Author Topic: Japanese kept the Faith 200 years without Mass argument (Read 3643 times)

Matthew · « **on:** June 02, 2015, 09:06:59 PM »

I think this argument merits a closer look. Everyone -- certainly every home-aloner -- likes to bring up this argument when discussing the pros and cons of staying home from Mass on Sunday for dogmatic (rather than practical "there isn't a Mass available") reasons.

But DID they keep the Faith? How well did they? And what kind of culture was all around them? How anti-Christian was the surrounding culture? How much natural sanity was in the culture around them?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kakure_Kirishitan

Quote

In some cases, the communities drifted away from Christian teachings. They lost the meaning of the prayers and their religion became a version of the cult of ancestors, in which the ancestors happened to be their Christian martyrs.

Quote

The majority of Kakure Kirishitan rejoined the Catholic Church after renouncing unorthodox, syncretic practices. Some Kakure Kirishitan did not rejoin the Catholic Church, and became known as the Hanare Kirishitan (離れキリシタン, separated Christians).[1] Hanare Kirishitan are now primarily found in Urakami and on the Gotō Islands.[2]

Kept the Faith? Maybe parts of it. But I sure wouldn't want a "hidden Christian" to teach catechism to my children!

The next time someone throws out that argument, I'd be inclined to respond with "This isn't 17th century Japan."

Children respected their elders back then. There wasn't a powerful, seductive secular Pop Culture all around them. There were no such things as cell phones, mandatory secular public school, television, or Hollywood. People all had intact attention spans, and knew how to read and memorize things.

And the Natural Law was still the law of the land. Women were more feminine. Men were masculine. Both weren't perfect, being in the darkness of paganism. But they were closer to the ideal than the average worldly American today. Feminism, liberalism and other errors hadn't been invented yet.

Try keeping the Faith without priests, the Mass or sacraments in America 2015 -- good luck! You won't make it one generation, nevermind 7 generations.

Tiffany · « **Reply #1 on:** June 02, 2015, 10:37:29 PM »

Matthew who are you to say someone won't make it one generation?

ruthy · « **Reply #2 on:** June 02, 2015, 10:48:48 PM »

Quote from: Matthew

I think this argument merits a closer look. Everyone -- certainly every home-aloner -- likes to bring up this argument when discussing the pros and cons of staying home from Mass on Sunday for dogmatic (rather than practical "there isn't a Mass available") reasons.

But DID they keep the Faith? How well did they? And what kind of culture was all around them? How anti-Christian was the surrounding culture? How much natural sanity was in the culture around them?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kakure_Kirishitan

Quote
In some cases, the communities drifted away from Christian teachings. They lost the meaning of the prayers and their religion became a version of the cult of ancestors, in which the ancestors happened to be their Christian martyrs.

Quote
The majority of Kakure Kirishitan rejoined the Catholic Church after renouncing unorthodox, syncretic practices. Some Kakure Kirishitan did not rejoin the Catholic Church, and became known as the Hanare Kirishitan (離れキリシタン, separated Christians).[1] Hanare Kirishitan are now primarily found in Urakami and on the Gotō Islands.[2]

Kept the Faith? Maybe parts of it. But I sure wouldn't want a "hidden Christian" to teach catechism to my children!

The next time someone throws out that argument, I'd be inclined to respond with "This isn't 17th century Japan."

Children respected their elders back then. There wasn't a powerful, seductive secular Pop Culture all around them. There were no such things as cell phones, mandatory secular public school, television, or Hollywood. People all had intact attention spans, and knew how to read and memorize things.

And the Natural Law was still the law of the land. Women were more feminine. Men were masculine. Both weren't perfect, being in the darkness of paganism. But they were closer to the ideal than the average worldly American today. Feminism, liberalism and other errors hadn't been invented yet.

Try keeping the Faith without priests, the Mass or sacraments in America 2015 -- good luck! You won't make it one generation, nevermind 7 generations.

Try KEEPING the Faith with the priests, the Mass and sacraments, in America 2015!

