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Author Topic: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo  (Read 19785 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
« Reply #225 on: October 22, 2020, 12:29:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: Veritatis on October 22, 2020, 11:53:53 AM
    Yes, I've read it several times. Very good indeed. I'm not defending the new Mass per se, I'm just just questioning if it is truly blasphemous.  I agree that it is a watered down liturgy, but that's different than a blasphemous liturgy.  
    Without getting into detail, suffice to say that had they try to perpetrate the new "mass" a hundred years after Quo Primum, it would have been wholly condemned as at least protestant, which is to say, blasphemous. The profanation of any holy thing is always a sacrilege.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline claudel

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #226 on: October 22, 2020, 12:39:35 PM »
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    • Quote from: Veritatis on October 22, 2020, 11:53:53 AM

    Yes, I've read it several times. Very good indeed. I'm not defending the new Mass per se, I'm just just questioning if it is truly blasphemous.  I agree that it is a watered down liturgy, but that's different than a blasphemous liturgy.  

    In December 2019, Father Peter Scott of the SSPX composed a brief analysis of the new mass in which he explained its inherently sinful nature and how that nature was yet not ipso facto dispositive of the mass's invalidity. I think you might gain a useful perspective from reading this instruction of his. Note especially the nuanced care he takes in characterizing the new mass as sacrilegious.

    It was, of course, Father Scott who, many years back, was entrusted with writing the official statement for the Society's website regarding the new mass and whether a Catholic could in good conscience actively participate in its celebration. The view he expressed—in brief, that the new mass is valid in se but not licit to participate in—is still the Society's position.
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    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #227 on: October 22, 2020, 12:40:02 PM »
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    • We Catholics are also familiar with your "blessings" and "benedictions."

    No matter the vaunted preface, those "blessings" and "benedictions" are curses upon God's NEW Chosen People.

    What deceitfulness too to pretend that something "from the time of Ezra" is automatically from God.

    Take your pilpul back to Hell with Lucifer's chosen people.

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    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #228 on: October 22, 2020, 12:53:45 PM »
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    • Quote from: Veritatis on October 22, 2020, 12:42:35 PM
    No wonder I misunderstood you. You were writing as a Jew, and I was understanding as a Catholic.
    And yet you, not I, tried to exculpate the "blessings" (curses!) of the "Torah," even conflating "from  the time of Ezra" with the inspired Word of God.
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    Offline Veritatis

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #229 on: October 22, 2020, 12:55:06 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on October 22, 2020, 12:29:14 PM
    Without getting into detail, suffice to say that had they try to perpetrate the new "mass" a hundred years after Quo Primum, it would have been wholly condemned as at least protestant, which is to say, blasphemous. The profanation of any holy thing is always a sacrilege.

    a) If the new Mass as promulgated by Paul VI, in its original Latin, had been promulgated a century after Quo Primum, it would have been condemned as at least Protestant. (unproven assertion)

    a) Protestant = Blasphemous 

    c) Therefore the Mass promulgated by Paul VI is blasphemous. 

    Sorry, but this doesn't prove the new Mass is Blasphemous.  What specifically in the new Mass as promulgated by Paul VI is blasphemous?  And to be clear, I don't attend the new Mass.
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    Offline Veritatis

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #230 on: October 22, 2020, 12:59:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mark 79 on October 22, 2020, 12:53:45 PM
    And yet you, not I, tried to exculpate the "blessings" (curses!) of the "Torah," even conflating "from  the time of Ezra" with the inspired Word of God.

    If a Blessing was used by the true religion during the time of the Old Testament, why would you concluded based on that fact alone that it is cursed and blasphemous to use today?

    And I did not conflate "from the time of Ezra" with the Word of God.  What I said is just because it is not recorded in Ezra does not mean it did not originate at the time of Ezra, which is what the article you linked to implied.
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    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #231 on: October 22, 2020, 01:00:39 PM »
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    • Quote from: Veritatis on October 22, 2020, 12:55:06 PM
    …What specifically in the new Mass as promulgated by Paul VI is blasphemous?  And to be clear, I don't attend the new Mass.
    Asked and answered.

