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Traditional Catholic Faith => SSPX Resistance News => Topic started by: Barry on May 01, 2023, 06:52:28 PM

Title: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: Barry on May 01, 2023, 06:52:28 PM


Open letter to Father Benoît de Jorna
Superior of the District of France for the SSPX



13 April 2023
saint Hermenegild
Reverend Father,


At the seminary in Flavigny, France, for three years of study, more than thirty years ago, your clear, precise and acute teaching, without ambiguity or concession, filled my levitical youth with enthusiasm.


It was you who guided my steps in the discovery of the anti-liberal school and I can never thank you enough for having become, modestly, through you, an intimate familiar with the works of the Bishop of Poitiers and a few others…


I also owe you this appointment in the Pays Basque, where I spent fifteen very rewarding years as a priest.


This letter might appear disrespectful. It is not my intention. A few years ago, you took the liberty of asserting discreetly that my attitude was not motivated by doctrinal reasons. I blamed you for it because it was simply wrong.


Today's letter, in case you doubt it, is inspired solely by doctrinal motives. It is open, which avoids opening it, and which will allow others, because it is open, to become acquainted with it.


For some time now, some confreres have been telling me or making me say: “You left too quickly. It is true that the situation was critical in 2012-13, but things have recovered. No agreement has been signed and it is no longer in question. »


The time for my Memoirs having not arrived yet, I will say nothing today of the fate that was reserved to me in these years.
But are these words really true?


Wouldn't that be forgetting important innovations, such as the jurisdiction of the Conciliar Ordinary imposed on the priests of the SSPX, for the administration of marriage in 2017? Rumors are that you said that this jurisdiction was nothing else than a scrap of paper, but I could see that your words are not in line with your actions.


Wouldn't that still be forgetting that absolutions are also administered in the SSPX under the regime of this same conciliar jurisdiction?


After his signature (of the Protocol of Accords) on May 5, 1988, Archbishop Lefebvre recognized that he had gone too far. But reading his latest book For the Love of the Church published in 2019, Bishop Fellay seems to have only one regret: that of not having concluded an agreement in 2012.
What caused a lot of noise in the past has continued more quietly in recent years. Only those who take their dreams for reality can say that the situation has recovered. Rather, it seems to me that the SSPX is constantly backsliding.


A new step was taken last Holy Thursday, April 6, 2023, on the occasion of the ceremony of consecration of the Holy Oils at the German seminary of the SSPX by Bishop Huonder, a bishop ordained priest and consecrated bishop in the new rite. This is not something you ignore. If the doctrinal discussions may have seemed abstract and not very accessible to some, isn't the consecration of the Oils the "shock of reality"?


A little history.


That a conciliar bishop joins the SSPX is not a novelty. In the editorial of Fideliter n° 113 of Sept.-Oct. 1996 p. 3, you told your readers of an “tremendous joy”, that of having welcomed Bishop Salvador Lazo at the ordinations of June 27 in Ecône: “At Écône, on June 27, we had the immense joy of welcoming Bishop Salvador Lazo, Bishop Emeritus of San Fernando de la Union, Philippines. At the end of his Open Letter to Confused Catholics, Archbishop Lefebvre wrote: “Even if he is silent today, one or the other of the bishops will receive from the Holy Ghost the courage to stand up in his turn. » Bishop Lazo is the first, he will not be the last to join the fight for Tradition. And if a single bishop does not make the whole Church, any more than a swallow makes the spring, this coming shows that our fight begins to penetrate even the highest spheres of the Church. »


Bishop Lazo's attitude was, indeed, unequivocal. His Declaration of Faith of May 21, 1998 addressed to John Paul II and his Open Letter to Cardinal Sin on May 17 of the same year are proof of this. These two public interventions confessed the Catholic Faith and denounced modern errors. His conversion was obvious but it did not solve all the difficulties. Why has Bishop Lazo never ordained a single SSPX seminarian? Quite simply because his consecration, on February 3, 1970, in the new rite, was then considered doubtful by the authorities of the SSPX.


Despite his remarkable interventions, the situation of Bishop Vigano today is no different from that of Bishop Lazo yesterday.


In reading again, in recent days, the quotation you made in 1996 from this Open Letter to Confused Catholics published in 1985, it seemed to me very imprecise and insufficient. Archbishop Lefebvre had said: “There will be found throughout the world, I know, enough bishops to ordain our seminarians. Even if he is silent today, one or the other of these bishops would receive from the Holy Ghost the courage to stand up in his turn. »


Archbishop Lefebvre's hope did not come true, which is why he resolved to consecrate bishops on June 30, 1988 to allow the ordination of SSPX seminarians. Jean Madiran noted these words from the Open Letter to Confused Catholics and made reproaches to its author for contradicting himself.


A few days ago, some confreres published a copy of a letter written in English and dated October 28, 1988, that Archbishop Lefebvre addressed to a certain Mr. Wilson, on the topic of conciliar priests who joined Tradition: “ (...) I agree with your desire that these priests be conditionally re-ordained and I have made such re-ordinations a number of times. All the sacraments of modernist bishops and priests are now doubtful. The changes are multiplying and their intentions are no longer Catholic. We are in the time of the great apostasy. (...) »


This private docuмent is not without interest, but I prefer these public and solemn words of Archbishop Lefebvre, during his homily, on the occasion of the Consecrations of June 30, 1988: "You know my very dear brethren, you know that there cannot be priests without bishops. All these seminarians who are present here, if tomorrow the good Lord calls me back, and it will no doubt be without delay, well, these seminarians, from whom will they receive the sacrament of Holy Orders? From Conciliar bishops, whose sacraments are all dubious because we do not know exactly what their intentions are? It is not possible. Now which are the bishops who kept Tradition, who kept the sacraments as the Church gave them for twenty centuries until the Second Vatican Council? Well, it's Bishop De Castro Mayer and myself. I can't help it but that's the way it is. »


In 1998, the Authorities of the SSPX had not forgotten these words that their Founder had pronounced ten years earlier.


In a letter from Bishop Tissier de Mallerais, dated August 12, 1998, we read:


Menzingen, August 12, 1998


Dear father,
Thank you for sending me a copy of Dr. Rama Cosmaraswany's booklet "The Anglican Drama".
Having read it quickly, I conclude that there is a doubt about the validity of the episcopal consecrations conferred according to the rite of Paul VI.
The "spiritum principalem" of the form introduced by Paul VI is not sufficiently clear in itself and the accessory rites do not specify its meaning in a Catholic sense.
As for Monsignor Lazo, it would be difficult for us to explain these things to him; the only solution is not to ask him to administer Confirmation or Holy Orders.
Your devoted in Our Lord Jesus Christ.
Bernard Tissier de Mallerais


P.S. Last minute, Bishop Lazo has already confirmed “quite a bit” in our chapels! It is obviously valid by the suppleance of the Church (can. 209), since a simple priest validly confirms with jurisdiction. And we do not see how to point out our doubts to Bishop Lazo. So, silence and discretion on this subject, please!


Reading the postscript to this letter, it seems that Bishop Tissier de Mallerais would not have been in favor of Bishop Lazo administering the sacrament of Confirmation. However, he does not express any doubt about these confirmations administered by Bishop Lazo because he is certain of his priesthood, received in the traditional rite, by a bishop consecrated in the traditional rite. But it seems obvious that Bishop Tissier de Mallerais does not envisage the possibility, for Bishop Lazo, of conferring Orders or consecrating the Holy Oils.


Incidentally, I have always been surprised at the requirement of this "silence and discretion" mentioned in this postscript, because reading the Declaration to the Pope and the Open Letter to Cardinal Sin, suggests that Bishop Lazo would not have been hostile to conditional episcopal consecration…
Does the Society of Saint Pius X have the same doubts today and does it retain the same attitude and the same dispositions that it had vis-à-vis Bishop Lazo twenty-five years ago?


The presence of Bishop Huonder in a house of the SSPX makes it easy to answer this question.
The concerns that some had expressed at the prospect of this conciliar episcopal presence in the SSPX are not so old.
Have these concerns been allayed?


The rather ambiguous communiqué from the General House, co-signed by the Superior General and by Bishop Huonder, which announced the arrival of the latter in a house of the SSPX, declared on May 20, 2019: “…The one and only goal of his coming is to devote himself to prayer and silence, to celebrate the traditional Mass exclusively, and to work for Tradition, the only means of renewal of the Church. » …
"Prayer and silence" are one thing, but what did it mean to "work for Tradition", when we know that Bishop Huonder had come with the agreement of Pope Francis with a view to helping to regularize the SSPX?


To my knowledge, Bishop Huonder has not, to date, imitated the example of Bishop Lazo. I don't know of any public statement rejecting his errors and condemning those of Vatican II.


Since his doctoral thesis in 1975, the relations that Bishop Huonder maintains with the Jews have been known. Everyone knows that Bishop Huonder is at the origin of this “dies judaicus – the day of the Jєωιѕн people” established in the Swiss church on the 2nd Sunday of Lent. For Bishop Huonder, it seems that the first Covenant was not abrogated by the incarnation of Christ. This is a scandal! Scandal which has never been, as far as I know, the object of the slightest retraction, let alone reparation.


