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Author Topic: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo  (Read 19971 times)

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Offline ByzCat3000

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Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
« Reply #270 on: October 22, 2020, 05:34:40 PM »
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  • Two things.
    First of all, if the missal were licit, even if the saying of it were not, it would then be certainly valid. Per Trent:
    (Note: This canon, and the other canons of the Mass, refer to any Mass of the Church, not merely those of the Tridentine Rite, since otherwise it would still be permitted to say Masses in other rites preserved by Trent were invalid, heretical etc.)

    Secondly, Trent does not forbid the saying of non-Tridentine Masses, so I don't see why it would be unlawful for priests to say a licitly promulgated Mass.
    I tend to think the NO is valid but just illicit, but I don't think Trent would prove even this.  Remember that the Council was repudating Protestants who didn't think *any* mass was truly offering sacrifice to God, etc.  Now certainly I agree that the fathers at Trent *would have* defended the validity of non Tridentine Rites (such as the Eastern Rite of Mass) but I doubt they were even considering the idea of someone saying *only some* rites are valid.  Rather they were condemning protestants who were invalidating all rites of mass.

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #271 on: October 22, 2020, 05:36:02 PM »
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  • I tend to think the NO is valid but just illicit, but I don't think Trent would prove even this.  Remember that the Council was repudating Protestants who didn't think *any* mass was truly offering sacrifice to God, etc.  Now certainly I agree that the fathers at Trent *would have* defended the validity of non Tridentine Rites (such as the Eastern Rite of Mass) but I doubt they were even considering the idea of someone saying *only some* rites are valid.  Rather they were condemning protestants who were invalidating all rites of mass.
    ie. this is condemning those who are *doctrinally* wrong on the mass, it doesn't seem immediately concerned with whether a Pope could invent an invalid form of mass at a future date.

    And again, I believe the thing is valid, for other reasons.  Mostly that the vast majority of trad clergy seem to have thought so, and also while the NO seems to be an impediment to salvation I wonder if God would allow salvation to be completely cut off from there.  But I don't think Trent necessarily proves even validity.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #272 on: October 22, 2020, 05:36:51 PM »
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  • Quote
    Two things.
    First of all, if the missal were licit, even if the saying of it were not, it would then be certainly valid. Per Trent:

    No, a missal is not the same thing as a Mass.  A missal is an inanimate OBJECT; a collection of rubrics.  A mass is a sacrificial ACT, performed by a PRIEST.  The former is a thing; the latter is an action.
    .

    Quote
    (Note: This canon, and the other canons of the Mass, refer to any Mass of the Church, not merely those of the Tridentine Rite, since otherwise it would still be permitted to say Masses in other rites preserved by Trent were invalid, heretical etc.)
    No, this canon refers specifically to the Tridentine rite, as the whole purpose of the Council of Trent was to combat the heresies of Protestantism.  There existed, at the time of the late 1500s, only 1 rite of the mass, so Trent was explaining the importance and purpose of the Tridentine Mass, as opposed to Protestant heretics.
    .
    You can't interpret this passage in light of V2.  It just doesn't work. 
    .

    Quote
    Secondly, Trent does not forbid the saying of non-Tridentine Masses, so I don't see why it would be unlawful for priests to say a licitly promulgated Mass.

    Correct, Trent does not forbid the saying of non-Tridentine masses.  But Quo Primum, which is an extension of Trent, specifically does....under penalty of a grave sin of disobedience.

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #273 on: October 22, 2020, 05:38:38 PM »
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    No, this canon refers specifically to the Tridentine rite, as the whole purpose of the Council of Trent was to combat the heresies of Protestantism.  There existed, at the time of the late 1500s, only 1 rite of the mass, so Trent was explaining the importance and purpose of the Tridentine Mass, as opposed to Protestant heretics.
    I don't know how you define "Tridentine" but there were certainly at the least Eastern liturgies like the Divine liturgy of St Chrysostom being said by uniates that predated Trent.  And of course the Orthodox schismatics have valid just illicit masses.  I agree with you that Trent isn't even addressing whether a pope could invent an invalid missal tho.

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #274 on: October 22, 2020, 05:41:02 PM »
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  • No, a missal is not the same thing as a Mass.  A missal is an inanimate OBJECT; a collection of rubrics.  A mass is a sacrificial ACT, performed by a PRIEST.  The former is a thing; the latter is an action.
    A collection of rubrics... on the saying of a Mass. Saying that the Church can licitly issue missals and order them to be used, while also saying that the actual Mass itself is somehow illicit and not a Mass of the Church, is тαℓмυdist nonsense.

    No, this canon refers specifically to the Tridentine rite, as the whole purpose of the Council of Trent was to combat the heresies of Protestantism.  There existed, at the time of the late 1500s, only 1 rite of the mass, so Trent was explaining the importance and purpose of the Tridentine Mass, as opposed to Protestant heretics.
    It did not and no there was not only one rite of Mass. Trent explicitly went out of its way to say it was preserving rites in use for more than 200 years at that time.

