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Author Topic: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo  (Read 19908 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
« Reply #240 on: October 22, 2020, 01:41:11 PM »
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  • I
    It was, of course, Father Scott  . . . The view he expressed—in brief, that the new mass is valid in se but not licit to participate in—is still the Society's position.

    The mass of five "popes" now counting, and of the millions of Catholics in communion with them?
    :laugh2:
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #241 on: October 22, 2020, 01:47:00 PM »
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  • I could see one being "R & R" and foregoing the New Mass as a personal decision in conscience, and I could see someone being Sede and rejecting the Conciliar popes and Mass as invalid and of or from imposters, but the position that true "popes" of Christ's Church and the "mass" they offer(ed) to God with fellow Catholics is "not licit to participate in" is so absurd as to practically invalidate the whole Trad movement by any association with it.  
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #242 on: October 22, 2020, 01:49:03 PM »
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  • a) If the new Mass as promulgated by Paul VI, in its original Latin, had been promulgated a century after Quo Primum, it would have been condemned as at least Protestant. (unproven assertion)

    a) Protestant = Blasphemous

    c) Therefore the Mass promulgated by Paul VI is blasphemous.

    Sorry, but this doesn't prove the new Mass is Blasphemous.  What specifically in the new Mass as promulgated by Paul VI is blasphemous?  And to be clear, I don't attend the new Mass.
    Please take a minute or two and read the interview in this post, it's not very long at all, it'll only take a few minutes and it answers your above points.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Veritatis

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #243 on: October 22, 2020, 01:53:16 PM »
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  • You offered Berakhot as evidence of "true religion." 
    I quoted Berakhot so you could see what it says in context, since the article you quoted referenced it as the source.  I didn't quote it as evident of true religion.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #244 on: October 22, 2020, 02:12:46 PM »
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  • Quote
    but the position that true "popes" of Christ's Church and the "mass" they offer(ed) to God with fellow Catholics is "not licit to participate in" is so absurd as to practically invalidate the whole Trad movement by any association with it. 
    It's not absurd at all.  As Fr Hesse said, the novus ordo (i.e. conciliar church) is a schismatic sect (i.e. might be valid but certainly illicit).  Same thing with the Church's views on the Orthodox...they could have valid sacraments, but they are definitely illicit. 
    .
    It's clear from Quo Primum that the new mass is illicit.  What many people have a problem with, is the idea that God would allow such illicitness to surround and permeate to the degree that it has, to upwards of 99% of the catholic population.  It's clear from catholic principles that such a thing is possible, so it's not absurd to say it has happened.
    .
    But this large schismatic fact does NOT mean that the V2 popes are free from heresy.  That's a separate issue.  Both could be true.


    Offline Mr G

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #245 on: October 22, 2020, 02:12:56 PM »
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  • So does anyone have any updates to confirm if John Salza actually left the SSPX and went back to the the Novus Ordo or Indult Mass?

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #246 on: October 22, 2020, 02:21:30 PM »
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  • Quote
    Question: But the people say that the people make the contention that pope Paul VI had the right so therefore we must accept it.

    Fr.That of course is a central question. We deny that he had such a right. That exactly is the point. We have every reason to question whether the pope had the authority to introduce a brand new mass, introduce a new Rite of the liturgy of the Western Church. We believe that when one reads Quo Primum of St. Pius V, he can see clearly that it is altogether forbidden for his successors, any of his successors to go contrary to this law.

    Here is a key question, whether a successor can override pope Pius V with regard to the establishment of the Rite of the Mass. It’s a key question.

    It was never considered that the pope could go contrary to this ruling because Quo Primum was issued to protect the Mass. It was as strong of legislation as the pope could possibly impose. If we say that his successor is not bound by this legislation, we have to say that the Church has no way of protecting it’s own liturgy. There is no doctrine that says that a pope cannot make a mistake, there’s no such doctrine.

    Stubborn, if Fr Hesse were alive today, i'd ask him this question:
    .
    Fr, I agree with you that Quo Primum prohibits a pope from overriding the True Mass, which Pope St Pius V codified.  I also agree with you that Quo Primum forbids a pope (or any cleric) from USING a new/changed liturgy.  But in reading Quo Primum, it does not ever prohibit the "legal creation" of a new liturgy, even though it would prohibit the use of such an illicit abomination. 
    .
    So isn't it possible that satan and his minions found a loophole in the law, and used it to create confusion, by creating a "competing liturgy" which they could offer to catholics, as an option?  This seems to be what happened and I don't see that Quo Primum prohibits it.  Is it against the spirit of the law?  Of course.  But is it against the letter of the law?  No.

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #247 on: October 22, 2020, 02:24:22 PM »
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  • Stubborn, if Fr Hesse were alive today, i'd ask him this question:
    .
    Fr, I agree with you that Quo Primum prohibits a pope from overriding the True Mass, which Pope St Pius V codified.  I also agree with you that Quo Primum forbids a pope (or any cleric) from USING a new/changed liturgy.  But in reading Quo Primum, it does not ever prohibit the "legal creation" of a new liturgy, even though it would prohibit the use of such an illicit abomination.  
    .
    So isn't it possible that satan and his minions found a loophole in the law, and used it to create confusion, by creating a "competing liturgy" which they could offer to catholics, as an option?  This seems to be what happened and I don't see that Quo Primum prohibits it.  Is it against the spirit of the law?  Of course.  But is it against the letter of the law?  No.
    But Trent anathematises anyone who asserts the rites of the Church may be sinful or blasphemous. So if the NO is either of those things, the law promulgating it must be invalid or else Trent would have been wrong.