Last April 6 in Zaitkofen, the oils were certainly olive oil. Were they also kosher?


This ambiguous situation motivated the departure of Fr. Rousseau, which you had announced in a brief message to the confreres of the District of France:


Suresnes, May 7, 2019
Dear confreres,


As we prepare for Pentecost to receive the Paraclete in order to abandon ourselves more perfectly to divine grace, it is my duty to announce to you the departure of Father Rousseau from the Society. He has already left the priory of Bailly to go alongside Father Morgan. The letter he wrote to me just before leaving us stipulates that his departure is “a question of truth”: the arrival, he says, of Bishop Huonder in Wangs, “wolf in the sheepfold”, is intolerable to him.


I can only regret his unexpected departure and obviously recommend him to your prayers.
Father B. de Jorna


Two years later, Father Rousseau could answer the “question of truth” since he revealed on his site on May 25, 2021 that “What was to happen…” had happened.
What had happened?
In spite of the reproaches of distorting the reality that the General House made to Fr. Rousseau, obviously Bishop Huonder did not give himself up only to "prayer and silence", but the former bishop of Chur heard Confessions, taught catechism, gave Confirmation and even had just said a Pontifical Mass for Pentecost 2021 at the seminary of Zaitzkofen...


It should be specified that if Bishop Lazo had validly confirmed [cf. the postscript of Mgr Tissier de Mallerais] because he was certainly a priest [ordained in the traditional rite by a bishop consecrated in the traditional rite], this is not the case of Mgr Huonder who was not only consecrated a bishop, but also ordained a priest, in the new rite.


An additional step was therefore taken last Maundy Thursday with the consecration of the Holy Oils which will be used by dozens of priests of the SSPX for the administration of the sacraments.
Is it illegitimate and reckless to wonder which Oils will be used next June for the priestly ordinations at the German seminary of Zaitkofen?


What would prevent Bishop Huonder from now conferring priestly ordinations? It would not be the first time since he did it on Saturday June 23, 2018, for the FSSP.
I hear some priests inviting their faithful to “trust the superiors”. Doesn't this attitude, so unlike Archbishop Lefebvre’s, consist in confusing obedience with resignation?


Is it distorting reality to affirm a practical change of attitude between Bishop Lazo and Bishop Huonder on the part of the SSPX? A change that would manifest that the SSPX now considers the new sacraments to be certainly valid.


I am therefore no longer surprised to have heard in the last few years some confreres (formed under your authority at the Séminaire d'Écône) affirm without flinching the validity of the new rite of ordination and, moreover, recognize the new code of Canon Law and the validity of the Mass of Paul VI.


What happened? Did Father Gleize receive revelations from the Holy Ghost? Has the light struck your eyes and enlightened your mind? As far as I'm concerned, I must have missed an episode!


Was Archbishop Lefebvre mistaken in asserting: “Conciliar bishops, whose sacraments are all doubtful because we do not know exactly what their intentions are”?


Based on these words, some say that Archbishop Lefebvre questioned the intention alone. Nothing is more remote from truth since he has conditionally confirmed thousands of people due to a doubtful matter.


Others say that conditional administration was not systematic and that Archbishop Lefebvre did not demand it. It is so true that Archbishop Lefebvre himself conferred ordination in Fontgombault - under the constraint of the master of ceremonies of the abbey - Father Jean-Yves Cottard, according to the new rite. He only then proceeded to give the supplements lacking to the ceremony. This attitude would suggest that at that time, Archbishop Lefebvre considered valid the matter and the form of the new sacrament of Holy Orders. It was in 1973, fifteen years before the Consecrations during which Archbishop Lefebvre did affirm: “Conciliar bishops, whose sacraments are all doubtful because we do not know exactly what their intentions are. »


The case of Father B., former monk of Flavigny Abbey is interesting. He collaborated for ten years in the apostolate of the SSPX, before being dismissed. Here is what I read in a recent letter from Bishop Tissier de Mallerais, dated June 20, 2022:


"Father B., former monk of the monastery of Saint-Joseph de Flavigny does not collaborate in the works of the Society of Saint Pius X, because he does not accept the proposal we made to him to be re-ordained a priest under condition, to remove any doubt, and any hesitation on the part of the faithful. »


This observation about “hesitation on the part of the faithful” is interesting, but it does not seem to have been taken into account with regard to Father Belwood. This is just one example.


To be impartial, I must also say that Bishop Tissier de Mallerais, in the same letter that I have just quoted, writes: "As for priestly ordination according to the rite of Paul VI, I consider it valid, because the form of the sacrament of the order of the presbyterate is the same as in the traditional Roman rite, apart from the deletion of an "ut" which gives way to a single comma, which is nothing. It is always to be feared that the intention of the bishop contradicts the doctrine of the Catholic priesthood, but nothing proves such a thing to me in Bishop Coloni, who accepted (and wanted) to ordain the monks of Flavigny who then had a reputation of being traditionalists.
As for the episcopal consecration of Mgr Coloni, like that of Mgr Lustiger who consecrated him bishop, etc., my judgement, shared by the best professor of theology in our seminary in Argentina, Father Alvaro Calderón, is that the sacramental form of the order of the episcopate in the rite of Paul VI sufficiently signifies the order of the episcopate, namely its power to govern a flock (its diocese, at least its eventual diocese). » …


Who to believe? Bishop Tissier de Mallerais of August 12, 1998 in his letter concerning Bishop Lazo or Bishop Tissier de Mallerais of June 20, 2022?


What authority is qualified to make a certain and definitive judgment? Father Alvaro Calderón?


Really the evidence and the coherence are not there and many surprises will be reserved for the one who will objectively undertake the doctrinal history of the SSPX!


Today the SSPX entrusts the consecration of the Holy Oils to Bishop Huonder. Yesterday it dismissed Father Hervé Mercury who had not refused that Bishop Bonfils (local Ordinary) confirm the faithful of the chapel (FSSPX) in the traditional rite and with the holy oils consecrated by a bishop of the SSPX... Understand who can!


Can you contradict me when I see that the gap between the SSPX and the FSSP becomes imperceptible?


What an evolution! Development all the more incomprehensible as the disorder of the conciliar church is accentuated each day more... "We are in the time of the great apostasy", wrote Archbishop Lefebvre on October 28, 1988. We must never make a pact with the apostasy.


I can still hear the professor of moral theology tell us at Ecône, speaking of the administration of the sacrament of baptism: “They did not touch to the essential! » He was thereby asserting that modernist baptisms were valid.


My modest personal experience has shown me that this statement could be false. Here is an example: what to think of this baptism, administered by an elderly and pious priest, who at the time of the infusion of the waters, asks the older brother of the child to be baptized, to pour the water, and to his great sister, to pronounce the ritual formula?


Archbishop Lefebvre gave the example of the formula used for the consecration of Archbishop Danneels, auxiliary bishop of Brussels: "Be an apostle like Ghandi, be an apostle like Luther".


The consequences of such a mess are incalculable and therefore impossible to identify. This auxiliary bishop of Brussels - who really could not be a bishop - what has become of him? How many priests did he ordain? Did he consecrate bishops?


How can one consider taking the risk of administering sacraments, perhaps void, when it is so simple to ensure their certain validity?


The SSPX does not recognize the authenticity of recent saints' canonizations. Father de Cacqueray recalled in his Editorial of Fideliter n° 182 of March-April 2008 "Avoiding arbitrariness for the saints": "The Society of Saint Pius X has chosen not to choose, and to wait for the decisions of the Magisterium to make things clear again.


During the 2006 Chapter, the SSPX renewed this non-choice “in order not to fall into the need to choose [between the saints] and fall into arbitrariness”. The reflections proposed here are therefore speculative, and do not claim to settle the question definitively. »


This attitude was not always respected. As a proof: the liturgical Ordo of the sisters of Trévoux which for many years has indicated Saint Padre Pio on September 23. But the latest edition (2023) no longer mentions holy but blessed Padre Pio. The article by Father Toulza published in Fideliter n° 265 of January-February 2022 p. 35-49: The saints that should not be celebrated, is perhaps not for nothing in this change.
Shouldn't this cautious attitude towards the saints apply to the new sacraments?


Should we not apply to these possibly dubious sacraments what you affirmed, yourself, at the General Chapter of 2012 about the new mass:


«It is not enough to affirm that the new mass is valid. The new mass is bad in itself. It represents an occasion for the sin of unfaithfulness. This is why it cannot constitute a matter of obligation to sanctify Sunday. At a time when Rome recognizes the two rites, it is necessary to remember: “about the new mass, let us immediately destroy this absurd idea: if the new mass is valid, one can participate in it. The Church has always forbidden to attend the Masses of schismatics and heretics, even if they are valid. It is obvious that we cannot participate in sacrilegious Masses, nor in Masses that put our faith in danger”.


It's clear! Why shouldn't your reasoning be valid for the new sacraments?


Every regime lives by a principle, said Napoleon, when it loses it, it disappears. »


Moreover, on May 15, 2001, responding to the journalist Giovanni Pelli, you affirmed: “I personally think that he [John Paul II] wants to integrate us into this pluralist church. Integration which would be our disintegration. »


Is the intention of the Vatican authorities no longer the same?
Has your rating changed?


