" De Legibus, L. VI, cap. VII, n.ll).
    That is why it is said that "the state of necessity carries its own dispensation with it because necessity is not subject to law" {SI; I-II, Q.96, A.6). This is not to mean that in the state of necessity it is lawful to do whatever one wishes, but that "the action otherwise prohibited is rendered lawful and permitted by the state of necessity ."4 This is in order to safeguard higher interests than obedience to the law or to the Superior. In such a case it is not within the power of any superior to demand the observance of the law in the usual way, because to no superior {and still less to the pope) is it granted to exercise authority harmful to anyone else, especially if that harm is spiritual and involves many souls and violates one's duty of state, especially that of a priest or bishop.
    Not even God, the Supreme Legislator, is bound in the state of necessity ."That is why Christ Himself excuses David, who in grave danger ate the breads of proposition which the laity were forbidden to eat by Divine Law."5 According to this principle, not only do human laws cease to oblige in a state of necessity, but even divine-positive and affirmative divine-natural law cease (e.g., "Honor thy father and mother"; "Remember to keep holy the Sabbath Day"). The only law binding in the state of necessity is negative divine-natural law {e.g., "Thou shalt not kill," etc.) . This is because negative divine-natural law prohibits actions that are intrinsically evil and hence forbidden because they are evil, as opposed to actions which are evil only because they are forbidden, such as the consecration of bishops without pontifical mandate.

