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Author Topic: It Takes Two to Tango - NOT!  (Read 1651 times)

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Offline Matthew

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It Takes Two to Tango - NOT!
« on: July 11, 2015, 08:35:27 AM »
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  • When two men are found fighting each other, a bystander can always say,
    "It takes two to tango!" which means, "If BOTH parties didn't decide to go ahead and fight, there would be no fight. One party started it, but the other party accepted the challenge."

    This is not true about the Traditional Movement, nor the Resistance (which is a continuation of the former).

    Some simple-minded people might think so. They might muse aloud about "divisions", "sects" or "a house divided against itself". These arguments can be very convincing to the uneducated and the non-thinking person.

    But if, in fact, a division/split exists, the ten million dollar question is: Whose fault is it?

    If Joe was driving along one Sunday, following all the laws and driving a few miles under the speed limit, and got hit from the side by Bubba who ran a stop light, can a bystander (Alice) lecture BOTH drivers about defensive driving, driving carefully, obeying the laws, "I've been driving 40 years and I NEVER got in an accident.", etc.?

    I'm sure Joe wouldn't want to hear Alice's sanctimonious lecture about how she never experienced a car accident. This accident wasn't exactly Joe's fault, and he couldn't avoid it. It was bad luck. Joe would accuse Alice of being simple-minded, and he would be correct!

    Luther made a rift from the Catholic Church; it was his fault. He had new doctrines that were at variance with Catholic dogma. But there was "controversy in the Christian world". Should you forget about being Christian, or try to figure out who was in the wrong?

    Archbishop Lefebvre found himself apart from the Church structures. There was no unity. But it WAS NOT his fault, because in this case it was the Conciliar Church that had new doctrines at variance with Catholic dogma and practice. Archbishop Lefebvre was merely standing firm and staying Catholic.

    Likewise, a group of SSPX Catholics sitting in the pews in May 2012 were busy attending the Tridentine Mass and saying their Rosaries when it went public what +Fellay was up to. The "Letter of the One to the Three" and the "Letter of the Three to the One" were leaked, and now it became apparent that there was a serious split in the SSPX. But, again, the question is: Whose fault?

    The Catholics that simply want to continue +Lefebvre's mission, or the youngsters who have new ideas, who think they can do better than the Archbishop, etc. and start implementing wholesale changes to the organization on a global scale?

    I'm thinking it's the fault of the revolutionaries in both cases. The fault of the ones pushing change.

    And no, I'm not talking about changing where you attend Mass. That is merely  a reaction to the CHANGES being made by the revolutionaries to the existing Mass locations: new doctrines, new sermons, new mission statement, etc.

    You see, that's the problem. From far away, those who know nothing of the situation, it looks like you have two sides fighting. Two boys scrapping in the schoolyard. "It takes two to tango. Shame on you for being so divisive!" and in fact, the ignorant (who pride themselves on never going online or reading Trad Catholic forums) will even blame the Resistance ALONE, because to them it's the Resistance trying to push "change" by convincing people to leave and start a new chapel. To them, staying with the SSPX is the "conservative" position and the Resistance is the "radical" position.

    Were Traditional Catholics "radicals" when they left their local parishes to eventually start small Traditional Mass chapels? Were the people who stayed behind in their Novus Ordo parishes the "conservatives"?

    Yes, it's ironic in both cases, that those who stay the same physically (continuing to go to the same place for Mass) are not staying the same as far as the Faith. The Conciliarists should have had to leave the Church -- that's what all the other protestants throughout history did. The Catholic name should have been left to +Lefebvre and those who believed as he did.

    Likewise, in a perfect world +Fellay and his cabal -- including all the accordista priests who believe as he does -- should have left the SSPX to join the FSSP and have their Tridentine Mass under Rome, leaving the SSPX name and property to +Williamson and the other conservatives. But, alas, it is not a perfect world.

    So it was a grave injustice, and a chastisement from God. He has His reasons for allowing this.

    So let us always remember where the blame belongs, and not blame +Lefebvre for the Crisis in the Church -- nor +Williamson for the Crisis in the SSPX. Neither prelate created those crises -- they just reacted properly and in a Catholic manner to them. Their hands were forced by the dictates of morality, justice, and duty to do what they did.

    And their hands are completely spotless of the crime of "division, strife" and all similar charges.

    I will say one more thing: even if there were a division in the Resistance, it would behoove each person to look closely and try to figure out who is at fault, being as objective as possible. There might be fault on this or that side, or even BOTH sides. The fault could be A, B, or AB. Those are all valid possibilities.
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    Offline TKGS

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    It Takes Two to Tango - NOT!
    « Reply #1 on: July 11, 2015, 09:06:18 AM »
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  • You see that attitude all the time in the secular press.  No matter what the issue some dolt will always, and I mean always, gratuitously announce, "Of course, there are faults on both sides of the issue."  In fact, in most cases, the fault is solely on the side of the progressives, the liberals, the Protestants, the Modernists, in short, the ѕуηαgσgυє of Satan.