Be that as it may, if it is still possible to say that nothing has changed in the SSPX since last Maundy Thursday, it is impossible to think so.


It is high time to conclude. The length of this letter is not its least defect.


Deceived by some faithful who, probably, took their desire for reality, one of my good colleagues understood that I regretted not being a member of the SSPX anymore and asked your permission (!) to enter in contact with me. You would have refused it on the grounds "that I should not be led to believe that the SSPX needs me..." Is this really your state of mind?


No, be reassured, I never felt this regret at having been expelled from the SSPX, and I believe I can tell you that if I were still a member of it today, the time would have come for me to leave it, for I cannot consider, for a moment, the risk of administering the sacraments with questionably consecrated oils.


Le ver est dans le fruit (the rot has already set in), isn’t it simply Huonderful?


Father Nicolas Pinaud
Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: Barry on May 01, 2023, 07:07:38 PM
"Last April 6 in Zaitkofen, the oils were certainly olive oil. Were they also kosher?"
Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: Ladislaus on May 01, 2023, 08:41:16 PM
To be impartial, I must also say that Bishop Tissier de Mallerais, in the same letter that I have just quoted, writes: "As for priestly ordination according to the rite of Paul VI, I consider it valid, because the form of the sacrament of the order of the presbyterate is the same as in the traditional Roman rite, apart from the deletion of an "ut" which gives way to a single comma, which is nothing. It is always to be feared that the intention of the bishop contradicts the doctrine of the Catholic priesthood, but nothing proves such a thing to me in Bishop Coloni, who accepted (and wanted) to ordain the monks of Flavigny who then had a reputation of being traditionalists.
As for the episcopal consecration of Mgr Coloni, like that of Mgr Lustiger who consecrated him bishop, etc., my judgement, shared by the best professor of theology in our seminary in Argentina, Father Alvaro Calderón, is that the sacramental form of the order of the episcopate in the rite of Paul VI sufficiently signifies the order of the episcopate, namely its power to govern a flock (its diocese, at least its eventual diocese). » …

Who to believe? Bishop Tissier de Mallerais of August 12, 1998 in his letter concerning Bishop Lazo or Bishop Tissier de Mallerais of June 20, 2022?

So, when did Bishop Tissier turn?
Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: Plenus Venter on May 01, 2023, 10:02:40 PM
So, when did Bishop Tissier turn?
Bishop Tissier stood firm in the early days of the Resistance, preaching against an agreement with the villains in Rome.
As time went by he became more and more opposed to the Resistance and has for years now accepted the necessity of an agreement.
I no longer trust him to give sound advice on anything. Very sad.
Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: SeanJohnson on May 01, 2023, 10:12:38 PM
Hello Barry-

Can you please post a link to the original French of Fr. Pinaud?
Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: Plenus Venter on May 01, 2023, 10:16:11 PM
Thank you for posting, Barry.
I think all of us in the Resistance would do well to imitate Fr Pinaud and send letters of concern to those priests of the SSPX who have served us in the past, perhaps even send them this letter.
Fr Pinaud, and Bishop Tissier whom he quotes, would seem to be in error regarding the opinion of Fr Calderon. From what Sean posted on another thread, and from what I have heard BW say in the past, Fr Calderon holds that there is a shadow of doubt in the new rite of episcopal consecration, and that such doubt cannot be tolerated "at the very root of the sacraments", and therefore that such consecrations should be conditionally repeated.
Also, I am surprised that Bishop Tissier would have no concerns about sacraments administered by Cardinal Lustiger.
As an aside, it is interesting to note that Bishop Tissier invokes Canon 209 regarding common error and supplied jurisdiction to validate the Confirmations of Bishop Lazo in the event that his episcopal consecration is invalid. 
Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: MiracleOfTheSun on May 01, 2023, 10:35:17 PM
So, when did Bishop Tissier turn?

In the wake of the fallout of 2012, I went on a retreat in Connecticut with +Zendegas and the Dominicans of Avrille.  The oldest Dominican priest (whose name I can't recall) read us an email exchange between he and +Tissier in which +Tissier said he was ready to make a deal.
Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: SeanJohnson on May 01, 2023, 10:38:42 PM
In the wake of the fallout of 2012, I went on a retreat in Connecticut with +Zendegas and the Dominicans of Avrille.  The oldest Dominican priest (whose name I can't recall) read us an email exchange between he and +Tissier in which +Tissier said he was ready to make a deal.

Fr. Marie-Dominique.
Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: MiracleOfTheSun on May 01, 2023, 10:48:15 PM
Thanks.  I did my confession with him which was good.
Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: Plenus Venter on May 01, 2023, 10:55:10 PM
This ambiguous situation motivated the departure of Fr. Rousseau, which you had announced in a brief message to the confreres of the District of France:


Suresnes, May 7, 2019
Dear confreres,


As we prepare for Pentecost to receive the Paraclete in order to abandon ourselves more perfectly to divine grace, it is my duty to announce to you the departure of Father Rousseau from the Society. He has already left the priory of Bailly to go alongside Father Morgan. The letter he wrote to me just before leaving us stipulates that his departure is “a question of truth”: the arrival, he says, of Bishop Huonder in Wangs, “wolf in the sheepfold”, is intolerable to him.


I can only regret his unexpected departure and obviously recommend him to your prayers.
Father B. de Jorna


Two years later, Father Rousseau could answer the “question of truth” since he revealed on his site on May 25, 2021 that “What was to happen…” had happened.
What had happened?
In spite of the reproaches of distorting the reality that the General House made to Fr. Rousseau, obviously Bishop Huonder did not give himself up only to "prayer and silence", but the former bishop of Chur heard Confessions, taught catechism, gave Confirmation and even had just said a Pontifical Mass for Pentecost 2021 at the seminary of Zaitzkofen...
Here is a reply I received from a senior priest of the SSPX, of the 'conservative wing', to whom I expressed my concerns at the time when Bishop Huonder came to live under the roof of the SSPX with the approval of Pope Francis, without any repudiation of the Council or the Conciliar Church, straight from altar girls, as it were, to Tradition:

Bishop Huonder states that his staying with the Society of St. Pius X is only to devote himself to prayer and the traditional Latin Mass. If this is true, then there is no real danger to us. He will obviously not be administering sacraments for us and has been told that if he lives with us, he cannot do so for the Fraternity of St. Peter either. We shall see. I think that Fr. Rousseau is overreacting, and that there is another real reason for his departure. Fr. De Jorna quotes him because the accusation is so obviously over-exaggerated...

Fr Pagliarani has insisted on our opposition to the errors of Vatican II, and the idea of a canonical arrangement without resolution of the doctrinal issues has now been abandoned, as it should have been all along. So we are practically back to the chapter of 2006 statement.

Is there any point getting back in touch with this priest and reminding him of what he said?
Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: SeanJohnson on May 01, 2023, 11:02:46 PM
Here is a reply I received from a senior priest of the SSPX, of the 'conservative wing', to whom I expressed my concerns at the time when Bishop Huonder came to live under the roof of the SSPX with the approval of Pope Francis, without any repudiation of the Council or the Conciliar Church, straight from altar girls, as it were, to Tradition:

Bishop Huonder states that his staying with the Society of St. Pius X is only to devote himself to prayer and the traditional Latin Mass. If this is true, then there is no real danger to us. He will obviously not be administering sacraments for us and has been told that if he lives with us, he cannot do so for the Fraternity of St. Peter either. We shall see. I think that Fr. Rousseau is overreacting, and that there is another real reason for his departure. Fr. De Jorna quotes him because the accusation is so obviously over-exaggerated...

Fr Pagliarani has insisted on our opposition to the errors of Vatican II, and the idea of a canonical arrangement without resolution of the doctrinal issues has now been abandoned, as it should have been all along. So we are practically back to the chapter of 2006 statement.

Is there any point getting back in touch with this priest and reminding him of what he said?


Yeah, total B.S.

Like I said in the other thread:

2 Thess 2:10

And in all seduction of iniquity to them that perish; because they receive not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying:

[10] "God shall send": That is God shall suffer them to be deceived by lying wonders, and false miracles, in punishment of their not entertaining the love of truth.

Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: St Giles on May 01, 2023, 11:05:02 PM
Here is a reply I received from a senior priest of the SSPX, of the 'conservative wing', to whom I expressed my concerns at the time when Bishop Huonder came to live under the roof of the SSPX with the approval of Pope Francis, without any repudiation of the Council or the Conciliar Church, straight from altar girls, as it were, to Tradition:

Bishop Huonder states that his staying with the Society of St. Pius X is only to devote himself to prayer and the traditional Latin Mass. If this is true, then there is no real danger to us. He will obviously not be administering sacraments for us and has been told that if he lives with us, he cannot do so for the Fraternity of St. Peter either. We shall see. I think that Fr. Rousseau is overreacting, and that there is another real reason for his departure. Fr. De Jorna quotes him because the accusation is so obviously over-exaggerated...

Fr Pagliarani has insisted on our opposition to the errors of Vatican II, and the idea of a canonical arrangement without resolution of the doctrinal issues has now been abandoned, as it should have been all along. So we are practically back to the chapter of 2006 statement.