Adolphus · « **Reply #3 on:** June 03, 2015, 12:15:14 AM »

Quote from: Matthew

I think this argument merits a closer look. Everyone -- certainly every home-aloner -- likes to bring up this argument when discussing the pros and cons of staying home from Mass on Sunday for dogmatic (rather than practical "there isn't a Mass available") reasons.

But DID they keep the Faith? How well did they? And what kind of culture was all around them? How anti-Christian was the surrounding culture? How much natural sanity was in the culture around them?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kakure_Kirishitan

I would like to have information from a different source than wikipedia...

And what are those "dogmatic reasons"?

What would you recommend to those who live in places where there is no Catholic Mass? Or at least, not Catholic Mass celebrated by a priest one can trust?

Adolphus · « **Reply #4 on:** June 03, 2015, 12:16:40 AM »

Quote from: ruthy

Try KEEPING the Faith with the priests, the Mass and sacraments, in America 2015!

That's fine for those who live where there are priests and Mass and sacraments...

Matthew · « **Reply #5 on:** June 03, 2015, 12:42:07 AM »

Quote from: Tiffany

Matthew who are you to say someone won't make it one generation?

Just my opinion, which I have a right to. My opinion is based on the dangers faced, knowledge of the modern world, and my observations over several decades of experience.

My argument for why a dogmatic home-aloner is dooming himself (or at least his children) to losing the Faith, comes from the words of St. Peter:

1 Peter 4:18
"And if the just man shall scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?"

I think you could paraphrase this quote, and it would be quite accurate:
"If the Traditional Catholic attending Mass every Sunday shall scarcely be able to resist the World, where shall the home aloner appear?"

From what I can see, one's odds are not good.

If even chuch-going Trads IN GENERAL have such a hard time fighting the world, what chance does a person have who doesn't get a little Catholic doctrinal booster shot every Sunday, plus all the graces from the Mass and sacraments? He would get no good influences from a priest (sermons, confessional advice, etc.) plus no fellow-Catholics to be influenced by?

Not a good picture.

I don't think people realize what good is done on a weekly basis by their attendance at Mass. You don't see it, you don't feel it, but I guarantee you there is a cuмulative effect. A positive one if you attend Mass, and a negative one if you're missing Mass regularly. Either way, you gain/lose a little something every Sunday, which adds up over time.

I know a Trad personally who stopped going to Mass (nevermind why) and his life has gone steadily downhill since. But "he" is not the only one. I could list countless cases I've seen in my lifetime, with varying degrees of severity.

Matthew · « **Reply #6 on:** June 03, 2015, 12:53:12 AM »

Quote from: Adolphus

Quote from: Matthew
I think this argument merits a closer look. Everyone -- certainly every home-aloner -- likes to bring up this argument when discussing the pros and cons of staying home from Mass on Sunday for dogmatic (rather than practical "there isn't a Mass available") reasons.

But DID they keep the Faith? How well did they? And what kind of culture was all around them? How anti-Christian was the surrounding culture? How much natural sanity was in the culture around them?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kakure_Kirishitan

I would like to have information from a different source than wikipedia...

And what are those "dogmatic reasons"?

What would you recommend to those who live in places where there is no Catholic Mass? Or at least, not Catholic Mass celebrated by a priest one can trust?

1. Go ahead and find another source. Wikipedia is convenient. It's common sense that one's Faith would take some serious hits over many generations, with no correcting influence from outside. Just look what the darkness of paganism did to the Primitive Revelation received by Adam and Eve. it got corrupted in every single country. The only question was: how much and in what way(s).

There are two kinds of "home aloners".

The first kind, which I don't really call "home aloners", are those who stay home every Sunday because of necessity. Example: Those who live in Arkansas. (The SSPX doesn't even have a chapel there -- that's pretty bad!)

The second kind, or home aloners properly speaking, are those who stay home for DOGMATIC reasons. Those who believe that some dogma prevents them or otherwise requires them to break communion with Group X which has a Mass within a short driving distance of them. To make things clear, I usually refer to these as "dogmatic home aloners". For example: Those who believe there are no valid priests left.
Generally speaking, those in this group are bitter, argumentative, have few friends, and consider 99.99% of those who consider themselves "Catholic" (even traditional Catholics) to be heretics. Not just heretics, but vitandi (formally excommunicated persons who must be shunned by the Faithful).

