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Author Topic: It's Over  (Read 1502 times)

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Offline donkath

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It's Over
« on: July 18, 2021, 07:54:07 AM »
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    • Archbishop Lefebvre revisited


    Archbishop Lefebvre’s Recommendations
    to the 4 bishops-elect, June 12, 1988      

    June 12, 1988

    "It's over. The talks between Rome and ourselves are over. The more one thinks about it, the more one realizes their intentions are not good. Look at what happened to the Traditional leaders, Dom Augustin, Fr. de Blignieres, who went over to Rome and have been swallowed up. Rome wants everything to go Vatican II, while they leave us a little bit of Tradition.

    "De Saventhem [then President of the conservative (not Traditional) organization, "Una Voce"] tells me we could still come to an understanding. But I tell him the misunderstanding is not over little things. They are not changing their position. We cannot put ourselves in the hands of those people. We would be fooling ourselves. We do not mean to let ourselves be eaten up.

    "The Traditional Benedictine Prior, Dom Gerard, tells me that an agreement with Rome would have opened up for us a huge field for the apostolate.Maybe, but in a world of ambiguity, facing in two directions at once, which would make us go rotten in the end. They insist: "But if you were with Rome, you would have more vocations." But vocations like that, if you breathed one word against Rome, would make life in our seminaries impossible! And if we "came to an agreement" with Rome on that basis, then the diocesan bishops would say "Then come along and join in the dioceses", and little by little Tradition would be compromised.

    "All the Traditional Sisters and nuns in France are against an agreement. They tell me, "We do not want to be dependent on Cardinal Ratzinger. Imagine if he were to come and give us conferences! He would split us down the middle!"

    "As for the risk of some of our priests leaving us if bishops are consecrated, it will be no worse than in 1977, when a block of priests and seminarians walked out of Econe all in one go. They have all now gone over to Rome or dispersed. It is time to take a second decision to face up to this Rome. What else can we do? And if they insist that it is worse this time round, because this time it could mean excommunication, well, I reply that the basic problem remains unchanged: Rome means to exterminate Tradition, while the sedevacantists have no love for us.

    [...........] "Your function will be to give the sacraments of Holy Orders and Confirmation and to KEEP THE FAITH on the occasion of Confirmations, to protect the flock... You will be an immense support for the Society. Let all four of you be of one mind, without too many personal initiatives, for instance when it comes to requests for ordination. Do not ordain men who are on their own, and if they form part of a community, take a good look at the community.

    "Rome wants us to go Conciliar [.........] And then, as I told the Pope, as soon as Tradition comes back to Rome, the problem will be over.

    "As for an eventual excommunication, it will mean nothing, because they are not looking out for the wellbeing of the Church. However, excommunicating us will be a nuisance for them. They are trying to get to me by fair means or foul, through de Saventhem, a Czech bishop, and so on and so on. They even wanted to send Mother Theresa of Calcutta. But there is no point in such meetings. It has all been talked out long ago.

    "Let anyone just read the letter of the former seminarian of Econe, Carlo, who went over to Rome to set up a conservative organisation there, called "Mater Ecclesix", who tried to corrupt our seminarians by getting them to leave us, but whose eyes have since been opened wide by the trickery of Rome. In that letter he admits that Rome treats them like outcasts, that they are forced to take off the cassock, that nobody receives them. He has found out what this Rome is like. Rome wants to turn the Society into another "Mater Ecclesiae". And when the first "Mater Ecclesiae" collapsed, Cardinal Ratzinger rejoiced.

    "So why should they keep their word to us? We were protected by God when He allowed the agreement of May 5 to come to naught."

    Archbishop Lefebvre  Source


    Last edited: May 23, 2017
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: It's Over
    « Reply #1 on: July 18, 2021, 08:29:28 AM »
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    • It must be, because aside from the surprising blurb on the SSPX French District website, I just heard my first anti-modernist/Rome/Vatican 2 sermon in 8 years, in which, among other things, the priest declared the MP “an attack upon the Mass by enemies of the Faith,” and pondered the strangeness of such a docuмent emanating from the one who Christ sent to be His Vicar over the Church.

    He mentioned an SSPX response would likely be forthcoming in the next week or so.

    Obviously, the Resistance is FULLY vindicated by the mask dropping from the face of the Roman enemies.