    Quote
    Blasphemy (Greek blaptein, "to injure", and pheme, "reputation") signifies etymologically gross irreverence towards any person or thing worthy of exalted esteem.
    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02595a.htm

    They swapped the Spotless Victim for "made by human hands."
    THAT is blasphemous—and emblematic of the self-deification of тαℓмυdic Judaism.
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    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #232 on: October 22, 2020, 01:05:46 PM »
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    • Quote from: Veritatis on October 22, 2020, 12:59:13 PM
    If a Blessing was used by the true religion during the time of the Old Testament, why would you concluded based on that fact alone that it is cursed and blasphemous to use today?
    I didn't "conclude on that fact alone."
    I merely pointed out your rabbinical trick of inferring equivalence of Ezra and something "from the time of Ezra."
    Your ploy is analogous to inferring equivalence of Jesus Christ and Caiaphas "from the time of Jesus Christ."

    It is also revealing that you proselytize a sanitized vernacular translation of Berakhot as trustworthy evidence of what "was used by the true religion."
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    Offline Veritatis

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #233 on: October 22, 2020, 01:07:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mark 79 on October 22, 2020, 12:53:45 PM
    And yet you, not I, tried to exculpate the "blessings" (curses!) of the "Torah," even conflating "from  the time of Ezra" with the inspired Word of God.
    Where do you attend Mass?  Sedevacantist chapel?
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    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #234 on: October 22, 2020, 01:11:29 PM »
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    • Quote from: Veritatis on October 22, 2020, 01:07:11 PM
    Where do you attend Mass?  Sedevacantist chapel?
    Where do you attend shabbat? Chabad?
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    Offline claudel

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #235 on: October 22, 2020, 01:15:39 PM »
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    • Quote from: Veritatis on October 22, 2020, 01:07:11 PM

    Where do you attend Mass? Sedevacantist chapel?

    If you are demanding that someone else lay his cards on the table, surely you should do so, too. In life as in poker, when you call, you'd better have the cash to back up your ante.
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    Offline Veritatis

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #236 on: October 22, 2020, 01:21:29 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mark 79 on October 22, 2020, 01:11:29 PM
    Where do you attend shabbat? Chabad?
    You tell me where you attend Mass, and I'll tell you where I do.

    And I'm going to have to start using a Hebrew English dictionary to understand your Jєωιѕн posts.
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    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #237 on: October 22, 2020, 01:32:15 PM »
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    • Quote from: Veritatis on October 22, 2020, 01:21:29 PM
    You tell me where you attend Mass, and I'll tell you where I do.
    Your offering of Berakhot as evidence for "true religion" was a stunning reveal. Whether you are a marrano, an imposter, or just a convert whose conversion is incomplete, nothing about you is trustworthy. You have already displayed a penchant for тαℓмυdic pilpul, rabbinical deceptions, and apologia for the ѕуηαgσgυє, so I neither seek nor trust your analysis. 
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    Offline Veritatis

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #238 on: October 22, 2020, 01:34:31 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mark 79 on October 22, 2020, 01:32:15 PM
    Your offering of Berakhot as evidence for "true religion" was a stunning reveal.

    I offered the Berakhot because the article you quoted listed it as the source.  Apparently you gullibly believe whatever you read without checking it out.  I don't.

    Quote
    Whether you are a marrano, an imposter, or just a convert whose conversion is incomplete, nothing about you is trustworthy. You have already displayed a penchant for тαℓмυdic pilpul, rabbinical deceptions, and apologia for the ѕуηαgσgυє, so I neither seek nor trust your analysis.
    Where do you attend Mass?  I bet I can prove it is blasphemous.
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    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #239 on: October 22, 2020, 01:38:49 PM »
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    • Quote from: Veritatis on October 22, 2020, 01:34:31 PM
    I offered the Berakhot because the article you quoted listed it as the source.  
    Where do you attend Mass?  I bet I can prove it is blasphemous.
    You offered Berakhot as evidence of "true religion." You offered your "from the time of Ezra" ploy.
    I have only as much interest in you as I would have interest in shoveling something off my walkway lest my welcome guests step in it.
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