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Author Topic: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX  (Read 6570 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Really? Do you have a reference for this, Rum? I guess he would have preferred the Archbishop had chosen a few more prudent turncoats so they could have remained united amongst themselves... As one of the SSPX priests told us when the Resistance was starting: we need to stay united, that way we have more strength. Talk about Vatican IIb. "Stay in the Church and fight from within"! History repeats.

See here, beginning at 1:32:43 -



PS: As long as you are watching this conference, back up a few minutes to 1:25:28 - 1:30:00 for some critical history (especially from 1:27:50, which has come true since then).
Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

Offline JimPlato

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The author confuses defect of form and defect of intention. The SSPX have never claimed any of the New Rites are defective per se. Any conditional re-ordinations done in the past were due to defect of intention, which were done on a case by case basis and usually involved something the minister had said or done that may give a positive doubt regarding his intention.

Bp. Tissier de Mallerais no longer holds the episcopal consecration form is invalid. Indeed, implicit in his private letter (which was based on a rushed reading of Cosmaraswany's booklet), is that he would also have to conclude that the old Abyssinian/Coptic rites must be invalid since they used the same form – something the Church has never said even when dealing with Anglican Orders (Anglicans used this in their defense). Rather, the form doesn’t become invalid but indeterminate and the correct intention is provided ex adjunctis.

Another error Bp. TdM makes is in his claim that the power to confirm is supplied to a simple priest. Firstly, the Church has never defined what power is delegated by the pope; it could be one of order, or jurisdiction, or some order/jurisdiction hybrid, or some other unknown third power. But the supplementary principle will only supply jurisdiction. Secondly, if a delegated power of the pope can be supplied then why not the delegated power to ordain? There are at least three instances in medieval times where three different popes have delegated power to simple priests to ordain to the diaconate and priesthood. It is now generally accepted that a priest is the extraordinary minister of ordination.


Offline SeanJohnson

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The author confuses defect of form and defect of intention. The SSPX have never claimed any of the New Rites are defective per se. Any conditional re-ordinations done in the past were due to defect of intention, which were done on a case by case basis and usually involved something the minister had said or done that may give a positive doubt regarding his intention.

Bp. Tissier de Mallerais no longer holds the episcopal consecration form is invalid. Indeed, implicit in his private letter (which was based on a rushed reading of Cosmaraswany's booklet), is that he would also have to conclude that the old Abyssinian/Coptic rites must be invalid since they used the same form – something the Church has never said even when dealing with Anglican Orders (Anglicans used this in their defense). Rather, the form doesn’t become invalid but indeterminate and the correct intention is provided ex adjunctis.

Another error Bp. TdM makes is in his claim that the power to confirm is supplied to a simple priest. Firstly, the Church has never defined what power is delegated by the pope; it could be one of order, or jurisdiction, or some order/jurisdiction hybrid, or some other unknown third power. But the supplementary principle will only supply jurisdiction. Secondly, if a delegated power of the pope can be supplied then why not the delegated power to ordain? There are at least three instances in medieval times where three different popes have delegated power to simple priests to ordain to the diaconate and priesthood. It is now generally accepted that a priest is the extraordinary minister of ordination.

Great post, but I do have some questions:

1) Regarding +de Mallerais' present position on the NREC:

Has he stated that he no longer harbors any doubts, or are you making this argument on his behalf (i.e., based upon the implicit contradiction which arises from his presumed acceptance of the Abyssinian/Coptic rites)?   

I ask because it is possible -however unlikely- that he could still harbor doubts on the NREC, not realizing the implications/contradiction regarding the Abyssinian/Coptic rites.

In any case, your point is a good one.


2) Regarding the ex adiunctis argument:

Someone here (Ladislaus?) made the argument that Michael Davies'/+Williamson's ex adiunctis argument would rob the rite of any "essential form," thereby making it unessential. 

The obvious argument against this is that either:

A) the Church would not endorse such a principle were that truly the case

or

B) It is not integral to the validity of a sacramental rite that there actually be any essential form.

I recall Fr. Thierry Gaudray thundering in the Winona seminary that JP II's then-recent recognition of the Nestorian Anaphora (which he said had no explicit form of cosecration) was perhaps the most serious error in the post-conciliar disaster until that point.

Anyway, do you have any sources which can help clarify what the Church teaches in this regard?