    If the SSPX believed the alleged changes in Rome (supposedly evinced by SP and the lifting of the excommunications) justified a reciprocal change in the SSPX regarding an agreement, that charade is now dead (and this new situation should logically, then, result in a proportionate retrenchment and retreat by the Society):

    Yes, Fr. Simoulin, we must become 1988ers again.

    But does Fr. Paul Robinson still consider the FSSP a safer venue than the Resistance?

    What I heard from the pulpit today was that the Ecclesia Dei groups were compromises, now doomed to starvation by the new MP (which seems to preclude any additional churches for them).

    Eyes are opening.

    To whatever extent the Resistance served as a counterweight to a suicidal accord (and it clearly did, thanks primarily to +BW), it is owed an apology and a thank you by many in the SSPX.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: It's Over
    « Reply #2 on: July 18, 2021, 10:22:34 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on July 18, 2021, 08:29:28 AM
    It must be, because aside from the surprising blurb on the SSPX French District website, I just heard my first anti-modernist/Rome/Vatican 2 sermon in 8 years, in which, among other things, the priest declared the MP “an attack upon the Mass by enemies of the Faith,” and pondered the strangeness of such a docuмent emanating from the one who Christ sent to be His Vicar over the Church.
    Same at my SSPX chapel, it was a great sermon for a change. He even preached strict EENS for a solid 5 minutes and  massacred the MP, new mass and new religion. It would be awesome if the things he said for the first time since I don't know when, was representative of the position of the SSPX as a whole. The MP or something really lit a fire under him, that's for sure.
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    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: It's Over
    « Reply #3 on: July 18, 2021, 10:31:34 AM »
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    • Supposing the SSPX is now back -despite its efforts toward reconciliation with modernist Rome- to its 1984-1997/9 position, what now between them and the Resistance?

    Obviously, some like Fr. Pfeiffer have said and done too much to ever go or be invited back.

    But if it is now dawning upon the SSPX that the Resistance was the best friend they ever had, how do they respond (if at all)?

    I realize this is all a bit premature, especially in front of the forthcoming SSPX response.

    I also realize all too human impediments (bad blood from 10 years of opposition).

    But supposing that the SSPX was now to revert back to their old positions, and thereby become intentionally or otherwise, an ally of the Resistance, does the Resistance remain independent of the SSPX, to prevent a replay of 2000-2021?

    Do they reunify to increase strength?

    Does the SSPX now begin to promote and champion Vigano?

    It is an interesting time to be alive!
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline mcollier

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    Re: It's Over
    « Reply #4 on: July 18, 2021, 11:20:11 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on July 18, 2021, 10:31:34 AM
    Supposing the SSPX is now back -despite its efforts toward reconciliation with modernist Rome- to its 1984-1997/9 position, what now between them and the Resistance?

    Obviously, some like Fr. Pfeiffer have said and done too much to ever go or be invited back.

    But if it is now dawning upon the SSPX that the Resistance was the best friend they ever had, how do they respond (if at all)?

    I realize this is all a bit premature, especially in front of the forthcoming SSPX response.

    I also realize all too human impediments (bad blood from 10 years of opposition).

    But supposing that the SSPX was now to revert back to their old positions, and thereby become intentionally or otherwise, an ally of the Resistance, does the Resistance remain independent of the SSPX, to prevent a replay of 2000-2021?

    Do they reunify to increase strength?

    Does the SSPX now begin to promote and champion Vigano?

    It is an interesting time to be alive!
    The SSPX needs bishops. 
    +W provided them. Almost like he saw the stitches on the fastball (like so many other things occurring in the world).
    Will the SSPX avail themselves of these bishops? Who knows... but it would be a great thing to witness to see Bishop Williamson vindicated/restored by the SSPX along with the other three bishops and possibly +Vigano. 
    Many Catholics will need somewhere to go for the sacraments and to hold onto the Faith. It would be a great thing to see the SSPX return to the true defense of the Faith. 
    Realistic? Time will tell..
    Saint Marcel Lefebvre pray for us. 
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: It's Over
    « Reply #5 on: July 18, 2021, 11:27:42 AM »
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    • This ^^^^
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: It's Over
    « Reply #6 on: July 18, 2021, 12:40:59 PM »
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    • SSPX should issue a public apology to the Resistance and invite them back ... well, except for "Bishop" Pfeiffer.  Maybe if he got straightened out, and then it would be as priest, since his orders are dubious.  And I would not conditionally consecrate him, since he's unfit.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: It's Over
    « Reply #7 on: July 18, 2021, 12:43:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: JeanPaul on July 18, 2021, 12:27:40 PM
    No, because the Resistance are practical Sedevacantists. They are against discussions with Rome in principle, whereas the SSPX is not and has never been, as Abp. Lefebvre made clear “When Rome calls, we go.”