Is there any point getting back in touch with this priest and reminding him of what he said?

Go for it, and maybe tell him also of other cases recently brought to light again in recent threads of trad priests and bishops saying one thing with regards to an accord and those who are trying to obtain one, then years later doing a 180.
Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: MiracleOfTheSun on May 01, 2023, 11:29:09 PM

Is there any point getting back in touch with this priest and reminding him of what he said?

Seems like there's a 99% chance it does absolutely no good but if you do, and it's just the 1% he needs, that would be a great victory. 
Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: trento on May 02, 2023, 12:44:37 AM
In the wake of the fallout of 2012, I went on a retreat in Connecticut with +Zendegas and the Dominicans of Avrille.  The oldest Dominican priest (whose name I can't recall) read us an email exchange between he and +Tissier in which +Tissier said he was ready to make a deal.

How sure are we that the email came from +Tissier?
Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: Plenus Venter on May 02, 2023, 05:34:07 AM
How sure are we that the email came from +Tissier?
Oh, it would be morally certain alright. The Dominicans and Bishop Tissier were very close.
Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: SeanJohnson on May 02, 2023, 06:42:24 AM
How sure are we that the email came from +Tissier?

Why would you question it?
Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: rum on May 02, 2023, 07:16:55 AM
Why does an SSPX bishop take the advice of the perennialist "Dr. Rama Cosmaraswany", i.e. Dr. Rama Coomaraswamy.

Bishop Tissier expressed some time ago that it was a mistake for Archbishop Lefebvre to pick Bishop Williamson.

Funny thing, but when Bishop Williamson was rector at Winona he used to invite a rabbi (more than once and more than one?) to talk to seminarians.

Why did Archbishop Lefebvre pick any of them? Bishop Williamson is more my type, as he says critical things of jews and has exposed the fraud of the h0Ɩ0cαųst. But why invite a rabbi to speak to seminarians?

Having never been a member of the SSPX and not paying that much attention to them it's a head scratcher how they went from showcasing very anti-Jєωιѕн articles on the homepage of their website (which I remember years back enjoying) to kissing up to jews. Practically overnight. With very little criticism from the SSPX faithful. The old frog in the frying pan trick.
Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: St Giles on May 02, 2023, 10:18:24 AM
Why does an SSPX bishop take the advice of the perennialist "Dr. Rama Cosmaraswany", i.e. Dr. Rama Coomaraswamy.

Bishop Tissier expressed some time ago that it was a mistake for Archbishop Lefebvre to pick Bishop Williamson.

Funny thing, but when Bishop Williamson was rector at Winona he used to invite a rabbi (more than once and more than one?) to talk to seminarians.

Why did Archbishop Lefebvre pick any of them? Bishop Williamson is more my type, as he says critical things of Jєωs and has exposed the fraud of the h0Ɩ0cαųst. But why invite a rabbi to speak to seminarians?

Having never been a member of the SSPX and not paying that much attention to them it's a head scratcher how they went from showcasing very anti-Jєωιѕн articles on the homepage of their website (which I remember years back enjoying) to kissing up to Jєωs. Practically overnight. With very little criticism from the SSPX faithful. The old frog in the frying pan trick.

It could have been to let the seminarians get first hand experience with what the Jєωs believe. They can be excellent teachers of the old testament, revealing convincing evidence from even the shortest of passages in the bible in many ways that Jesus is the messiah, without that thought ever crossing their mind.

It would be interesting to know if and why he invited them. It's something to ask him and the priests he taught about.
Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: SeanJohnson on May 02, 2023, 11:01:14 AM
Oops; wrong thread.
Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: MiracleOfTheSun on May 02, 2023, 02:29:54 PM
How sure are we that the email came from +Tissier?

He told us it did so I'm guessing the Dominican priest wasn't lying to us at a retreat. 
Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: Incredulous on May 02, 2023, 02:58:11 PM
Why does an SSPX bishop take the advice of the perennialist "Dr. Rama Cosmaraswany", i.e. Dr. Rama Coomaraswamy.

Bishop Tissier expressed some time ago that it was a mistake for Archbishop Lefebvre to pick Bishop Williamson.

Funny thing, but when Bishop Williamson was rector at Winona he used to invite a rabbi (more than once and more than one?) to talk to seminarians.



Or ordain a known sɛҳuąƖ predator?

(https://www.churchmilitant.com/images/uploads/Urrutigoity_argentina.jpg)

After his SSPX ordination, everywhere Urrutigoity went, scandals erupted.

The latest being under Pope Benedict and Francis involving a former Opus judei Bishop of Paraguay. who had converted to Tradition.

It was if Urrutigoity was an MKUltra traveling bomb.
Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: DustyActual on May 02, 2023, 03:39:08 PM
The only way to save the new rite of episcopal consecration is if the entire preface is considered the form, in that case it does appear to meet the requirements that Pope Pius XII laid down in Sacramentum Ordinis, because the entire preface does mention the power of the high priesthood and the Holy Ghost. If i recall correctly, the rite of episcopal consecration in the eastern rites has the entire preface as the form, and not just a few words like in the roman rite.The only problem with this theory is that Paul VI said that the few words which includes the phrase "governing spirit" is to be considered the form.
Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: Marulus Fidelis on May 02, 2023, 03:42:08 PM
The only way to save the new rite of episcopal consecration is if the entire preface is considered the form, in that case it does appear to meet the requirements that Pope Pius XII laid down in Sacramentum Ordinis, because the entire preface does mention the power of the high priesthood and the Holy Ghost. The only problem with this theory is that Paul VI said that the few words which includes the phrase "governing spirit" is to be considered the form.
Agreed. If the whole preface was the form it could be considered valid. Unfortunately, most people pretend as if it is in fact the form.
Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: Plenus Venter on May 02, 2023, 07:03:09 PM
Bishop Tissier expressed some time ago that it was a mistake for Archbishop Lefebvre to pick Bishop Williamson.
Really? Do you have a reference for this, Rum? I guess he would have preferred the Archbishop had chosen a few more prudent turncoats so they could have remained united amongst themselves... As one of the SSPX priests told us when the Resistance was starting: we need to stay united, that way we have more strength. Talk about Vatican IIb. "Stay in the Church and fight from within"! History repeats.
Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: SeanJohnson on May 02, 2023, 07:41:36 PM
Bishop Tissier expressed some time ago that it was a mistake for Archbishop Lefebvre to pick Bishop Williamson.

Yeah, losing your courage after ending up on the losing side of the Letter of the Three Bishops will make you say lots of funny things to get back on the good side of the boss.
Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: trento on May 02, 2023, 09:51:47 PM
He told us it did so I'm guessing the Dominican priest wasn't lying to us at a retreat.

I would prefer to see the entire context of the email.
Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: Donachie on May 02, 2023, 10:13:01 PM
Long correspondence and the type is big. If it were smaller it'd be easiet to digest. Dies Judaicus or maybe Dies Juno Moneta? Juno Moneta was Big Medicine back in the day. 
Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: rum on May 03, 2023, 09:38:07 AM
Really? Do you have a reference for this, Rum? I guess he would have preferred the Archbishop had chosen a few more prudent turncoats so they could have remained united amongst themselves... As one of the SSPX priests told us when the Resistance was starting: we need to stay united, that way we have more strength. Talk about Vatican IIb. "Stay in the Church and fight from within"! History repeats.
SeanJohnson made reference to it in a couple posts:

https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/bishop-tissier-de-malleraiss-sermon-for-pentecost/30/

https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-sermons/'eleison-comments'-by-mgr-williamson-16-february-2013/15/

That's my head-scratcher. Not that Archbishop Lefebvre chose Richard Williamson but that he chose these other 3 judaizers. I know many people here admire Archbishop Lefebvre, but the question that irks me is why he didn't have the charism to correctly identify and size up his recruits. That has to be counted as a failure on his part. Or you can take the sedevacantist position, and that is that Archbishop Lefebvre didn't correctly understand just how much in eclipse the Church was, and therefore due to his own errors in his understanding of Catholicism made the wrong choices. He wasn't Catholic enough.

h0Ɩ0cαųst "deniers" are judaized. I consider Germar Rudolf to be judaized. I don't say that as a put-down.

We're all judaized to some degree. jews, unfortunately, are our rulers.

Anyone who respects the тαℓмυd should be treated as the United States government treats those it calls "terrorists."

I think of that phrase Michael Davies used: "time-bombs." The judaizing of Catholics over the centuries has taken its toll, even with the "elect."

Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: rum on May 03, 2023, 09:47:24 AM
It could have been to let the seminarians get first hand experience with what the Jєωs believe. They can be excellent teachers of the old testament, revealing convincing evidence from even the shortest of passages in the bible in many ways that Jesus is the messiah, without that thought ever crossing their mind.

It would be interesting to know if and why he invited them. It's something to ask him and the priests he taught about.
I don't have anything negative to say about Bishop Williamson other than the fact that there's really no good reason to invite a rabbi to talk to seminarians. Catholics understand jews better than jews understand jews. Or, they're supposed to understand jews better than jews understand jews. Catholics should be extremely chauvinistic towards jews.
Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: rum on May 03, 2023, 10:13:05 AM

Or ordain a known sɛҳuąƖ predator?