3) Regarding +de Mallerais' alleged error (I say "alleged" out of respect for him) that the power to confirm is supplied to a simple priest:

I'm inclined to agree this is erroneous, based on a recent thread regarding Fr. Arrizaga.  If the NREC is valid, this is not a concrete problem, but if itis not, there would be implications for +Lazo's confirmations.

The reason the matter is not settled for me is that in a Nov/2022 interview with +Williamson in which he explained the ex adiunctis argument in relation to the NREC, he said that even the use of that principle does not remove all doubt regarding form.  Also, because Fr. Calderon still expresses his doubts on the matter (and a theologian of his caliber would certainly not be oblivious of the ex adiunctis argument/principle).



4) Regarding a supposed delegated power of a priest to ordain:

I am aware of the examples regarding these Roman delegations (which also arose in the recent Arrizaga confirmations thread), but I was also under the impression that, since they were quickly revoked/recalled after protest (at least as regards the Bul in England. See here: https://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/index.php?topic=15152.0 ), they could not easily be used as solid precedents for supposing priests were extraordinary ministers of ordination.

Can you provide more information in this regard?  The notion that "it is generally accepted that a priest is the extraordinary minister of ordination" is a new one to me (although I do know they can be delegated to confer minor orders and the subdiaconate).

Thanks in advance!
Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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I would prefer to see the entire context of the email.
Maybe you can write the Dominicans and mention our discussion here, then kindly ask to get a copy of the email.  

Offline Marulus Fidelis

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Bp. Tissier de Mallerais no longer holds the episcopal consecration form is invalid. Indeed, implicit in his private letter (which was based on a rushed reading of Cosmaraswany's booklet), is that he would also have to conclude that the old Abyssinian/Coptic rites must be invalid since they used the same form – something the Church has never said even when dealing with Anglican Orders (Anglicans used this in their defense). Rather, the form doesn’t become invalid but indeterminate and the correct intention is provided ex adjunctis.
Just to briefly comment that Fr. Cekada destroyed these errors about eastern rites using the new form. If you haven't read Cekada you haven't studied the issue, simple as.

Now to what I think is the crux of this ex adjunctis argument.

Is it necessary to say the adjunctis for the validity of the rite? Yes or no.

If your answer is yes you actually believe the whole rite is the form which is false.

If your answer is no then you imply the rite is actually invalid since an optional component is essential for validity.

Where is the fault in the logic?



Offline Ladislaus

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2) Regarding the ex adiunctis argument:

Someone here (Ladislaus?) made the argument that Michael Davies'/+Williamson's ex adiunctis argument would rob the rite of any "essential form," thereby making it unessential. 

I'm not sure about the context, but the only thing I said about the adjuncta is that the adjuncta by themselves could invalidate even if the essential form were intact.  I don't believe that "good" adjuncta can supply for a lack of valid essential form.  It was Pope Leo XIII who stated that even after the Anglicans had scrambled to "fix" their defective form, the adjuncta were still so defective that the rite remained invalid.

Offline Plenus Venter

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SeanJohnson made reference to it in a couple posts:

https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/bishop-tissier-de-malleraiss-sermon-for-pentecost/30/

https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-sermons/'eleison-comments'-by-mgr-williamson-16-february-2013/15/
Thanks for that, Rum, much appreciated. 
I see the pertinent quote from Sean: Bishop Tissier also wrote a letter to bishop Williamson saying basically it was a mistake for Archbishop Lefebvre to have consecrated him (revealed by Bishop Williamson in his December Toronto conference).
It looks like Sean has now posted that conference on this thread, with thanks!

Offline Plenus Venter

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The only way to save the new rite of episcopal consecration is if the entire preface is considered the form, in that case it does appear to meet the requirements that Pope Pius XII laid down in Sacramentum Ordinis, because the entire preface does mention the power of the high priesthood and the Holy Ghost. If i recall correctly, the rite of episcopal consecration in the eastern rites has the entire preface as the form, and not just a few words like in the roman rite. The only problem with this theory is that Paul VI said that the few words which includes the phrase "governing spirit" is to be considered the form.
Well, that is in fact the meaning of Sacramentum Ordinis:

Sacramentum Ordinis - Papal Encyclicals

in the Episcopal Ordination or Consecration, the matter is the imposition of hands which is done by the Bishop consecrator. The form consists of the words of the “Preface,” of which the following are essential and therefore required for validity:

Just because the said words are essential, does not mean that the whole preface is not part of the form. It is, according to this docuмent. And of course, those 'essential words' are different in the other rites. Sacramentum Ordinis lays down the principles:

3. All agree that the Sacraments of the New Law, as sensible signs which produce invisible grace, must both signify the grace which they produce and produce the grace which they signify. Now the effects which must be produced and hence also signified by Sacred Ordination to the Diaconate, the Priesthood, and the Episcopacy, namely power and grace, in all the rites of various times and places in the universal Church, are found to be sufficiently signified by the imposition of hands and the words which determine it.

