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Author Topic: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo  (Read 33954 times)

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Offline Veritatis

Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
« Reply #345 on: October 23, 2020, 05:39:49 PM »
Quote from: Mark 79 on October 23, 2020, 04:00:46 PM
Even if it was, it is indeed cursed and anathematized.

Have you never read Cantate Domino?

Cantate Domino from the infallible ecuмenical Council of Florence under His Holiness Pope Eugene IV defining the Solemn Doctrine: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus (“Outside the Church, there is no salvation.”), promulgated by papal bull, February 4, 1444 [Florentine calendar] in Denziger, Enchiridion Symbolorum, The Sources of Catholic Dogma, § 712-714
I've read it many times, and it doesn't forbid prayers and blessings simply because they are found in the Old Testament. What it forbids is practicing the Old Testament rites, ceremonies, sacraments and sacrifices.  If all prayers and blessings from the Old Testament are now cursed, the Traditional Mass would be cursed since it includes countless prayers and blessings from the Psalms.   

BTW, circuмcision is an Old Testament ceremony. It prefigures baptism.  Since the Council of Florence teaches that "the ceremonies, sacred rites, sacrifices, and sacraments," of the Old Law " cannot be observed without the loss of eternal salvation," do you believe all who are circuмcised are lost? What about Catholic parents who have their children circuмcised and never repent of it? Are they lost?.  If you answer no to either question, explain why in light of Florence's teaching.
 
But the part that should really concern you is this:
 
“§714 The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, and heretics, and schismatics, can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire ‘which was prepared for the devil, and his angels,’ (Matthew 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this Ecclesiastical Body, that only those remaining within this unity can profit from the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and that they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, alms deeds, and other works of Christian piety and duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”
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You are outside of the Catholic Church and therefore cannot be saved.    
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Offline Mark 79

  • Supporter
Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
« Reply #346 on: October 23, 2020, 08:07:36 PM »
Quote from: Veritatis on October 23, 2020, 05:39:49 PM
I've read it many times, and it doesn't forbid prayers and blessings simply because they are found in the Old Testament. What it forbids is practicing the Old Testament rites, ceremonies, sacraments and sacrifices.  If all prayers and blessings from the Old Testament are now cursed, the Traditional Mass would be cursed since it includes countless prayers and blessings from the Psalms.  

Firstly, the "blessings" you touted are тαℓмυdic, not Old Testament, so are already—without need of Cantate Domino—damned by Jesus as the "traditions of [the Pharisees]" (Mark 7:9) and their "two-fold children of hell" (Matthew 23:15) proselytes of тαℓмυdic Judaism.. You tried to trick us with your "at the time of Erza" ploy, but nobody bought your lie.

Secondly, even if those "blessings" were Old Testament, they are damned by Cantate Domino precisely because they are "rites, ceremonies, sacraments and sacrifices."  Those "blessings" (actually curses) are part of the Jews' anti-Christ liturgy.  A fortiori, those "benedictions" are not Old Testament Scripture.

Thirdly, nothing in Cantate Domino forbade the inclusion of Scripture in our liturgy.

Bottom line: You are a lying Judaizer who has TWICE tried to pass off man-made тαℓмυdic manure as though it is the Word of God.

Quote from: Veritatis on October 23, 2020, 05:39:49 PM
BTW, circuмcision is an Old Testament ceremony. It prefigures baptism.  Since the Council of Florence teaches that "the ceremonies, sacred rites, sacrifices, and sacraments," of the Old Law " cannot be observed without the loss of eternal salvation," do you believe all who are circuмcised are lost? What about Catholic parents who have their children circuмcised and never repent of it? Are they lost?.  If you answer no to either question, explain why in light of Florence's teaching.
The above paragraph is the kind of ignorance that suggests you are either not Catholic (an infiltrator or false convert), a poorly-catechized Catholic, or convert with an incomplete conversion (quite common among "Hebrew-Catholics").

The Church has long distinguished medical circuмcision (allowed and sinless) from religious circuмcision (forbidden and damning). In a similar vein (pun intended), a medical salpingectomy (e.g., to treat a tubal pregnancy) is allowed and sinless, but a contraceptive salpingectomy is forbidden and mortally sinful. Intent matters.

Similarly, an author might quote or a reader might read those "benedictions" aloud ("Hey, listen to this sick stuff the тαℓмυdic Jews pray…") without incurring sin. But to PRAY those тαℓмυdic "benedictions"—as the Novus Ordo "Mass" does—is a forbidden (Cantate Domino) blasphemy. Intent matters.

Here are some examples of those sick тαℓмυdic "benedictions": http://judaism.is/paganism.html#curses

Are you ignorant or deceitful on this matter of circuмcision?

Quote from: Veritatis on October 23, 2020, 05:39:49 PM
.
You are outside of the Catholic Church and therefore cannot be saved.    