    And the same goes in the spiritual realm as well.  The fault of division is most assuredly not with traditionalists who keep the faith of the apostles and the ancient traditions handed down through the ages.  The fault lies with those who wish to change doctrines and traditions to suit the ѕуηαgσgυє of Satan.

    We're seeing more and more of this problem, and the world hates us for it.  In the eyes of the world, we are at fault.  This is a fact and there shows no sign at all that anything will change for the better in our lifetimes.


    Offline Matthew

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    It Takes Two to Tango - NOT!
    « Reply #2 on: July 11, 2015, 09:20:12 AM »
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  • I brought up this topic because I *know for a fact* that some Traditional Catholics of good will have these questions in their minds.

    How do I know it for a fact? Well, I know quite a few Trads myself and one of them asked me the very thing I quoted. "Aren't divisions bad... etc." And since I know this person, I know them to be of good will.

    So there are some very good yet very confused people out there. I waste time running CathInfo and writing posts on CathInfo in the hopes that I will reach some of them, and help them cut through the confusion, at least somewhat.

    If I can make things clearer for a few confused Catholics, then it was all worth it. A.M.D.G.
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    Offline JPaul

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    It Takes Two to Tango - NOT!
    « Reply #3 on: July 11, 2015, 12:07:01 PM »
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  • Many people cannot discern fault and assign blame because they have become softened by the subjective soup in which we daily swim.
    Lost in second guessing the meaning of what they see and hear, and humming the tune of "we must not judge". That is the resonant frequency of the Judaized culture that we live in.
    "Well, maybe he doesn't really mean to do those things" as he or she continues to do such things over and over.

    You cannot chart your course and avoid dangerous or troublesome people, if you cannot make simple objective judgments about who is doing what and whether that is a good or a bad thing and should I avoid those people and the harm that the might cause me.

    Offline Stubborn

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    It Takes Two to Tango - NOT!
    « Reply #4 on: July 11, 2015, 01:59:41 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    I brought up this topic because I *know for a fact* that some Traditional Catholics of good will have these questions in their minds.

    How do I know it for a fact? Well, I know quite a few Trads myself and one of them asked me the very thing I quoted. "Aren't divisions bad... etc." And since I know this person, I know them to be of good will.

    So there are some very good yet very confused people out there. I waste time running CathInfo and writing posts on CathInfo in the hopes that I will reach some of them, and help them cut through the confusion, at least somewhat.

    If I can make things clearer for a few confused Catholics, then it was all worth it. A.M.D.G.


    I've been with the SSPX since it began with a few years off before and after the SV split, and while I noticed an abrupt difference in the sermons 3 or 4 years ago, I didn't really know what to make of it.  

    It all came together for me rather quickly after I first heard of the whole +Fellay/+Williamson/Resistance fiasco here on Cathinfo - so please do not say you are wasting time running and posting on Cathinfo Matthew.  

    Not sure what all is involved in running this site, but surely I speak for a lot of others and will say you do not waste your time here! Other than that, just want to say thanks!
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline JPaul

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    It Takes Two to Tango - NOT!
    « Reply #5 on: July 11, 2015, 02:31:07 PM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn
    Quote from: Matthew
    I brought up this topic because I *know for a fact* that some Traditional Catholics of good will have these questions in their minds.

    How do I know it for a fact? Well, I know quite a few Trads myself and one of them asked me the very thing I quoted. "Aren't divisions bad... etc." And since I know this person, I know them to be of good will.

    So there are some very good yet very confused people out there. I waste time running CathInfo and writing posts on CathInfo in the hopes that I will reach some of them, and help them cut through the confusion, at least somewhat.

    If I can make things clearer for a few confused Catholics, then it was all worth it. A.M.D.G.


    I've been with the SSPX since it began with a few years off before and after the SV split, and while I noticed an abrupt difference in the sermons 3 or 4 years ago, I didn't really know what to make of it.  

    It all came together for me rather quickly after I first heard of the whole +Fellay/+Williamson/Resistance fiasco here on Cathinfo - so please do not say you are wasting time running and posting on Cathinfo Matthew.  

    Not sure what all is involved in running this site, but surely I speak for a lot of others and will say you do not waste your time here! Other than that, just want to say thanks!


    I second the motion. Folks will never learn how to tell the difference, unless someone explains it to them.

    "And he said: Thinkest thou that thou understandest what thou readest?  

    Who said: And how can I, unless some man shew me?"

    Offline Matthew

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    It Takes Two to Tango - NOT!
    « Reply #6 on: October 14, 2015, 11:58:08 AM »
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  • Bump!
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