    3 .6th Principle: It is the character of necessity to place the subject in the physical or moral impossibility of obeying
    It is certain that God binds nobody in a state of necessity, but the human legislator "can say 'no' without reason and in violation of natural and eternal law"6 and therefore they can in fact forbid an action required by the state of necessity. But, since the pope's "No" is powerless to do away with the grave general necessity of souls and hence the associated duty sub gravito go to their help, the subject, especially if he is a bishop or priest, then finds himself in the moral and absolute impossibility of obeying, because he could not obey without himself sinning and harming others. Hence, it is the character of the state of necessity "to create a sort of impotency whereby it is impossible to do something commanded or not do some- thing forbidden."7
    This is not, in fact, the case of authority not being bound to oblige because" summum ius summa iniuria," or one which issues an inopportune command lacking in prudence, but which nevertheless people could be bound to obey all the same in view of the common good. This is, on the other hand, the case of authority that cannot oblige, because its command is opposed to a precept of divine and natural law "more grave and obliging."8 In such a case to obey the law or the legislator would be "evil and a sin" (Suarez, De Legibus, L. VI, c. VII, n.8). St. Thomas calls obedience in such a case "evil" (SI; 11-11, Q120, A.1). Cajetan refers to it as a "vice" (Cajetan in 1.2, q.96, a.6). Hence, refusal to obey becomes a duty (i.e" inoboedientia debita).9
    The reality of such a case is not that the subject is disobeying. It is better said that he is obeying a higher and more compelling command issuing from divine authority, which "commands us to regard higher interests."10 Human authority , in fact, "is neither the first nor the only rule of morality ."6 Earthly authority is a" norma normata, "that is to say, a rule itself regulated by divine law, and hence when human authority, "contrary to natural and eternal law,"6 says "No," then disobeying man in order to obey God becomes a duty."11
    4. 7th Principle: He who, constrained by the state of necessity, does not obey, is not questioning the lawful exercise of authority
    For there to be disobedience, the command or prohibition must be lawful. This is the case when the Roman Pontiff or the Ordinary have the power to make the command or prohibition and, at the same time, the subjects are bound to obey the command or prohibition.12 But, we have seen: 1) that even for the pope the principle holds that, when the application of a law "would be contrary to the common good or to natural law [and in our case even divine-positive law-Ed.]...it is not in the power of the legislator to oblige,"13 and, 2) that the state of necessity, especially the necessity of which we are speaking, creates in the subject "a condition of impotency or impossibility [in this case morally and absolutely-Ed.] of doing a thing commanded or not doing a thing forbidden."7
    Therefore, the command or prohibition of a superior which, by reason of extraordinary circuмstances, results in harm to souls and the common good, as well as being contrary to the state of the subject (cf. Suarez, De religione, LX, cap.IX, n.4), loses its character of lawfulness and absolves the subject from his duty to obey, "...nor are those who behave in such a way, to be accused of having failed in obedience, because if the will of leaders is repugnant to the will and the laws of God, these leaders exceed the measure of their power."14
    We have already quoted St. Alphonsus that in the state of necessity there is imposed a "divine and natural law to which the human law of the Church cannot be opposed," and hence not even the command of the pope. The primacy of jurisdiction of the pope, therefore, is not in any way called into question by a violation of a jurisdictional law (as we have already seen), nor is it called into question by disobedience motivated by a state of necessity. In fact, the priest or bishop who, constrained by necessity, does not obey the pope is not thereby denying his own subordination to the pope outside the case of necessity, and so he is not refusing authority in its lawful exercise. Similarly, a wife is not denying the authority of her husband outside of the case of necessity, in which she has the duty to supply for him against his unreasonably opposed will.
    St. Thomas says that whoever acts in a state of necessity "is not setting himself up as a judge of law" or of the legislator, nor is he even claiming that his point of view is better than that of authority, but he is merely "judging the particular case in which he sees that the words of the law [and/or the command of the legislator - Ed.] must not be observed," because their observance in this particular case would be gravely harmful. Hence, the state of necessity frees the subject from the accusation of arrogating to himself a power that does not belong to him (ST, I-II, Q.96, A.6, ad. 1,2). G. Gerson, for his part, reminds us that "contempt of the keys must be evaluated on the basis of legitimate power and the legitimate use of power."14
    Hence, a priest who does not obey the pope forbidding him to absolve in a state of necessity, or a bishop who does not obey the pope forbidding him to consecrate bishops required by the grave spiritual necessity of many souls threatened in their faith and morals and without hope of help from their lawful pastors, cannot be accused of "contempt of the keys." This is so because the pope's action against divine law (natural and positive) is not making "lawful use" of his authority.
    The primacy of the pope means blind submission "without examination of the object" exclusively "in matters of faith and morals," and when the pope expresses himself at that level on which his authority is infallible; otherwise, submission to the pope would be subject to the moral norms which regulate obedience. Hence, if the pope exceeds the "measure" of his power, the subjects who obey "God rather than man" are not to be accused of having failed in obedience (cf. Leo XIII, Diuturnum Illud, available from Angelus Press. Price: $0.75).
    In the case we are considering, Archbishop Lefebvre did not question the right of the Vicar of Christ to exercise control, by virtue of his primacy, over the power of the episcopal order. He simply questioned whether the papal control over episcopal consecrations was able, in the present extraordinary circuмstances, to be respected without grave harm to many souls and without grave fault on his own part. These are circuмstances in which, as Pope John Paul II himself recognized, "ideas opposed to the revealed and constantly taught truth are being scattered by handfuls," when "true and genuine heresies are being spread in the realm of dogma and morals," and when Christians "in large part...lost, confused, perplexed, while being tempted by atheism, by agnosticism, by a vaguely moralistic humanism, by a sociological Christianity without defined dogmas and without objective morals,"11...are generally without hope of help from their lawful pastors.
    Likewise, Archbishop Lefebvre did not question the Pope's power to command bishops in the interests of the Church and of souls, but he simply questioned whether in the present extraordinary circuмstances he could obey the Pope without grave harm to the Church and to souls, and without himself committing a grave sin, since he was under the grave duty of supplying, a duty imposed by charity and rooted in his episcopal state. And, in materially violating the disciplinary norm and the command he had received, he took care to affirm the dogmatic foundation of the primacy of the Holy Father and confine himself strictly within the limits of Catholic doctrine on the state of necessity. This was done in such a way that Cardinal Gagnon himself announced that "Archbishop Lefebvre has not in fact made the claim, 'I have the power to act in this realm.'"15
    To maintain that by resisting the Pope's "No" Archbishop Lefebvre was denying the primacy of the Pope, one would have to claim that whoever resists a harmful command on the part of authority is denying authority itself, which is false.
    These things having been said, we may now judge the position of those critics of Archbishop Lefebvre who would agree that the pope ought never to forbid an action necessary to save a man in peril of physical death, yet who simultaneously claim the pope has power to forbid an action necessary to help souls exposed to danger of eternal spiritual death. They defend his power [to prohibit an action] in order to safeguard the very primacy that is granted to the pope to save souls, not to damn them.
    Gerson says that they are "weak-hearted" who think "that the pope is a god who has all power in heaven and on earth,"2 but the critics of Archbishop Lefebvre make the pope - or so it seems to us - more than a god, because not even God issues any command harmful to souls, nor does He insist on being obeyed when souls are being harmed. In reality, these unjust critics are making the primacy of Peter into the supreme law of the Church, which it is not, because that primacy has for its purpose the saving of souls. These critics are bringing papal primacy down to the level of a tyranny and the obedience due to the pope to the level of slavery, and they are making obedience the greatest of all virtues, which it is not, at least according to Catholic doctrine, for which obedience, even to the pope, is subordinate to the exercise of the theological virtues, charity being in the first place.16 St. Thomas, answering the objection that "sometimes to obey we must omit doing what is good," replies that "There is a good which a man is bound to do necessarily, such as loving God or other similar things. And that good may in no way be neglected out of obedience" (ST,II-II, Q.I04, A.3, ad.3) [emphasis added]. Among these "other similar things" there are in the first place the duties of one's state of life (especially if one is a Catholic bishop) and the love of neighbor, contained as a secondary object within the love of God. In fact, everything in the Church, with its hierarchical constitution, the primacy of Peter and the laws that control the power of Order, have charity as their final purpose, and if "necessity is not subject to law" (ST, cit.), it is because it is subject to the supreme law, which is charity. To the law of charity are subject even the Vicars of Christ who have, yes, the primacy of jurisdiction and hence the right to control all other jurisdiction within the Church, but:
    In Archbishop Lefebvre and the Vatican you will find a complete set of the docuмents exchanged between Rome and Archbishop Lefebvre in the time leading up to and immediately following his episcopal consecrations of June 30, 1988. Available from Angelus Press. Price $12.95 plus shipping and handling.