You have no competence and no jurisdiction.
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Offline Veritatis

Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
« Reply #347 on: October 23, 2020, 10:07:10 PM »
Quote from: Mark 79 on October 23, 2020, 08:07:36 PM
Firstly, the "blessings" you touted are тαℓмυdic, not Old Testament, so are already—without need of Cantate Domino—damned by Jesus as the "traditions of [the Pharisees]" (Mark 7:9)

I'm not touting any blessings.  What I'm saying is they wouldn't be cursed today simply because they were used during the Old Testament.  If you are now calling them a "tradition" of the Pharisees from the time of Christ, you are saying they were used during during the Old Testament. Not a post-OT tradition of the тαℓмυd, as you said before.  Make up your mind.   But if the blessings were used by the Pharisees, as you now say, they wouldn't have been what Jesus condemned, since what He condemned were traditions that make void the commandments of God. (Mark 7:9)  Show me what commandment of God the blessing in question made void.

Quote from: Mark 79 on October 23, 2020, 08:07:36 PM
You tried to trick us with your "at the time of Erza" ploy, but nobody bought your lie.

There was no trick. The article you posted said the blessing was not from the time of Ezra, and gave a evidence that they are not listed in the books of Ezra.  But that is a logical fallacy.  Just because the books of Ezra don't mention them does not mean they are not from the time of Ezra.


Quote
Secondly, even if those "blessings" were Old Testament, they are damned by Cantate Domino precisely because they are "rites, ceremonies, sacraments and sacrifices."   Those "blessings" (actually curses) are part of the Jews' anti-Christ liturgy.


More fallacious reasoning. Contante Domino does not condemn blessings used during the Old Testament.  If it did, most of the Psalms would be forbidden.


Quote
Thirdly, nothing in Cantate Domino forbade the inclusion of Scripture in our liturgy.

The ceremonies of the Old Law are in Scripture stupid.  


Quote
Bottom line: You are a lying Judaizer who has TWICE tried to pass off man-made тαℓмυdic manure as though it is the Word of God.


I never tried to pass of the тαℓмυd as scripture.


Quote
The Church has long distinguished medical circuмcision (allowed and sinless) from religious circuмcision (forbidden and damning).   In a similar vein (pun intended), a medical salpingectomy (e.g., to treat a tubal pregnancy) is allowed and sinless, but a contraceptive salpingectomy is forbidden and mortally sinful. Intent matters.


So, you wouldn't object to a Catholic attending a Passover Seder as long as he did so for health reasons? What other Old Testament rituals and ceremonies to you believe Catholics can take part in based on the principle of double effect?  You sound like a Krypto Jew Marrano trying to find an excuse for Catholics to do what Cantate Domino forbids.

When did the Church first distinguish medical circuмcision?  And what if the Catholic parents had their child circuмcised without being aware of any medical benefits?  According to your Krypto Jєωιѕн Marrano reasoning, could they and their child be saved?  

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Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
« Reply #348 on: October 24, 2020, 05:24:14 AM »
Quote from: forlorn on October 23, 2020, 04:54:45 PM
Exactly, which means that popes are allowed to change the missal. Your idea that it only prohibits "substantial" changes is one you invented to reconcile the fact that many popes have altered it with the fact that QP prohibits any alteration. But it doesn't say that in the text. It says no changes at all. So either all those other popes who altered it broke the law, or popes are able to alter QP with bulls of their own.

The answer is, of course, the latter.
The pre-V2 changes to the Roman Missal did not change the Liturgy, did not change the way we worship. That popes could and did make changes to the Roman Missal (Liturgy) without corrupting or damaging the Liturgy demonstrates that the popes understood both the letter and the spirit of the law.

Whether the new missal is a revised version or a new version, I can agree with Pax that it is new, not revised, because of all the obvious reasons. Either way, because by law the new missal is not permitted to be used in the Roman Catholic Church, it is a sin, "The Great Sacrilege" to do so.  

 


   
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Offline forlorn

Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
« Reply #349 on: October 24, 2020, 05:37:20 AM »
Quote from: Stubborn on October 24, 2020, 05:24:14 AM
The pre-V2 changes to the Roman Missal did not change the Liturgy, did not change the way we worship. That popes could and did make changes to the Roman Missal (Liturgy) without corrupting or damaging the Liturgy demonstrates that the popes understood both the letter and the spirit of the law.

Whether the new missal is a revised version or a new version, I can agree with Pax that it is new, not revised, because of all the obvious reasons. Either way, because by law the new missal is not permitted to be used in the Roman Catholic Church, it is a sin, "The Great Sacrilege" to do so.  
Again, another fake distinction you've made. Quo Primum says nothing about changing the liturgy.

Quote
We likewise declare and ordain that no one whosoever is forced or coerced to alter this Missal, and that this present docuмent cannot be revoked or modified

Stop trying to put words in Pope St. Pius V's mouth.

Quo Primum clearly says that the MISSAL may not be modified. And yet a number of popes modified it prior to Vatican 2. What does that tell you? 
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