If you don't have access to the Mass, you obviously have a GOOD excuse for not attending Mass. But even still, it would be wise to try to rectify that deficiency, even if it means you take a hit to your lifestyle and income. Which is more important: material wealth, or picking tomatoes and living in poverty, but having access to the Mass? Every man must choose. We all have free will.

Stubborn · « **Reply #7 on:** June 03, 2015, 05:50:06 AM »

Quote from: Matthew

I think this argument merits a closer look. Everyone -- certainly every home-aloner -- likes to bring up this argument when discussing the pros and cons of staying home from Mass on Sunday for dogmatic (rather than practical "there isn't a Mass available") reasons.

But DID they keep the Faith? How well did they? And what kind of culture was all around them? How anti-Christian was the surrounding culture? How much natural sanity was in the culture around them?

Good point Matthew, I always wondered where the whole "Japan kept the faith after 200 years with no Mass" came from - did they keep the faith? I fail to see how anyone can even say that.

And how do we know there was no Mass there for 200 years? That is a hard one to swallow as well. This article from the Catholic Encyclopedia has a different story about that.

Quote from: CE

When in 1854, Commodore Perry forced an entry to Japan, it was learned that the Christian faith, after two centuries of intolerance, was not dead. In 1865, priests of the foreign Missions found 20,000 Christians practising their religion in secret at Kiushu.

Japan was never known as a Catholic country anyway imo, and for the last few centuries at least, Japan has been known as a country whose religion is Buddhism - how does that equate to keeping the faith? Pre-V2, Ireland and Poland, to name only two, were "Catholic countries", but Japan? All indications are that Japan lost the faith, not kept it.

Stubborn · « **Reply #8 on:** June 03, 2015, 07:23:20 AM »

Quote from: Adolphus

What would you recommend to those who live in places where there is no Catholic Mass? Or at least, not Catholic Mass celebrated by a priest one can trust?

I can make a recommendation based on what we did back in the early days of the revolution.
Stay home, read the Mass from your Missal as best as you can, and always keep seeking and searching and keep knocking.

And that, imo, is the key. Seek and you will find.

I can tell you that because we did the only thing we could do, stay home and read the Mass from our Missals - and my parents constantly asked, searched (seeked?) and knocked for years, that God was not kidding when He said to ask, seek and knock to get what you need.

If He did it for us, and He did, in His own time He most certainly will do it for you too, and for everyone who persists in seeking out a priest and the Mass.

Which is another thing I do not understand about the whole "200 years without the Mass" - to me, it means that no one in Japan even wanted it for 200 years, which makes no sense at all.

JPaul · « **Reply #9 on:** June 03, 2015, 07:39:35 AM »

The argument is now, academic at best. The Japanese had no control over their suppression. For a people to whom the Faith was introduced and not inherited they did the best that they could have. The Faith had not time to sink deep roots in that society.

The destruction of the Catholic Church and subsequent removal of the sacraments and rituals of the Church today, may bear a basic resemblance to that time but, the reality is entirely different.

Our problems hinge upon where one perceives the line which must not be crossed is to be placed.

Is it going to the Novus Ordo for your sacraments, attending a sedevacantist chapel, an SSPX chapel, a resistance, so called chapel, or an Eastern Catholic or Orthodox church?

Many of our clerics insist that the conciliar church is the Catholic Church, a half rotten one but still, the Church and the pope its head and authority. If this be so then where do these Catholics claim the right to stay home or reject the Novus Ordo, or its Indult half brother, when they are usually available a few blocks away, or across town?

The confusion and contradiction is in full bloom from top to bottom.
that some might find it necessary to abstain entirely to preserve their belief, and for those who cannot negotiate this morass to a moral conclusion, it is certainly understandable, and for some souls, it is most prudent.