    B. A Word on Epikeia
    That which is called by the Church "necessary" epikeia, or "epikeia without recourse to the superior"17 rests upon the four principles cited above in this second part of our theological study (pp.18,19). Epikeia is being taken here in its broad and correct sense in which it is to be identified with equity, which is the highest form of justice (ST, II-II, Q.120, A.l). This true epikeia is a virtue concerning precisely “duties arising in particular cases out of the ordinary” (ST, II-II, Q.80), and which therefore comes to be identified in Canon Law with the norms of “cessation ‘in itself’ of the law in a particular case” and of “causes excusing“ observance of the law and/or obedience to the lawmaker.18  [Epikeia (or equity) is a favorable and just interpretation not of the law itself but of the mind of the legislator, who is presumed to be unwilling to bind his subjects in extraordinary cases where the observance of the law would cause injury or impose too severe a burden. – Ed.]
    In his Dictionary of Canon Law, Naz writes that of St. Thomas Aquinas:The state of necessity in the case of Archbishop Lefebvre is precisely the case in which the lawmaker cannot impose the application of the law because it has become, by force of particular circuмstances, contrary to the common good and to the divine natural and positive law. On his part, under the pressure of a precept of divine natural and positive law, “…the subject [e.g., Archbishop Lefebvre – Ed.] not only may, but he is bound not to observe the law, whether he asks or does not ask for permission to do so from the superior.”21
    Regarding seeking permissions from the superior, Suarez explains (speaking precisely of the pope) that here, “it is not a question of interpreting the will of the superior, but [a question] of his power” in order to know what is not necessary to ask the superior, because it is permitted to make use of “doctrinal rules” or “principles of theology and law,”22 given that “one knows with more certitude the power [of the superior] which is not free, rather than his will, which is free [emphasis added].”23 For that reason the subject, having prudently examined the circuмstances and been informed by the “doctrinal rules” or by the “principles of theology and law” that is “beyond the power of legislator”24 to bind anyone to respect the law when it causes grave harm to so many souls, and that to obey in such a case would be “evil and a sin,”25 he may not - indeed, he must not - submit to the law or to the command“on his own authority,”26 “by his own judgment.”27 Hence, by his own initiative, he refuses submission “without recourse to the superior,”28 that is to say, without any dispensation or approval on the part of the said superior. The reason, writes Suarez, is:Such would be the case of the wife who, faced by the grave necessity of her children, does not need the consent of her husband to fulfil her duty to supply, and even were her husband to forbid her to do so, she would not owe him obedience, and hence it would be out of place to ask for his consent, knowing him to be hostile.
    Asking if the danger of harm to oneself or to others excuses from obeying, Suarez replies thatThere remains, however, the duty to avoid scandal of neighbor, and for that reason every opportune and humble means must be attempted with regard to the Supreme Pontiff. But if a humble insistence serves no purpose, then it is necessary to exercise a manly and courageous liberty.2