(https://www.churchmilitant.com/images/uploads/Urrutigoity_argentina.jpg)

After his SSPX ordination, everywhere Urrutigoity went, scandals erupted.

The latest being under Pope Benedict and Francis involving a former Opus judei Bishop of Paraguay. who had converted to Tradition.

It was if Urrutigoity was an MKUltra traveling bomb.
Another problem with the lack of charism. Sizing up people should be a pretty easy thing to do if you're holy.
Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: SeanJohnson on May 03, 2023, 10:23:42 AM
Really? Do you have a reference for this, Rum? I guess he would have preferred the Archbishop had chosen a few more prudent turncoats so they could have remained united amongst themselves... As one of the SSPX priests told us when the Resistance was starting: we need to stay united, that way we have more strength. Talk about Vatican IIb. "Stay in the Church and fight from within"! History repeats.

See here, beginning at 1:32:43 -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pBCR-ws49o

PS: As long as you are watching this conference, back up a few minutes to 1:25:28 - 1:30:00 for some critical history (especially from 1:27:50, which has come true since then).
Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: JimPlato on May 03, 2023, 10:57:51 AM
The author confuses defect of form and defect of intention. The SSPX have never claimed any of the New Rites are defective per se. Any conditional re-ordinations done in the past were due to defect of intention, which were done on a case by case basis and usually involved something the minister had said or done that may give a positive doubt regarding his intention.

Bp. Tissier de Mallerais no longer holds the episcopal consecration form is invalid. Indeed, implicit in his private letter (which was based on a rushed reading of Cosmaraswany's booklet), is that he would also have to conclude that the old Abyssinian/Coptic rites must be invalid since they used the same form – something the Church has never said even when dealing with Anglican Orders (Anglicans used this in their defense). Rather, the form doesn’t become invalid but indeterminate and the correct intention is provided ex adjunctis.

Another error Bp. TdM makes is in his claim that the power to confirm is supplied to a simple priest. Firstly, the Church has never defined what power is delegated by the pope; it could be one of order, or jurisdiction, or some order/jurisdiction hybrid, or some other unknown third power. But the supplementary principle will only supply jurisdiction. Secondly, if a delegated power of the pope can be supplied then why not the delegated power to ordain? There are at least three instances in medieval times where three different popes have delegated power to simple priests to ordain to the diaconate and priesthood. It is now generally accepted that a priest is the extraordinary minister of ordination.
Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: SeanJohnson on May 03, 2023, 11:39:05 AM
The author confuses defect of form and defect of intention. The SSPX have never claimed any of the New Rites are defective per se. Any conditional re-ordinations done in the past were due to defect of intention, which were done on a case by case basis and usually involved something the minister had said or done that may give a positive doubt regarding his intention.

Bp. Tissier de Mallerais no longer holds the episcopal consecration form is invalid. Indeed, implicit in his private letter (which was based on a rushed reading of Cosmaraswany's booklet), is that he would also have to conclude that the old Abyssinian/Coptic rites must be invalid since they used the same form – something the Church has never said even when dealing with Anglican Orders (Anglicans used this in their defense). Rather, the form doesn’t become invalid but indeterminate and the correct intention is provided ex adjunctis.

Another error Bp. TdM makes is in his claim that the power to confirm is supplied to a simple priest. Firstly, the Church has never defined what power is delegated by the pope; it could be one of order, or jurisdiction, or some order/jurisdiction hybrid, or some other unknown third power. But the supplementary principle will only supply jurisdiction. Secondly, if a delegated power of the pope can be supplied then why not the delegated power to ordain? There are at least three instances in medieval times where three different popes have delegated power to simple priests to ordain to the diaconate and priesthood. It is now generally accepted that a priest is the extraordinary minister of ordination.

Great post, but I do have some questions:

1) Regarding +de Mallerais' present position on the NREC:

Has he stated that he no longer harbors any doubts, or are you making this argument on his behalf (i.e., based upon the implicit contradiction which arises from his presumed acceptance of the Abyssinian/Coptic rites)?   

I ask because it is possible -however unlikely- that he could still harbor doubts on the NREC, not realizing the implications/contradiction regarding the Abyssinian/Coptic rites.

In any case, your point is a good one.


2) Regarding the ex adiunctis argument:

Someone here (Ladislaus?) made the argument that Michael Davies'/+Williamson's ex adiunctis argument would rob the rite of any "essential form," thereby making it unessential. 

The obvious argument against this is that either:

A) the Church would not endorse such a principle were that truly the case

or

B) It is not integral to the validity of a sacramental rite that there actually be any essential form.

I recall Fr. Thierry Gaudray thundering in the Winona seminary that JP II's then-recent recognition of the Nestorian Anaphora (which he said had no explicit form of cosecration) was perhaps the most serious error in the post-conciliar disaster until that point.

Anyway, do you have any sources which can help clarify what the Church teaches in this regard?


3) Regarding +de Mallerais' alleged error (I say "alleged" out of respect for him) that the power to confirm is supplied to a simple priest:

I'm inclined to agree this is erroneous, based on a recent thread regarding Fr. Arrizaga.  If the NREC is valid, this is not a concrete problem, but if itis not, there would be implications for +Lazo's confirmations.

The reason the matter is not settled for me is that in a Nov/2022 interview with +Williamson in which he explained the ex adiunctis argument in relation to the NREC, he said that even the use of that principle does not remove all doubt regarding form.  Also, because Fr. Calderon still expresses his doubts on the matter (and a theologian of his caliber would certainly not be oblivious of the ex adiunctis argument/principle).



4) Regarding a supposed delegated power of a priest to ordain:

I am aware of the examples regarding these Roman delegations (which also arose in the recent Arrizaga confirmations thread), but I was also under the impression that, since they were quickly revoked/recalled after protest (at least as regards the Bul in England. See here: https://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/index.php?topic=15152.0 ), they could not easily be used as solid precedents for supposing priests were extraordinary ministers of ordination.

Can you provide more information in this regard?  The notion that "it is generally accepted that a priest is the extraordinary minister of ordination" is a new one to me (although I do know they can be delegated to confer minor orders and the subdiaconate).

Thanks in advance!
Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: MiracleOfTheSun on May 03, 2023, 02:14:10 PM
I would prefer to see the entire context of the email.
Maybe you can write the Dominicans and mention our discussion here, then kindly ask to get a copy of the email.  
Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: Marulus Fidelis on May 03, 2023, 02:26:22 PM
Bp. Tissier de Mallerais no longer holds the episcopal consecration form is invalid. Indeed, implicit in his private letter (which was based on a rushed reading of Cosmaraswany's booklet), is that he would also have to conclude that the old Abyssinian/Coptic rites must be invalid since they used the same form – something the Church has never said even when dealing with Anglican Orders (Anglicans used this in their defense). Rather, the form doesn’t become invalid but indeterminate and the correct intention is provided ex adjunctis.
Just to briefly comment that Fr. Cekada destroyed these errors about eastern rites using the new form. If you haven't read Cekada you haven't studied the issue, simple as.

Now to what I think is the crux of this ex adjunctis argument.

Is it necessary to say the adjunctis for the validity of the rite? Yes or no.

If your answer is yes you actually believe the whole rite is the form which is false.

If your answer is no then you imply the rite is actually invalid since an optional component is essential for validity.

Where is the fault in the logic?

Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: Ladislaus on May 03, 2023, 03:48:07 PM
2) Regarding the ex adiunctis argument:

Someone here (Ladislaus?) made the argument that Michael Davies'/+Williamson's ex adiunctis argument would rob the rite of any "essential form," thereby making it unessential. 

I'm not sure about the context, but the only thing I said about the adjuncta is that the adjuncta by themselves could invalidate even if the essential form were intact.  I don't believe that "good" adjuncta can supply for a lack of valid essential form.  It was Pope Leo XIII who stated that even after the Anglicans had scrambled to "fix" their defective form, the adjuncta were still so defective that the rite remained invalid.
Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: Plenus Venter on May 05, 2023, 07:57:08 AM
SeanJohnson made reference to it in a couple posts:

https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/bishop-tissier-de-malleraiss-sermon-for-pentecost/30/

https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-sermons/'eleison-comments'-by-mgr-williamson-16-february-2013/15/
Thanks for that, Rum, much appreciated. 
I see the pertinent quote from Sean: Bishop Tissier also wrote a letter to bishop Williamson saying basically it was a mistake for Archbishop Lefebvre to have consecrated him (revealed by Bishop Williamson in his December Toronto conference).
It looks like Sean has now posted that conference on this thread, with thanks!
Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: Plenus Venter on May 05, 2023, 11:57:10 PM
The only way to save the new rite of episcopal consecration is if the entire preface is considered the form, in that case it does appear to meet the requirements that Pope Pius XII laid down in Sacramentum Ordinis, because the entire preface does mention the power of the high priesthood and the Holy Ghost. If i recall correctly, the rite of episcopal consecration in the eastern rites has the entire preface as the form, and not just a few words like in the roman rite. The only problem with this theory is that Paul VI said that the few words which includes the phrase "governing spirit" is to be considered the form.
Well, that is in fact the meaning of Sacramentum Ordinis:

Sacramentum Ordinis - Papal Encyclicals (https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius12/p12sacrao.htm)

in the Episcopal Ordination or Consecration, the matter is the imposition of hands which is done by the Bishop consecrator. The form consists of the words of the “Preface,” of which the following are essential and therefore required for validity:

Just because the said words are essential, does not mean that the whole preface is not part of the form. It is, according to this docuмent. And of course, those 'essential words' are different in the other rites. Sacramentum Ordinis lays down the principles:

3. All agree that the Sacraments of the New Law, as sensible signs which produce invisible grace, must both signify the grace which they produce and produce the grace which they signify. Now the effects which must be produced and hence also signified by Sacred Ordination to the Diaconate, the Priesthood, and the Episcopacy, namely power and grace, in all the rites of various times and places in the universal Church, are found to be sufficiently signified by the imposition of hands and the words which determine it.