    What on earth makes you think we’d take you scuм back anyway? It took long enough to get rid of you.

    When did this^ sorry excuse for a human being sign up?  You represent your point of view very well in calling those who disagree with you "scuм".

    There are more lies in your post than there are sentences (since you pack several of them into a couple).  
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: It's Over
    « Reply #8 on: July 18, 2021, 01:28:16 PM »
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    • Quote from: JeanPaul on July 18, 2021, 12:27:40 PM

    What on earth makes you think we’d take you scuм back anyway? It took long enough to get rid of you.

    Ahh, the SSPX Shill returneth!

    I have a bonus for you:

    Not only is this account shortly to be banned, but one of your other sock puppets (Trento), after you were so patient for 275 posts, is about to bite the dust as well.

    Is anyone surprised the Shill would return this weekend?
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: It's Over
    « Reply #9 on: July 18, 2021, 01:30:29 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on July 18, 2021, 12:43:03 PM
    When did this^ sorry excuse for a human being sign up?  You represent your point of view very well in calling those who disagree with you "scuм".

    There are more lies in your post than there are sentences (since you pack several of them into a couple).  

    Back in 2012.

    Since then, he's had at least 3 dozen sleeper and sock puppet accounts, and many more he hasn't activated.

    Most of the time, you can tell it is the Menzingen Shill, because despite being a brand new account activated the same day, his new creations never show up in the "Latest Member" list.

    And because Matthew refuses to institute a quarantine policy, we just have to let him spew vomit until Matthew happens to log in, time after time.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: It's Over
    « Reply #10 on: July 18, 2021, 02:43:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on July 18, 2021, 12:43:03 PM
    When did this^ sorry excuse for a human being sign up?  You represent your point of view very well in calling those who disagree with you "scuм".

    There are more lies in your post than there are sentences (since you pack several of them into a couple).  
    It's a lame neo-SSPX shill. I guess they pay him to come online and spew propaganda, try to guide the conversation?
    I agree -- there were many outright lies in his post, that were clearly contradicted by the facts which can be easily verified. 
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    Offline jvk

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    Re: It's Over
    « Reply #11 on: July 18, 2021, 04:06:16 PM »
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    • Back to the question: what about the SSPX?  

    The problem lies not only with the priests but with the faithful.  As Matthew pointed out in another post, they're like sheep and don't think.  Sure, they'd follow along blindly, but they still wouldn't "get it".  So I think the Resistance faithful that are NOT attending SSPX now would risk becoming blinded by the same reasoning -- eventually-- if they went back.   
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    Offline trento

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    Re: It's Over
    « Reply #12 on: July 19, 2021, 01:05:33 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on July 18, 2021, 01:28:16 PM
    Ahh, the SSPX Shill returneth!

    I have a bonus for you:

    Not only is this account shortly to be banned, but one of your other sock puppets (Trento), after you were so patient for 275 posts, is about to bite the dust as well.

    Is anyone surprised the Shill would return this weekend?
    Excuse me, but I'm not related to JeanPaul. Please stop being presumptuous.
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    Offline LeDeg

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    Re: It's Over
    « Reply #13 on: July 19, 2021, 08:35:25 AM »
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    • Quote from: StClovis on July 19, 2021, 06:58:21 AM


    There will be no reunion because the Resistance are not Catholic.
    Is the Novus Ordo Catholic?
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: It's Over
    « Reply #14 on: July 19, 2021, 11:19:04 AM »
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    • Clovis: "All you have is the delete key, that's how weak your arguments are."

    Is that how weak your logic is?

    So it's not possible for someone to LIE or spread baseless propaganda? Everything distasteful, to-be-deleted must necessarily be true?

    I think most users know that there are individuals capable of lying, distorting, misleading, and YES even spreading propaganda. That is who gets banned on CathInfo. Those telling concrete lies that can be disproven by a quick Google or Cathinfo search for evidence.
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