    C. REFUTATION OF MORE FALSE OBJECTIONS
    Hence, it is not true that “it is only permitted to use epikeia if the legislator is inaccessible,” as we read in the tract, Du sacre episcopal contra la volonté du Pape (p.49), published by the Fraternity of St. Peter. What it says is true for epikeia in the strict or improper sense, but not for epikeia in the broad and proper sense. In the case of its improper (or popular) sense, epikeia persumes that authority – out of its kindness – does not wish to oblige, although it has the power to do so and hence, if the lawmaker is accessible, there is the duty to ask him, given that it is a question of “his will which is free” (Suarez, cit.). On the other hand, epikeia in the broad and proper sense concerns those cases in which authority cannot oblige, even if it wishes to do so, and the subject finds himself in the moral impossibility of obeying. Hence, epikeia is “necessary” (Suarez), and therefore recourse to the legislator is per se not obligatory. Indeed, it must be left out whenever it is foreseen that the superior would try to make his command binding despite the harm to the person making the request or to anyone else. In such a case, in fact, we are dealing not with the will of the superior, but his “power, which is not free” (Suarez, cit.).
    Even less true is what we read in De Rome et d’ailleurs that a “state of necessity” arises when it is impossible to contact the superior, which presupposes a certain urgency in the decision to be taken.34 This is true for epikeia in the improper or popular sense, but even then it is true only in part because the state of necessity does not arise from the impossibility of contacting the superior, but it exists independently of that impossibility of contacting him, and it persists independently of an eventual refusal from the superior.
    To settle the question, we quote Fr. Tito Centi, O.P.:The grave spiritual necessity of many souls comes under the first case "a)" above, the case of positive law which by the force of extraordinary circuмstances becomes "evil" because "it is in opposition to a superior law binding one to regard higher interests" (i.e., epikeia in the proper sense - Ed.). The authors of the tract, on the contrary, like the writer of the article in the above-mentioned publication, seem to admit only the second and the third cases, "b)" and "c)" (i.e., epikeia in the improper or popular sense), which have nothing to do with the case of Archbishop Lefebvre. In the first case "a)," which is the case of Archbishop Lefebvre, epikeia coincides with equity, and, hence involves the moral impossibility of obeying and is, as we have already seen, a right [besides being a duty]. On the other hand, in the second and third cases noted in "b)" and "c)," epikeia is simply identified with clemency or moderation in the application of laws and in the exercise of authority.18
    We are in exceptional circuмstances and, therefore, must ascend to higher principles which are not preached every day and which, therefore, are unknown to many, but which, nevertheless, are able to be found succinctly summarized in any treatise on the general principles of law or moral theology. Thus for example, in the Institutiones Morales Alphonsianae of Fr. Clement Marc we read:In Regarding Principles of Moral Theology (III, n.199), Noldin says:Finally, any manual explaining the principles of Canon Law deals with the cessation "ab intrinseco" of the law, that is to say, with the law that ceases to oblige out of the simple fact that it is in such-and-such a case harmful, and not because the lawmaker decrees that it should cease, or grants a dispensation from it. Such is exactly the case of the state of necessity, which is the strongest reason excusing one from obedience and strict observance of the law.36 This is especially true when this state of necessity arises from the duty, rooted in one's state, to help many souls in grave spiritual necessity, because "the salvation of souls is, for spiritual society, the ultimate end towards which all its laws and institutions are oriented."16 This is true for the entire hierarchy of the Church, top to bottom.