Don't misunderstand, I'm not arguing in favour of the new rite's validity. It's disputed, and I believe the only way that dispute can be resolved definitively is by the Magisterium which is on strike at the moment! However, I do consider it rash to definitively declare it certainly invalid when there are theological opinions to the contrary.
Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: Plenus Venter on May 05, 2023, 11:59:48 PM
The only problem with this theory is that Paul VI said that the few words which includes the phrase "governing spirit" is to be considered the form.
Paul VI said that? Do you have a reference for me please Dusty?
Was it an infallible declaration?
Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: Plenus Venter on May 06, 2023, 12:40:35 AM
Paul VI said that? Do you have a reference for me please Dusty?
Was it an infallible declaration?
I've answered my own question, thanks Dusty!

Finally, in the Ordination of a Bishop, the matter is the imposition of hands, performed in silence by the consecrating Bishops, or at least by the principal Consecrator, over the head of the Bishop-elect before the prayer of consecration. The form consists of the words of the same prayer of consecration, of which the following pertain to the essence of the rite, and hence are required for validity: "And now pour forth on this chosen one that power which is from you, the governing Spirit, whom you gave to your beloved Son Jesus Christ, whom be gave to the holy Apostles, who founded the Church in every place as your sanctuary, unto the glory and unending praise of your name." (Et nunc effunde super hunc electum eam virtutem, quae a te est, Spiritum principalem, quem dedisti dilecto Filio Tuo Jesu Christo, quem ipse donavit sanctis Apostolis, qui constituerunt Ecclesiam per singula loca, ut sanctuarium tuum, in gloriam et laudem indeficientem nominis tui) .

We ourselves, therefore, by Our Apostolic authority, approve the rite for the conferring of the sacred Orders of the Diaconate, the Presbyterate, and the Episcopate, a rite revised by the Consilium ad exsequendam Constitutionem de sacra Liturgia "after consultation with bishops from various parts of the world and with the aid of experts." (10), so that henceforth it may be used in the conferring of these Orders in place of the rite still found in the Roman Pontifical. - Paul VI, Pontificalis Romani, 1968


What is the prayer of the Consecration, since this is the form, that is the question. I can't put my hand on it right now, but no doubt this has all been discussed on another thread so sorry for derailing this one!

Here are a few thoughts from onepeterfive:

Objection 3: “Context” doesn’t matter. Only the essential form itself does.
Yes and no. The context plays a role in understanding what the words within the essential form itself mean. Thus, when there is a reference to “Spirit Who gives the Grace of High Priesthood” in the portion immediately after the essential form, that matters not because the words surrounding the form could confect the Sacrament validly, but because the meaning of the words in the essential form itself are thereby made clear.

So, Sixth, we have clear references to the Office of Bishop. This is not a rite for anything other than the Consecration of a Bishop to an Episcopal Office. An objection is made that the rite was sometimes used for Patriarchs, but that was when Patriarchs received Consecration upon their installation into office. The true but more developed doctrine of the distinction between Orders and Jurisdiction was more fully understood later on.

Seventh, we have references to “the Spirit Who gives the Grace of High Priesthood.” This signifies unequivocally both (1) the Grace of the Holy Ghost and (2) the specific Order of the Episcopate and confirms that “the Governing Spirit Whom You gave to Your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, the Spirit given by Him to His holy Apostles, who founded the Church” is the Spirit Who gives the Grace of High Priesthood, the Power of the Episcopate.

Eighth, not to belabour the point, but only to remove all unnecessary doubt and scruple, we have the final reference to the “authority You gave to Your Apostles,” a manifest reference to Episcopal Authority, also confirmed by reference to assigning ministries etc.

Fr. Marie points out (https://sspx.org/en/validity-new-rite-episcopal-consecrations-4) that all this does not mean the reform – non-infallible and not irreformable – is not otherwise problematic for other reasons:

Quote
Let it be said, though, that we are only speaking of the validity of the new rite as it was published by the Vatican. We do not speak of the legitimacy of this reform (was it good to suppress the Roman rite and replace it by an Eastern rite?), nor of the validity of the different translations and adaptations of the official right in divers particular cases…


Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: Angelus on May 06, 2023, 10:33:00 AM


We ourselves, therefore, by Our Apostolic authority, approve the rite for the conferring of the sacred Orders of the Diaconate, the Presbyterate, and the Episcopate, a rite revised by the Consilium ad exsequendam Constitutionem de sacra Liturgia "after consultation with bishops from various parts of the world and with the aid of experts." (10), so that henceforth it may be used in the conferring of these Orders in place of the rite still found in the Roman Pontifical. - Paul VI, Pontificalis Romani, 1968



Here is an incorrect English translation of that paragraph in Pontificalis Romani (https://www.vatican.va/content/paul-vi/la/apost_constitutions/docuмents/hf_p-vi_apc_19680618_pontificalis-romani.html) from Google Translate:

Quote
Therefore, this rite for the collation of the Sacred Orders of the Diaconate, the Presbyterate and the Episcopate, ... ,we ourselves approve by our apostolic authority, so that henceforth, instead of the rite still existing in the Roman Pontifical, it should be used in the conferring of these Orders.

That Google translation gives the false impression that Paul VI is approving the abrogation of the previous rite and requiring that the new rite be used in the future. That is not what his words say. 

Here is an alternative literal translation of the same (which is very close to the one that PV quoted above):

Quote
Therefore, this collection of rites of Sacred Orders of the Diaconate, Presbyterate, and the Episcopate, ... , We by our apostolic authority approve, so that henceforth, to the rite in the Roman Pontifical still extant, may be extended in conferring these Orders.

Here is the original Latin:

Hunc igitur ritum pro collatione Ordinum Sacrorum Diaconatus, Presbyteratus et Episcopatus, ... , Nosmet ipsi Apostolica Nostra auctoritate approbamus, ut posthac, pro ritu in Pontificali Romano adhuc exstante, adhibeatur in his Ordinibus conferendis.

Essentially, Paul VI created a parallel set of Orders that "may be used." These new, parallel Orders are the marks of the Counterfeit Catholic Church. But the real, valid, Orders still exist and can be and should be used. There is no pontifical abrogation of the Old Orders.


Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: SeanJohnson on May 06, 2023, 11:30:01 AM
Paul VI said that? Do you have a reference for me please Dusty?
Was it an infallible declaration?

Unless he explicitly referenced his intention to engage infallibility, then it is not.
Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: Plenus Venter on May 06, 2023, 08:01:26 PM
Essentially, Paul VI created a parallel set of Orders that "may be used." These new, parallel Orders are the marks of the Counterfeit Catholic Church. But the real, valid, Orders still exist and can be and should be used. There is no pontifical abrogation of the Old Orders.
Yes, good point, Angelus. Hardly a law enforced with infallible authority. Not that it even could be, in my opinion, as the role of the Pope in this regard is to preserve, guard, expound, clarify and transmit what he has received, not to revolutionise and concoct! As Archbishop Lefebvre put it so simply: I am simply the postman, delivering to you that which I have received. I did not write the letter! Unfortunately, the popes of the last 60 years or so have been busy re-writing!

Does that make them not pope? That is where we differ. I say no, that means we resist them. We do not have the right to make that decision. The Church needs to hold them to account (a Council, St Robert Bellarmine would say). There lies the mystery, as God has so allowed His Church to be overshadowed by this crisis that for the time being God wills that we must patiently suffer this evil, but as St Robert says:

But they will say, therefore, only the Church is without remedy if it has a bad Pope, and the Pope can disturb all things unpunished, and destroy and no one will be able to resist. I respond: No wonder if the Church remains without an efficacious human remedy, seeing that its safety does not rest principally upon human industry, but divine protection, since God is its King. Therefore, even if the Church could not depose a Pope, still it may and must beg the Lord that he would apply the remedy, and it is certain that God has care of its safety, that he would either convert the Pope or abolish him from the midst before he destroys the Church. Nevertheless, it does not follow from here that it is not lawful to resist a Pope destroying the Church; for it is lawful to admonish him while preserving all reverence, and to modestly correct him... (De Ecclesia, Bk II On The Authority of Councils, Ch XIX Protestant Responses are Refuted)
Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: Angelus on May 06, 2023, 09:51:08 PM
Well, that is in fact the meaning of Sacramentum Ordinis:

Sacramentum Ordinis - Papal Encyclicals (https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius12/p12sacrao.htm)

in the Episcopal Ordination or Consecration, the matter is the imposition of hands which is done by the Bishop consecrator. The form consists of the words of the “Preface,” of which the following are essential and therefore required for validity:

Just because the said words are essential, does not mean that the whole preface is not part of the form. It is, according to this docuмent. And of course, those 'essential words' are different in the other rites. Sacramentum Ordinis lays down the principles:

3. All agree that the Sacraments of the New Law, as sensible signs which produce invisible grace, must both signify the grace which they produce and produce the grace which they signify. Now the effects which must be produced and hence also signified by Sacred Ordination to the Diaconate, the Priesthood, and the Episcopacy, namely power and grace, in all the rites of various times and places in the universal Church, are found to be sufficiently signified by the imposition of hands and the words which determine it.