    Correct, Trent does not forbid the saying of non-Tridentine masses.  But Quo Primum, which is an extension of Trent, specifically does....under penalty of a grave sin of disobedience.
    It does not.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #275 on: October 22, 2020, 05:46:38 PM »
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    Now certainly I agree that the fathers at Trent *would have* defended the validity of non Tridentine Rites (such as the Eastern Rite of Mass) but I doubt they were even considering the idea of someone saying *only some* rites are valid.  Rather they were condemning protestants who were invalidating all rites of mass.

    Correct.  Trent was, as were all councils, concerned with doctrine.  Trent was concerned with the Protestant heresies and protecting the Faith. 
    .
    Quo Primum was concerned with the liturgy; it is an "internal memo" of the Church, to deal only with its liturgy.  It had nothing to do with Protestantism, except for the fact that the protestant heresy highlighted the need for uniformity.  While the liturgy is an expression of doctrine, the liturgy is a separate entity.
    .
    Quo Primum specifically allows Eastern rites that were over 200+ years old at the time of 1571 to continue, since these rites are part of the Traditions of the Church.  Any rites that were less than 200 yrs old at the time of 1571 were deemed "new" and had to conform to the Tridentine norms.  The whole purpose of Quo Primum was to streamline the Latin Rite so that the Church could pray "as one", using one rite.  The old, ancient Eastern rites were not affected by Quo Primum, because they are Apostolic in nature.  They are also substantially and essentially the same as the Latin rite, and their use is much, much smaller than the latin rite, so there was no need for correction, since the Eastern rites did not experience the same degree of "creativity" as did the Latin rite.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #276 on: October 22, 2020, 05:49:47 PM »
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  • Quote
    A collection of rubrics... on the saying of a Mass. Saying that the Church can licitly issue missals and order them to be used, while also saying that the actual Mass itself is somehow illicit and not a Mass of the Church, is тαℓмυdist nonsense.

    The underlined is your logical mistake.  There is no "order" than any catholic has to say/attend/accept/use/agree with/etc the new mass.  It is a completely optional liturgy.  There is no pain of sin and no loss of heaven for a catholic to ignore the new mass.  No church official has ever said otherwise.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #277 on: October 22, 2020, 05:51:04 PM »
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    I don't know how you define "Tridentine" but there were certainly at the least Eastern liturgies like the Divine liturgy of St Chrysostom being said by uniates that predated Trent.

    If you read Quo Primum, it specifically says that it applies to the Latin rite only, with liturgies more than 200 yrs old in 1571 not affected by the law.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #278 on: October 22, 2020, 05:53:30 PM »
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    It did not and no there was not only one rite of Mass. Trent explicitly went out of its way to say it was preserving rites in use for more than 200 years at that time.

    You are correct.  I misspoke.  But my point still stands.  The whole purpose of Trent was to fight Protestantism...it was not to define the liturgical parameters which a pope must follow 500 yrs later in 1960.  Quo Primum's purpose was to define liturgical parameters.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #279 on: October 22, 2020, 05:54:48 PM »
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    It does not.

    Speaking of the Latin rite, yes, Quo Primum forbids all liturgies which aren't Tridentine.  The only exceptions are for rites 200+ yrs old at the time of 1571.

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #280 on: October 22, 2020, 06:37:47 PM »
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  • The underlined is your logical mistake.  There is no "order" than any catholic has to say/attend/accept/use/agree with/etc the new mass.  It is a completely optional liturgy.  There is no pain of sin and no loss of heaven for a catholic to ignore the new mass.  No church official has ever said otherwise.
    You're right, but my assertion is that if the missal is a missal of the Church(i.e it was validly promulgated) then the Mass that's said using it is a Mass of the Church, and is therefore valid and not blasphemous. I'm not saying it's automatically licit to use the missal or mandatory to hear Masses said using it, but if the missal is of the Church then so too is the Mass.

    Speaking of the Latin rite, yes, Quo Primum forbids all liturgies which aren't Tridentine.  The only exceptions are for rites 200+ yrs old at the time of 1571.
    This was following on from my point that there were other Masses at the time of Trent. The canons of the Mass must refer to all Masses of the Church or else it wouldn't have applied to all those other rites, allowing people to condemn them as invalid, blasphemous, etc.

    Also, on a separate note, that ban wouldn't pose an issue for Missale Romanum as they're legally on the same level.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #281 on: October 22, 2020, 07:58:02 PM »
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    You're right, but my assertion is that if the missal is a missal of the Church(i.e it was validly promulgated) then the Mass that's said using it is a Mass of the Church, and is therefore valid and not blasphemous.
    There's no such thing as "validly promulgated" because promulgate is a legal term, so a missal can only be LEGALLY promulgated.  The legality of an act is distinct from it's validity or morality.
    .
    In this case, we are only dealing with legality.  Putting aside all Eastern/ancient rites, Quo Primum prevents the use of any non-Tridentine missal.  But (playing devil's advocate) QP does not prevent the CREATION of a new missal, only its use.
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    Quote
    I'm not saying it's automatically licit to use the missal or mandatory to hear Masses said using it, but if the missal is of the Church then so too is the Mass.