    D. CONCLUSION
    The conclusion of our study is that either one denies the state of necessity - the way chosen by the Vatican - or, if one admits there is a crisis, then one must approve the action of Archbishop Lefebvre. His decision, no matter how out of the ordinary it may seem, must be judged in relation to the out-of-the-ordinary situation in which it was carried out. Therefore, "it is necessary to judge [it] on the basis of higher principles than ordinary laws" (ST, II-II, Q.54, A.4). From these principles which we have laid out over the two parts of this theological study, it follows that:

    The fact that the Vatican has denied there is any state of necessity does not annul the grave necessity in which so many souls are presently to be found. Rather, its denials confirm that this state of necessity is, at least for the time being, without any hope of relief from the Holy See. For that reason, to the authors of Du sacre episcopal contre la volonté du Pape who object that "St. Eusebius [of Samosata) acted without the pope's consent but not against the pope's consent, " we reply that only a question of fact is at stake, not of principle. We concede that St. Eusebius was not faced with the "No" of a pope who promoted and favored Arianism, and demanded respect for laws which would have deprived of help souls placed in grave spiritual necessity. But, had St. Eusebius found himself in that position, he would have had to follow the moral principles recalled above and to fulfil, not "against" the pope's "No" but despite the pope's "No," the most serious duty of charity laid upon his episcopacy by the grave and general necessity of souls.
    The authors of the tract criticize what they call arguments of an "illuminist" or "charismatic" kind, meaning by this those who have made with simplicity an act of confidence in the uprightness of Archbishop Lefebvre. They are theologically wrong to do so. St. Thomas writes:This special "perspicacity of judgment," says St. Thomas, can be possessed only by virtue of holiness:In this continuing study we are leaving to the side the sanctity of Archbishop Lefebvre to confine ourselves to the general principles of theology and Canon Law, so that the truth is clear to all those admitting there is a crisis in the Church. This truth is that in the present extraordinary circuмstances, one need not believe in obedience at all costs (even if it cost the Faith or the salvation of souls). Nor need one accept the non-provable "sedevacantist" theses. There is a third way: to observe what the Church teaches concerning the "state of necessity." That is exactly what Archbishop Lefebvre did.
    Hirpinus (edited by Rev. Fr. Kenneth Novak)