We do not need to belittle the efforts of those Japanese Catholics to justify our own moral and religious decisions.

confederate catholic · « **Reply #10 on:** June 03, 2015, 11:09:25 AM »

Quote

Just because someone in the Church believes something false, whether it be due to simple ignorance or pride, does not automatically make them heretics. They're still Orthodox. A heretic is an unrepentant blasphemer who has been definitively condemned by the Church. If someone in the Church does not believe correctly, we simply correct them -- with love and understanding, not with contempt or maliciousness -- and pray for them. Saint Paul told us exactly how to deal with such people: he said to correct them once or twice, and if they accept that they had simply misunderstood or were in error and accept the true dogma, fine. But if they stick to their mistaken belief, refusing to accept the truth, he said to have nothing to do with them as such a person has "been perverted and sins."

excommunication and condemning people as heretics, especially clergy and hierarchs, is an extremely grievous thing to do, and the Church knows this. Both Arius and Nestorius remained in communion with the one Church for twenty or so years, since the hierarchs of sound mind greatly desired not only these men's salvation but that of their followers, and they did not want schism to take place. We have letters surviving to this day where Orthodox theologians wrote to these two men, addressing them as "holy bishop," asking their blessing, treating them with all manner of respect as any canonical bishop, but laying down the true theology of the Church and begging them to repent. Unfortunately, in the end, condemnation and excommunication (and thus schism) were the only things the Church could do to protect the faithful from the spread of these spiritual diseases.

Schism is a terrible thing. It rips apart nations and families. You have husbands and wives divorcing, parents, children and siblings not talking to one another, and so many terrible, terrible things that accompany such an action that the Holy Church of Christ, out of profound love for her children, tries to avoid this measure at all cost and tries desperately to get her erroring children to repent.

interesting quote i just read from a layman, thought it kind of proves matthews point

wallflower · « **Reply #11 on:** June 03, 2015, 12:42:50 PM »

I think the only time God gives us the graces to keep our Faith without the Mass is when HE imposes such a trial on us. When we decide it for ourselves, whether by lack of Faith, error, negligence or ignorance, then we and our children are in for a world of hurt.

PG · « **Reply #12 on:** June 03, 2015, 02:11:29 PM »

j.paul - good post.

"We do not need to belittle the efforts of those Japanese Catholics to justify our own moral and religious decisions. "

All of us have to make these decisions, whether we are in zion or babylon.

Matthew · « **Reply #13 on:** June 03, 2015, 02:40:05 PM »

Quote from: J.Paul

We do not need to belittle the efforts of those Japanese Catholics to justify our own moral and religious decisions.

I didn't mean to "belittle" them. More like do a reality check.

Were they able to keep the Faith, as in: The children of the 7th generation showed up for Mass when Japan opened up to the West in 1865, just like one of the families at your local Trad chapel, possessing the Catholic Faith?

Or were they severely "damaged" in their customs, doctrine, etc?

From what I can tell, the latter was the case.

I read about how a small group of these Catholics approached a Catholic priest, and asked where his wife was. When the priest said he didn't have one, they welcomed him, as he passed the test.

Great! So they preserved the idea of priestly celibacy. But that's a small portion of the Catholic Faith.

Even if they preserved the mandatory core beliefs of the Faith: the Incarnation, Redemption, the Trinity and the Final Judgment -- they could still have lost quite a bit. Not exactly a course I'd recommend for 21st century Catholics to embark upon for little or no reason.

You know, like the reason, "Fr. Pfeiffer isn't so sure about this priest..."

I think some people have gotten WAY too comfortable with cutting themselves off from other groups, staying home on Sunday, and other things. They think there's no downside at all! When the truth is the exact opposite.

songbird · « **Reply #14 on:** June 03, 2015, 03:03:43 PM »

From my readings, 65% of the Faith was intact, according to missionaries who went to Japan, when they could.

As for myself: If there was no Mass available, I would strive for a group 2 or more to come together for rosary for a start. I do believe there is more graces and indulgences when we can pray as a group. And reading the missal and readings, then a spiritual communion. I see the Japanese as instructing the faith and that would have been on going for over 200 years. Then the contrition, you do the best you could do.