Don't misunderstand, I'm not arguing in favour of the new rite's validity. It's disputed, and I believe the only way that dispute can be resolved definitively is by the Magisterium which is on strike at the moment! However, I do consider it rash to definitively declare it certainly invalid when there are theological opinions to the contrary.


PV, we don't need to declare it "certainly invalid." The standard in the moral theology manuals is much lower. All one needs is enough evidence for possible invalidity to introduce a "positive doubt." Callan and McHugh (https://www.gutenberg.org/files/35354/35354-h/35354-h.html) state that a "tutiorist" stance must be taken when "there is question of the validity or invalidity of a Sacrament, for the virtue of religion requires that the Sacraments be administered with fidelity, and be not exposed to the peril of nullity."

What you and Dusty have brought up in Sacramentum Ordinis is evidence enough for "positive doubt." But there is enough evidence, I believe, for moral certainty in the matter.
  
Pull up Sacramentum Ordinis in Latin in one window and in the official English translation in another window. Notice how the words "validitatem" and "valorum" are used precisely (in the Latin) to mean different things. But in the English translation both of those different Latin words are translated as the same word, "validity."

Also, look at the use of the words referring to "essence" and "substance." These are technical theological terms. In Aquinas, these words refer to very different cognitive and ontological topoi. Any "substance" consists of "matter" and "form" as the genetic components of that "substance." A "substance" cannot "exist" unless there is FIRST a coalescence of matter and form. So a Sacrament (as a particular instance of the Eucharist, for example) cannot "exist" without the presence of BOTH matter and form. The "substance" refers to a particular reality, the thing itself.

An "essence" is very different. The "essence" of a thing is a mental abstraction of properties from already existing things possessing that "essence." The essence is determined by empirical examination of already existing realities (that is, things already built up by the coalescence of matter and form). Another name for "essence" in Thomism is quiddity, or the "whatness" of the thing.  An "essence" is conceptual in nature, a construct of the mind, it is not "the thing itself." 

So, only the "substance" of the Sacrament pertains to its "validity." This is Thomism. And it is the basis of the quote from Trent in paragraph 1 of SO, that the "substance of the Sacraments" cannot be changed. Note, however, that in SO paragraph 5, each quoted phrase mentioned is introduced as being "essentialia ideoque ad valorem requisita [essential and therefore required for value]." Nothing in the Latin text, in that section, refers to "substance" or "validity." What???? This should set off alarm bells.


So what is going on in paragraph 5? "Essences," using the precise Thomistic theological terminology, are not related to "validity," but instead, they can add "value" to help us understand the Sacrament better, in this case, the Sacrament of Orders. Why do they "add value?" Because they define the "whatness," or the quiddity, of the particular Order referenced. In other words, something "essential" is helpful to know, but it is not a constituent of "validity." Only the matter and form are constituents related to "validity" of a Sacrament, which is a "substance," an ontological reality. In the case of the Sacrament of Orders, the ontological reality is the indelible character imprinted on the soul of the recipient of the Sacrament.

So the "essential" words that are quoted in SO paragraph 5 are not required for "validity." They are simply the most important (highest value) words in the Preface. The ENTIRE PREFACE is required for "validity" because the ENTIRE PREFACE (and no less) is "the form." To apply the same idea to another Sacrament, would be like saying the following: "I baptize thee, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is the form of baptism, of which the word 'baptize' is essential and therefore required for value." In other words, don't use a word like "wash" or "cleanse" or whatever instead of "baptize" because the specific word "baptize" reflects something "essential" in that Sacrament. That particular word helps us understand Baptism in a definitive way.

Bottomline: Pius XII stated that "the form" of each Order is the ENTIRE Preface (for each level of Order). It is reductionism leading to invalidity to restrict the required words of "the form" to only the quoted words that are "essential and therefore required for value."


Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: Plenus Venter on May 06, 2023, 11:53:50 PM
PV, we don't need to declare it "certainly invalid." The standard in the moral theology manuals is much lower. All one needs is enough evidence for possible invalidity to introduce a "positive doubt." Callan and McHugh (https://www.gutenberg.org/files/35354/35354-h/35354-h.html) state that a "tutiorist" stance must be taken when "there is question of the validity or invalidity of a Sacrament, for the virtue of religion requires that the Sacraments be administered with fidelity, and be not exposed to the peril of nullity."
Yes, of course, we are in agreement there. There lies much of the gravity in what is happening now with Bishop Huonder.
Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: Plenus Venter on May 07, 2023, 12:12:02 AM
But there is enough evidence, I believe, for moral certainty in the matter.
 
Pull up Sacramentum Ordinis in Latin in one window and in the official English translation in another window. Notice how the words "validitatem" and "valorum" are used precisely (in the Latin) to mean different things. But in the English translation both of those different Latin words are translated as the same word, "validity."

Also, look at the use of the words referring to "essence" and "substance." These are technical theological terms. In Aquinas, these words refer to very different cognitive and ontological topoi. Any "substance" consists of "matter" and "form" as the genetic components of that "substance." A "substance" cannot "exist" unless there is FIRST a coalescence of matter and form. So a Sacrament (as a particular instance of the Eucharist, for example) cannot "exist" without the presence of BOTH matter and form. The "substance" refers to a particular reality, the thing itself.

An "essence" is very different. The "essence" of a thing is a mental abstraction of properties from already existing things possessing that "essence." The essence is determined by empirical examination of already existing realities (that is, things already built up by the coalescence of matter and form). Another name for "essence" in Thomism is quiddity, or the "whatness" of the thing.  An "essence" is conceptual in nature, a construct of the mind, it is not "the thing itself."

So, only the "substance" of the Sacrament pertains to its "validity." This is Thomism. And it is the basis of the quote from Trent in paragraph 1 of SO, that the "substance of the Sacraments" cannot be changed. Note, however, that in SO paragraph 5, each quoted phrase mentioned is introduced as being "essentialia ideoque ad valorem requisita [essential and therefore required for value]." Nothing in the Latin text, in that section, refers to "substance" or "validity." What???? This should set off alarm bells.


So what is going on in paragraph 5? "Essences," using the precise Thomistic theological terminology, are not related to "validity," but instead, they can add "value" to help us understand the Sacrament better, in this case, the Sacrament of Orders. Why do they "add value?" Because they define the "whatness," or the quiddity, of the particular Order referenced. In other words, something "essential" is helpful to know, but it is not a constituent of "validity." Only the matter and form are constituents related to "validity" of a Sacrament, which is a "substance," an ontological reality. In the case of the Sacrament of Orders, the ontological reality is the indelible character imprinted on the soul of the recipient of the Sacrament.

So the "essential" words that are quoted in SO paragraph 5 are not required for "validity." They are simply the most important (highest value) words in the Preface. The ENTIRE PREFACE is required for "validity" because the ENTIRE PREFACE (and no less) is "the form." To apply the same idea to another Sacrament, would be like saying the following: "I baptize thee, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is the form of baptism, of which the word 'baptize' is essential and therefore required for value." In other words, don't use a word like "wash" or "cleanse" or whatever instead of "baptize" because the specific word "baptize" reflects something "essential" in that Sacrament. That particular word helps us understand Baptism in a definitive way.

Bottomline: Pius XII stated that "the form" of each Order is the ENTIRE Preface (for each level of Order). It is reductionism leading to invalidity to restrict the required words of "the form" to only the quoted words that are "essential and therefore required for value."
Interesting, Angelus, but way above my pay grade!
I already pretend to be too much of a theologian as it is :-)
From my perspective, there are some serious minds on both sides of the debate, above all there is Fr Calderon in the SSPX who says there is a shadow of a doubt.
I think that makes it a little rash for non-theologians to make definitive judgments about certain validity or non. Only the Magisterium can do that, or so it appears to me.
But that should settle the matter for anyone in the SSPX, that is what is important. Then add to that the issue of defective intention.
As you say, and as Fr Calderon says, the sacraments are too important to our salvation to tolerate any doubt, which we are obviously obliged, before God, to remove, at the peril of our own damnation - if we are the ones who can remove that doubt and refuse to do so.
I would have thought that every priest in the SSPX has a role to play in removing this doubt with regard to the Huonder shenanigans.
However, they are becoming so subtly conciliarised that they now eat doubt for dinner without even knowing.
It is a grave matter.
Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: Plenus Venter on May 07, 2023, 12:14:26 AM
Hello Barry-

Can you please post a link to the original French of Fr. Pinaud?
Barry, great letter, please come back and tell us where to find the French original!
We need more priests to react like Fr Pinaud.
Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: trento on May 07, 2023, 09:32:01 AM
Does that make them not pope? That is where we differ. I say no, that means we resist them. We do not have the right to make that decision. The Church needs to hold them to account (a Council, St Robert Bellarmine would say). There lies the mystery, as God has so allowed His Church to be overshadowed by this crisis that for the time being God wills that we must patiently suffer this evil, but as St Robert says:

Not even a Council can depose a pope. But if it is a Council in union with a living pope denouncing a previous pope or declaring them to be antipopes, then yes that is possible.
Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: Ladislaus on May 07, 2023, 10:47:35 AM
I think that makes it a little rash for non-theologians to make definitive judgments about certain validity or non. Only the Magisterium can do that, or so it appears to me.