Don't misunderstand, I'm not arguing in favour of the new rite's validity. It's disputed, and I believe the only way that dispute can be resolved definitively is by the Magisterium which is on strike at the moment! However, I do consider it rash to definitively declare it certainly invalid when there are theological opinions to the contrary.


Offline Plenus Venter

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The only problem with this theory is that Paul VI said that the few words which includes the phrase "governing spirit" is to be considered the form.
Paul VI said that? Do you have a reference for me please Dusty?
Was it an infallible declaration?

Offline Plenus Venter

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Paul VI said that? Do you have a reference for me please Dusty?
Was it an infallible declaration?
I've answered my own question, thanks Dusty!

Finally, in the Ordination of a Bishop, the matter is the imposition of hands, performed in silence by the consecrating Bishops, or at least by the principal Consecrator, over the head of the Bishop-elect before the prayer of consecration. The form consists of the words of the same prayer of consecration, of which the following pertain to the essence of the rite, and hence are required for validity: "And now pour forth on this chosen one that power which is from you, the governing Spirit, whom you gave to your beloved Son Jesus Christ, whom be gave to the holy Apostles, who founded the Church in every place as your sanctuary, unto the glory and unending praise of your name." (Et nunc effunde super hunc electum eam virtutem, quae a te est, Spiritum principalem, quem dedisti dilecto Filio Tuo Jesu Christo, quem ipse donavit sanctis Apostolis, qui constituerunt Ecclesiam per singula loca, ut sanctuarium tuum, in gloriam et laudem indeficientem nominis tui) .

We ourselves, therefore, by Our Apostolic authority, approve the rite for the conferring of the sacred Orders of the Diaconate, the Presbyterate, and the Episcopate, a rite revised by the Consilium ad exsequendam Constitutionem de sacra Liturgia "after consultation with bishops from various parts of the world and with the aid of experts." (10), so that henceforth it may be used in the conferring of these Orders in place of the rite still found in the Roman Pontifical. - Paul VI, Pontificalis Romani, 1968


What is the prayer of the Consecration, since this is the form, that is the question. I can't put my hand on it right now, but no doubt this has all been discussed on another thread so sorry for derailing this one!

Here are a few thoughts from onepeterfive:

Objection 3: “Context” doesn’t matter. Only the essential form itself does.
Yes and no. The context plays a role in understanding what the words within the essential form itself mean. Thus, when there is a reference to “Spirit Who gives the Grace of High Priesthood” in the portion immediately after the essential form, that matters not because the words surrounding the form could confect the Sacrament validly, but because the meaning of the words in the essential form itself are thereby made clear.

So, Sixth, we have clear references to the Office of Bishop. This is not a rite for anything other than the Consecration of a Bishop to an Episcopal Office. An objection is made that the rite was sometimes used for Patriarchs, but that was when Patriarchs received Consecration upon their installation into office. The true but more developed doctrine of the distinction between Orders and Jurisdiction was more fully understood later on.

Seventh, we have references to “the Spirit Who gives the Grace of High Priesthood.” This signifies unequivocally both (1) the Grace of the Holy Ghost and (2) the specific Order of the Episcopate and confirms that “the Governing Spirit Whom You gave to Your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, the Spirit given by Him to His holy Apostles, who founded the Church” is the Spirit Who gives the Grace of High Priesthood, the Power of the Episcopate.

Eighth, not to belabour the point, but only to remove all unnecessary doubt and scruple, we have the final reference to the “authority You gave to Your Apostles,” a manifest reference to Episcopal Authority, also confirmed by reference to assigning ministries etc.