    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #248 on: October 22, 2020, 02:29:51 PM »
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  • "If a Blessing was used by the true religion during the time of the Old Testament, why would you concluded based on that fact alone that it is cursed and blasphemous to use today?"

    Your "evidence" for the "use by true religion" was Berakhot and "from the time of Ezra."

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #249 on: October 22, 2020, 02:34:50 PM »
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    But Trent anathematises anyone who asserts the rites of the Church may be sinful or blasphemous. So if the NO is either of those things, the law promulgating it must be invalid or else Trent would have been wrong.
    .
    The NO is illicit, therefore it's not a "rite of the Church".  Trent applies only to those rites which are valid, legal and moral.  The NO is illicit, probably invalid, and definitely immoral (both due to it's illicitness and it's lack of rubrical structure and edits to prayers).
    .
    Secondly, a law is not valid/invalid.  It's either legal/illegal.  The law creating the NO is (arguably) legal.  All Paul 6 did was to legally say "a new missal is created".  His law does not put a stamp of approval on its validity or morality.  
    .
    The Church's legal structure is part of the human aspect of the Church.  It was created by man, for man, run by men.  Therefore, it is not protected by infallibility and even a not-yet-deposed heretical pope/bishop could still (in theory) have governmental/legal power.

    Offline claudel

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #250 on: October 22, 2020, 02:36:29 PM »
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  • The mass of five "popes" now counting, and of the millions of Catholics in communion with them?


    You've never left me in doubt that rational explanation is wasted on you. Thanks for the reminder that sniggering is your default response to virtually everything.


    Offline claudel

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #251 on: October 22, 2020, 02:39:08 PM »
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  • I could see one being "R & R" and foregoing the New Mass as a personal decision in conscience, and I could see someone being Sede and rejecting the Conciliar popes and Mass as invalid and of or from imposters, but the position that true "popes" of Christ's Church and the "mass" they offer(ed) to God with fellow Catholics is "not licit to participate in" is so absurd as to practically invalidate the whole Trad movement by any association with it.  


    Its absurdity wasn't plain to Archbishop Lefebvre, but of course he wasn't as smart as you.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #252 on: October 22, 2020, 02:45:08 PM »
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  • Stubborn, if Fr Hesse were alive today, i'd ask him this question:
    .
    Fr, I agree with you that Quo Primum prohibits a pope from overriding the True Mass, which Pope St Pius V codified.  I also agree with you that Quo Primum forbids a pope (or any cleric) from USING a new/changed liturgy.  But in reading Quo Primum, it does not ever prohibit the "legal creation" of a new liturgy, even though it would prohibit the use of such an illicit abomination.  
    .
    So isn't it possible that satan and his minions found a loophole in the law, and used it to create confusion, by creating a "competing liturgy" which they could offer to catholics, as an option?  This seems to be what happened and I don't see that Quo Primum prohibits it.  Is it against the spirit of the law?  Of course.  But is it against the letter of the law?  No.
    Not possible, Pope Pius V left no loopholes:"...Let all everywhere adopt and observe what has been handed down by the Holy Roman Church, the Mother and Teacher of the other churches, and let Masses not be sung or read according to any other formula than that of this Missal published by Us. This ordinance applies henceforth, now, and forever, throughout all the provinces of the Christian world..."

    The new "mass" is proof that it is as he says in the interview:

    "...It was never considered that the pope could go contrary to this ruling because Quo Primum was issued to protect the Mass. It was as strong of legislation as the pope could possibly impose. If we say that his successor is not bound by this legislation, we have to say that the Church has no way of protecting it’s own liturgy. There is no doctrine that says that a pope cannot make a mistake, there’s no such doctrine".
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline B from A

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #253 on: October 22, 2020, 02:49:19 PM »
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  • So does anyone have any updates to confirm if John Salza actually left the SSPX and went back to the the Novus Ordo or Indult Mass?
    I think somewhere earlier in this thread (which seems to me it ought to be in the sedevacantism sub-forum) there was a post by John Salza saying "no."  

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #254 on: October 22, 2020, 02:52:40 PM »
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  • Quote
    Not possible, Pope Pius V left no loopholes:"...Let all everywhere adopt and observe what has been handed down by the Holy Roman Church, the Mother and Teacher of the other churches, and let Masses not be sung or read according to any other formula than that of this Missal published by Us. This ordinance applies henceforth, now, and forever, throughout all the provinces of the Christian world..."

    But there is a loophole.  Read the above again.  Masses cannot be "sung or read" using any other missal.  Ok, that's clear.  No one can use the new mass missal.
    .
    But nowhere in Quo Primum does it prohibit the CREATION of a new missal.  I've read it a 100x.  It's not there.  So the loophole is that Paul 6 CREATED a new missal, which is legal, ....but no one can use it, as that's illegal.
    .
    The devil's in the details...and like the ultimate crafty lawyer, he uses the fine print against us.  As Scripture tells us, be wise as serpents...