    Well, to use a missal is to say a Mass.  You can't make a distinction between the 2.
    .
    From a legal standpoint, Quo Primum does not allow ANY missal to be used, except for it's own.  Just because a pope creates a new missal does not mean that it's ok to use.  Did St Peter create the Catholic Church?  Of course he didn't - Christ did.  Just because a pope creates a missal, doesn't mean it's part of the Faith.  He's not an oracle; he can't do whatever he wants.  That's ridiculous.

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #282 on: October 22, 2020, 08:06:02 PM »
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  • There's no such thing as "validly promulgated" because promulgate is a legal term, so a missal can only be LEGALLY promulgated.  The legality of an act is distinct from it's validity or morality.
    .
    In this case, we are only dealing with legality.  Putting aside all Eastern/ancient rites, Quo Primum prevents the use of any non-Tridentine missal.  But (playing devil's advocate) QP does not prevent the CREATION of a new missal, only its use.

    Sorry, I keep using valid by its secular meaning. I meant lawfully, yes. What I'm asserting is that if the missal is of the Church, then so too is the Mass. And a Mass of the Church cannot be heretical or blasphemous.

    Well, to use a missal is to say a Mass.  You can't make a distinction between the 2.

    From a legal standpoint, Quo Primum does not allow ANY missal to be used, except for it's own.  Just because a pope creates a new missal does not mean that it's ok to use.  Did St Peter create the Catholic Church?  Of course he didn't - Christ did.  Just because a pope creates a missal, doesn't mean it's part of the Faith.  He's not an oracle; he can't do whatever he wants.  That's ridiculous.
    I believe it was you making a distinction between the two, not me, when you suggested the missal could have been lawfully promulgated but not the Mass.

    I'm not arguing that it could not be illicit for the NO Mass to be said even if Missale Romanum was licit, but rather that the NO Mass must be valid and not inherently heretical or blasphemous in that case. It's like how the Conciliar Church (falsely) claimed it was illicit to say the Tridentine Mass for many years. They didn't say the Mass was invalid or inherently blasphemous, because it would be ridiculous and a heretical contradiction of Trent to claim that, even if (in their belief) permission was revoked to say it. Likewise, I'm saying that even if it is unlawful for clergy to say NO Mass, that it cannot be invalid, inherently heretical, or blasphemous so long as Missale Romanum was lawfully promulgated.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #283 on: October 22, 2020, 08:06:58 PM »
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    This was following on from my point that there were other Masses at the time of Trent. The canons of the Mass must refer to all Masses of the Church or else it wouldn't have applied to all those other rites, allowing people to condemn them as invalid, blasphemous, etc.
    I don't know what you're saying here.  Different rites have different canons, but they essentially mean the same thing, because they are all from Apostolic origin.
    .

    Quote
    Also, on a separate note, that ban wouldn't pose an issue for Missale Romanum as they're legally on the same level.

    Quo Primum's ban wouldn't apply to Paul 6's law?  You are correct and incorrect.
    .
    1) As explained already, Paul 6's law does nothing more than create a new missal.  It does not say who has to use this missal, nor when, nor how, nor why, nor if there is a penalty for ignoring it.  So, according to law, all Paul 6 does is create a new missal.
    .
    2) Paul 6 does not say that his new missal replaces Quo Primum; neither does he say that it is legally similar; nor does he say that it can be used, in spite of Quo Primum's restrictions.  In fact, Paul 6 does not address QP at all, except to reference it at the beginning when he is introducing his "new" rite.
    .
    So, yes, each rite is legally on the same level...as far as "existence" is concerned.  As far as "using" the rite, no, the novus ordo is probably invalid, definitely illegal and definitely immoral.

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #284 on: October 22, 2020, 08:10:41 PM »
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  • I don't know what you're saying here.  Different rites have different canons, but they essentially mean the same thing, because they are all from Apostolic origin.

    I'm referring to the canons of the Mass in Session 22 of the Council of Trent. http://www.thecounciloftrent.com/ch22.htm


    Quo Primum's ban wouldn't apply to Paul 6's law?  You are correct and incorrect.
    .
    1) As explained already, Paul 6's law does nothing more than create a new missal.  It does not say who has to use this missal, nor when, nor how, nor why, nor if there is a penalty for ignoring it.  So, according to law, all Paul 6 does is create a new missal.
    .
    2) Paul 6 does not say that his new missal replaces Quo Primum; neither does he say that it is legally similar; nor does he say that it can be used, in spite of Quo Primum's restrictions.  In fact, Paul 6 does not address QP at all, except to reference it at the beginning when he is introducing his "new" rite.
    .
    So, yes, each rite is legally on the same level...as far as "existence" is concerned.  As far as "using" the rite, no, the novus ordo is probably invalid, definitely illegal and definitely immoral.
    Agreed. I was just saying QP wouldn't prohibit him from promulgating a new missal, not that Missale Romanum necessarily abrogated the sections preventing the use of other missals.