Fr. Marie points out that all this does not mean the reform – non-infallible and not irreformable – is not otherwise problematic for other reasons:

Quote
Let it be said, though, that we are only speaking of the validity of the new rite as it was published by the Vatican. We do not speak of the legitimacy of this reform (was it good to suppress the Roman rite and replace it by an Eastern rite?), nor of the validity of the different translations and adaptations of the official right in divers particular cases…



Offline Angelus

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We ourselves, therefore, by Our Apostolic authority, approve the rite for the conferring of the sacred Orders of the Diaconate, the Presbyterate, and the Episcopate, a rite revised by the Consilium ad exsequendam Constitutionem de sacra Liturgia "after consultation with bishops from various parts of the world and with the aid of experts." (10), so that henceforth it may be used in the conferring of these Orders in place of the rite still found in the Roman Pontifical. - Paul VI, Pontificalis Romani, 1968



Here is an incorrect English translation of that paragraph in Pontificalis Romani from Google Translate:

Quote
Therefore, this rite for the collation of the Sacred Orders of the Diaconate, the Presbyterate and the Episcopate, ... ,we ourselves approve by our apostolic authority, so that henceforth, instead of the rite still existing in the Roman Pontifical, it should be used in the conferring of these Orders.

That Google translation gives the false impression that Paul VI is approving the abrogation of the previous rite and requiring that the new rite be used in the future. That is not what his words say. 

Here is an alternative literal translation of the same (which is very close to the one that PV quoted above):

Quote
Therefore, this collection of rites of Sacred Orders of the Diaconate, Presbyterate, and the Episcopate, ... , We by our apostolic authority approve, so that henceforth, to the rite in the Roman Pontifical still extant, may be extended in conferring these Orders.

Here is the original Latin:

Hunc igitur ritum pro collatione Ordinum Sacrorum Diaconatus, Presbyteratus et Episcopatus, ... , Nosmet ipsi Apostolica Nostra auctoritate approbamus, ut posthac, pro ritu in Pontificali Romano adhuc exstante, adhibeatur in his Ordinibus conferendis.

Essentially, Paul VI created a parallel set of Orders that "may be used." These new, parallel Orders are the marks of the Counterfeit Catholic Church. But the real, valid, Orders still exist and can be and should be used. There is no pontifical abrogation of the Old Orders.




Offline SeanJohnson

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Paul VI said that? Do you have a reference for me please Dusty?
Was it an infallible declaration?

Unless he explicitly referenced his intention to engage infallibility, then it is not.
Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

Offline Plenus Venter

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Essentially, Paul VI created a parallel set of Orders that "may be used." These new, parallel Orders are the marks of the Counterfeit Catholic Church. But the real, valid, Orders still exist and can be and should be used. There is no pontifical abrogation of the Old Orders.
Yes, good point, Angelus. Hardly a law enforced with infallible authority. Not that it even could be, in my opinion, as the role of the Pope in this regard is to preserve, guard, expound, clarify and transmit what he has received, not to revolutionise and concoct! As Archbishop Lefebvre put it so simply: I am simply the postman, delivering to you that which I have received. I did not write the letter! Unfortunately, the popes of the last 60 years or so have been busy re-writing!

Does that make them not pope? That is where we differ. I say no, that means we resist them. We do not have the right to make that decision. The Church needs to hold them to account (a Council, St Robert Bellarmine would say). There lies the mystery, as God has so allowed His Church to be overshadowed by this crisis that for the time being God wills that we must patiently suffer this evil, but as St Robert says:

But they will say, therefore, only the Church is without remedy if it has a bad Pope, and the Pope can disturb all things unpunished, and destroy and no one will be able to resist. I respond: No wonder if the Church remains without an efficacious human remedy, seeing that its safety does not rest principally upon human industry, but divine protection, since God is its King. Therefore, even if the Church could not depose a Pope, still it may and must beg the Lord that he would apply the remedy, and it is certain that God has care of its safety, that he would either convert the Pope or abolish him from the midst before he destroys the Church. Nevertheless, it does not follow from here that it is not lawful to resist a Pope destroying the Church; for it is lawful to admonish him while preserving all reverence, and to modestly correct him... (De Ecclesia, Bk II On The Authority of Councils, Ch XIX Protestant Responses are Refuted)

Offline Angelus

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Well, that is in fact the meaning of Sacramentum Ordinis:

Sacramentum Ordinis - Papal Encyclicals

in the Episcopal Ordination or Consecration, the matter is the imposition of hands which is done by the Bishop consecrator. The form consists of the words of the “Preface,” of which the following are essential and therefore required for validity:

Just because the said words are essential, does not mean that the whole preface is not part of the form. It is, according to this docuмent. And of course, those 'essential words' are different in the other rites. Sacramentum Ordinis lays down the principles:

3. All agree that the Sacraments of the New Law, as sensible signs which produce invisible grace, must both signify the grace which they produce and produce the grace which they signify. Now the effects which must be produced and hence also signified by Sacred Ordination to the Diaconate, the Priesthood, and the Episcopacy, namely power and grace, in all the rites of various times and places in the universal Church, are found to be sufficiently signified by the imposition of hands and the words which determine it.