    1. Suarez, De caritate disp. IX, sectio II, n.3.
    2. G. Gerson, De contemptu clavium et materia excommunicationum et inrregularitatum, considerations VII-XII, Opera, Basilea 1489, prima pars, f33, quoted in La scomunica di Girolamo Savonarola of Fr. Tito Centi, O.P., ed. Ares, Milano.
    3. P. Palazzini Dictionarium moral et canonicuм under "episcopus."
    4. Enciclopedia Cattolica under "stato di necessita."
    5. H. Noldin SJ., Summa Theologiae moralis, vol.I, De Principiis L.III, q.8, 203.
    6.Robert-Palazzini, Dizionario di teologia morale under resistenza al potere injuisto.
    7. Dictionnaire, Droit Canonique under "nécessité " col.,991
    8. Suarez, De Legibus, L. VI, c. VII, n.12.
    9. P. Palazzini, Dictionarium morale et canonicuм under "oboedientia."
    10. Tito Centi, O.P., La Somma Teologica, ed. Salani vol.XIX, nota I, p.274.
    11.Roberti-Palazzini, Dizionario cit. Resistenza al potere inguisto; v. Leo XIII, Libertas
    12.P. Palazzini, Dictionarium, cit. under "inoboedientia."
    13. Naz, Dictionnaire Droit Canonique under “epikie.”
    14.Leone XIII, Diuturnum Illud.
    15. Interview in 30 Days, March, 1991.
    16. P. Palazzini, Dictionarium cit. under "oboedientia."
    17.F. Suarez, De Legibus, 1, VI, c.VIII, n.1
    18. V. Roberti-Palazzini, Dizionariao di Teologia morale, ad. Studium, under "equita." See also: "aequitas canonica" cit., and Naz, Dictionnaire Droit canonique under "equite."
    19. Naz, Dict. cit. "epikie," col.366.
    20. Naz, loc. cit.
    21. Suarez, De Legibus, L.VI, c.VII, n.11.
    22. Suarez, op. cit. n.4.
    23. Suarez, op. cit. n.6.
    24. Suarez, De Legibus, L. VI, c. VII, n.11.
    25. Ibid.  L. VI, c. VIII, n.8.
    26. Ibid.  L. VI, c. VIII, n.1.
    27. ST, I-II, Q.80.
    28.  Suarez, De statu perfectionis/De voto oboedientia, L.X, c.IV, n.15.
    29. Ibid.
    30. Suarez, De statu perftctionis/De voto oboedientia, L.X,c.IV,n.15.
    31. Suarez, De Legibus, L.VI, c.VIlI, n.1.
    32. Suarez, op. cit. n.2.
    33. Naz, Dictionnaire Droit Canonique under "epikie," col. 369ƒƒ.
    34. De Rome et d'ailleurs, Sept.-Oct., 1991, p.17.
    35. La Somma Teologica, ed. Salani, vol. XIX, nota 1, p.247.
    36. Naz, Dict. Droit Canonique under "excuse," col.633.
    37. P. Palazzini, Dictionarium cit. under "iurisdictio suppleta."

    Every time I post this, sedes never seem to respond.

    I wonder why that is?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Pete Vere

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #69 on: October 18, 2020, 08:57:15 PM »
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  • Every time I post this, sedes never seem to respond.

    I wonder why that is?

    I'm not sede personally, but my guess would be the huge font, as well as lack of indentation and proper spacing between paragraphs. As one gets older it is very difficult to read. Even with progressive lenses. 

     

    Offline Pete Vere

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #70 on: October 18, 2020, 08:59:43 PM »
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  • PS to Pete: You realize Fr. Cekada banned all from attending una cuм Masses, right?  Which more or less means your post is baloney.

    Must have been later in life. He certainly was not that way when I knew him. In fact, although he himself has staunchly in the sedevacantist camp personally, he was opposed to imposing sedevacantism on others. 


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #71 on: October 18, 2020, 09:51:05 PM »
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  • I'm not sede personally, but my guess would be the huge font, as well as lack of indentation and proper spacing between paragraphs. As one gets older it is very difficult to read. Even with progressive lenses.

     

    Nope: I always supply the link, by which the sedes can read the article in its native font.
    I have another idea:

    A pope who is not always infallible, and who can give evil commands, is fatal to sedevacantism, therefore they prefer to wait for the article to be buried.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #72 on: October 18, 2020, 09:55:13 PM »
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  • Must have been later in life. He certainly was not that way when I knew him. In fact, although he himself has staunchly in the sedevacantist camp personally, he was opposed to imposing sedevacantism on others.

    2007, and again in 2014 (and of course, Bishop Sanborn quite agreed).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Pete Vere

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #73 on: October 18, 2020, 10:16:24 PM »
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  • Nope: I always supply the link, by which the sedes can read the article in its native font.
    I have another idea:

    A pope who is not always infallible, and who can give evil commands, is fatal to sedevacantism, therefore they prefer to wait for the article to be buried.
    No, I'm pretty sure its a combination of the huge font and lack of easily identifiable paragraphs. 

    I can't even find the link to the original article because the wall of text is giving me a headache. 

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #74 on: October 18, 2020, 10:35:17 PM »
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  • No, I'm pretty sure its a combination of the huge font and lack of easily identifiable paragraphs.

    I can't even find the link to the original article because the wall of text is giving me a headache.

    I'm pretty sure that's a load of BS, but just in case you really are that delicate, here you go (for the third time):

    https://www.sspxasia.com/Docuмents/SiSiNoNo/1999_September/The_1988_Consecrations.htm
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."