Don't misunderstand, I'm not arguing in favour of the new rite's validity. It's disputed, and I believe the only way that dispute can be resolved definitively is by the Magisterium which is on strike at the moment! However, I do consider it rash to definitively declare it certainly invalid when there are theological opinions to the contrary.


PV, we don't need to declare it "certainly invalid." The standard in the moral theology manuals is much lower. All one needs is enough evidence for possible invalidity to introduce a "positive doubt." Callan and McHugh state that a "tutiorist" stance must be taken when "there is question of the validity or invalidity of a Sacrament, for the virtue of religion requires that the Sacraments be administered with fidelity, and be not exposed to the peril of nullity."

What you and Dusty have brought up in Sacramentum Ordinis is evidence enough for "positive doubt." But there is enough evidence, I believe, for moral certainty in the matter.
  
Pull up Sacramentum Ordinis in Latin in one window and in the official English translation in another window. Notice how the words "validitatem" and "valorum" are used precisely (in the Latin) to mean different things. But in the English translation both of those different Latin words are translated as the same word, "validity."

Also, look at the use of the words referring to "essence" and "substance." These are technical theological terms. In Aquinas, these words refer to very different cognitive and ontological topoi. Any "substance" consists of "matter" and "form" as the genetic components of that "substance." A "substance" cannot "exist" unless there is FIRST a coalescence of matter and form. So a Sacrament (as a particular instance of the Eucharist, for example) cannot "exist" without the presence of BOTH matter and form. The "substance" refers to a particular reality, the thing itself.

An "essence" is very different. The "essence" of a thing is a mental abstraction of properties from already existing things possessing that "essence." The essence is determined by empirical examination of already existing realities (that is, things already built up by the coalescence of matter and form). Another name for "essence" in Thomism is quiddity, or the "whatness" of the thing.  An "essence" is conceptual in nature, a construct of the mind, it is not "the thing itself." 

So, only the "substance" of the Sacrament pertains to its "validity." This is Thomism. And it is the basis of the quote from Trent in paragraph 1 of SO, that the "substance of the Sacraments" cannot be changed. Note, however, that in SO paragraph 5, each quoted phrase mentioned is introduced as being "essentialia ideoque ad valorem requisita [essential and therefore required for value]." Nothing in the Latin text, in that section, refers to "substance" or "validity." What???? This should set off alarm bells.


So what is going on in paragraph 5? "Essences," using the precise Thomistic theological terminology, are not related to "validity," but instead, they can add "value" to help us understand the Sacrament better, in this case, the Sacrament of Orders. Why do they "add value?" Because they define the "whatness," or the quiddity, of the particular Order referenced. In other words, something "essential" is helpful to know, but it is not a constituent of "validity." Only the matter and form are constituents related to "validity" of a Sacrament, which is a "substance," an ontological reality. In the case of the Sacrament of Orders, the ontological reality is the indelible character imprinted on the soul of the recipient of the Sacrament.

So the "essential" words that are quoted in SO paragraph 5 are not required for "validity." They are simply the most important (highest value) words in the Preface. The ENTIRE PREFACE is required for "validity" because the ENTIRE PREFACE (and no less) is "the form." To apply the same idea to another Sacrament, would be like saying the following: "I baptize thee, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is the form of baptism, of which the word 'baptize' is essential and therefore required for value." In other words, don't use a word like "wash" or "cleanse" or whatever instead of "baptize" because the specific word "baptize" reflects something "essential" in that Sacrament. That particular word helps us understand Baptism in a definitive way.

Bottomline: Pius XII stated that "the form" of each Order is the ENTIRE Preface (for each level of Order). It is reductionism leading to invalidity to restrict the required words of "the form" to only the quoted words that are "essential and therefore required for value."



Offline Plenus Venter

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PV, we don't need to declare it "certainly invalid." The standard in the moral theology manuals is much lower. All one needs is enough evidence for possible invalidity to introduce a "positive doubt." Callan and McHugh state that a "tutiorist" stance must be taken when "there is question of the validity or invalidity of a Sacrament, for the virtue of religion requires that the Sacraments be administered with fidelity, and be not exposed to the peril of nullity."
Yes, of course, we are in agreement there. There lies much of the gravity in what is happening now with Bishop Huonder.