Nobody is makinga any definitive judgments about validity.  What's at issue is that there's clear positive doubt and for all intents and purposes we are required doubtful Sacraments invalid except in danger of death if we have no other option.
Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: Ladislaus on May 07, 2023, 10:49:17 AM
Interesting, Angelus, but way above my pay grade!

Angelus has been badly discredit on several issues already, displaying gross ignorance of basic concepts; his run-on text was absolute gibberish, thus giving the impression that it was erudite, but it was in point of fact meaningless.
Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: SeanJohnson on May 07, 2023, 10:59:37 AM
Not even a Council can depose a pope. But if it is a Council in union with a living pope denouncing a previous pope or declaring them to be antipopes, then yes that is possible.

Yet a council CAN declare the fact of a pope’s heresy, and that consequently God has deposed him.
Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: Plenus Venter on May 07, 2023, 08:39:12 PM
Nobody is makinga any definitive judgments about validity.  What's at issue is that there's clear positive doubt and for all intents and purposes we are required doubtful Sacraments invalid except in danger of death if we have no other option.
Agreed. Although some do make this definitive judgement, in line with "absolutely null and utterly void" and "still null and void"!
Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: Plenus Venter on May 07, 2023, 09:26:52 PM
Not even a Council can depose a pope. But if it is a Council in union with a living pope denouncing a previous pope or declaring them to be antipopes, then yes that is possible.
This is what St Robert Bellarmine says, Trento, in De Ecclesia, Bk I On Councils, Ch XXI On Lutheran Conditions:

"The third condition (my note - the third condition of the Lutherans is that the Roman Pontiff should not summon the Council, nor preside in it...) is unjust, because the Roman Pontiff cannot be deprived of his right to summon Councils and preside over them... unless he were first convicted by the legitimate judgement of a Council and is not the Supreme Pontiff... the supreme prince, as long as he is not declared or judged to have legitimately been deprived of his rule, is always the supreme judge... 

"It happens also that the Pope in a Council is not only the judge, but has many colleagues, that is, all the Bishops who, if they could convict him of heresy, they could also judge and depose him even against his will. Therefore, the heretics have nothing: why would they complain if the Roman Pontiff presides at a Council before he were condemned?

"The sixth condition (my note - the sixth condition of the Lutherans required to celebrate a Council is that the Roman Pontiff would absolve all prelates from the oath of fidelity, in which they have been bound) is unjust and impertinent. Unjust, because inferiors ought not be free from the obedience to superior, unless first he were legitimately deposed or declared not to be a superior... it is impertinent, because that oath does not take away the freedom of the Bishops, which is necessary in Councils, for they swear that they will be obedient to the Supreme Pontiff, which is understood as long as he is Pope, and provided he commands these things which, according to God and the sacred canons he can command; but they do not swear that they are not going to say what they think in the Council, or that they are not going to depose him if they were to clearly prove that he is a heretic."

These words seem to me a good argument favouring the 'Recognise and Resist' position: "THEY SWEAR THAT THEY WILL BE OBEDIENT TO THE SUPREME PONTIFF, ... PROVIDED HE COMMANDS THESE THINGS WHICH, ACCORDING TO GOD AND THE SACRED CANONS HE CAN COMMAND". It follows that the Pope can command things against God and the sacred canons in which case he is not to be obeyed, but to be resisted - and in the case of heresy, deposed, but not by any less than a Council, as is clearly the doctrine of Bellarmine.
Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: Plenus Venter on May 07, 2023, 10:01:04 PM
Not even a Council can depose a pope. But if it is a Council in union with a living pope denouncing a previous pope or declaring them to be antipopes, then yes that is possible.
Here is more from St Robert Bellarmine, Ch IX On the Utility or even the Necessity of Celebrating Councils:

d) The fourth reason is suspicion of heresy in the Roman Pontiff, if perhaps it might happen, or if he were an incorrigible tyrant; for then a general Council ought to be gathered either to depose the Pope if he should be found to be a heretic, or certainly to admonish him, if he seemed incorrigible in morals. As it is related in the 8th Council, act. ult. can. 21, general Councils ought to impose judgment on controversies arising in regard to the Roman Pontiff - albeit not rashly...
Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: Plenus Venter on May 07, 2023, 10:32:28 PM
Not even a Council can depose a pope. But if it is a Council in union with a living pope denouncing a previous pope or declaring them to be antipopes, then yes that is possible.
Just one more theologian on the subject - Suarez:

"I affirm: If he is a heretic and incorrigible, the Pope ceases to be Pope as soon as a declarative sentence of his crime is pronounced against him by the legitimate jurisdiction of the Church (...) In the first place, who should pronounce such a sentence? Some say that it should be the Cardinals; and the Church could undoubtedly assign this faculty to them, above all if it were established with the consent and decision of the Supreme Pontiffs, just as was done for the election. But to this day we do not read anywhere that such a judgment has been confided to them. For this reason, it must be affirmed that of itself it belongs to all the Bishops of the Church. For since they are the ordinary pastors and pillars of the Church, one should consider that such a case concerns them. And since by divine law, there is no greater reason to affirm that the matter involves some Bishops more than others, and since, according to human law, nothing has been established in the matter, it must necessarily be held that the matter should be referred to all of them, and even to a general Council. This is the common opinion of the doctors. One can read Cardinal Albano expounding upon this point at length in De Cardinalibus (q.35, 1584 ed, vol 13, p2)" - De Fide, Disp 10, Sect 6, n 10, pp 317-18



Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: trento on May 08, 2023, 02:28:40 AM
Yet a council CAN declare the fact of a pope’s heresy, and that consequently God has deposed him.

I'm not sure if that is feasible since a valid council requires the council to be in union with the Pope. The Pope has no superior on earth, not even a Council can judge or depose him, or else you fall into the error of the schismatic and heretical Greeks. The scenario you painted is possible with Conclavist councils which is another can of worms. Or like I said previously, a later Council in union with a later Pope can do so.
Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: Plenus Venter on May 08, 2023, 04:19:53 AM
I'm not sure if that is feasible since a valid council requires the council to be in union with the Pope. 
St Robert, again - Bk I, On Councils, Ch XIV, Certain Doubts are Answered:

...whether or not it is lawful for a Council to be summoned by anyone other than the Pope when the Pope should not summon it, for the reason that he is a heretic or a schismatic...
I respond that in no cause can a true and perfect Council... be convoked without the authority of the Pope, because he has the authority to define questions of faith. For the particular authority is in the head, in Peter; to whom it was commanded to confirm his brethren, and therefore for whom the Lord prayed lest his faith would fail (Luke 22). Still in... (this)... case an imperfect Council could be gathered which would suffice to provide for the Church from the head. For the Church, without a doubt, has the authority to provide for itself from the head, although it cannot, without the head, make determinations on many things on which it can with the head, as Cajetan rightly teaches in his little work,
de Potestate Papae c. 15 and 16, and much earlier on the priests of the Roman Church in their epistle to Cyprian, which is 7 in the second book of the works of Cyprian. Hence, the imperfect Council can happen, if either it is summoned by the college of Cardinals, or the Bishops themselves come together in a place of themselves.



Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: DustyActual on May 08, 2023, 11:11:28 AM
The author confuses defect of form and defect of intention. The SSPX have never claimed any of the New Rites are defective per se. Any conditional re-ordinations done in the past were due to defect of intention, which were done on a case by case basis and usually involved something the minister had said or done that may give a positive doubt regarding his intention.

Bp. Tissier de Mallerais no longer holds the episcopal consecration form is invalid. Indeed, implicit in his private letter (which was based on a rushed reading of Cosmaraswany's booklet), is that he would also have to conclude that the old Abyssinian/Coptic rites must be invalid since they used the same form – something the Church has never said even when dealing with Anglican Orders (Anglicans used this in their defense). Rather, the form doesn’t become invalid but indeterminate and the correct intention is provided ex adjunctis.

Another error Bp. TdM makes is in his claim that the power to confirm is supplied to a simple priest. Firstly, the Church has never defined what power is delegated by the pope; it could be one of order, or jurisdiction, or some order/jurisdiction hybrid, or some other unknown third power. But the supplementary principle will only supply jurisdiction. Secondly, if a delegated power of the pope can be supplied then why not the delegated power to ordain? There are at least three instances in medieval times where three different popes have delegated power to simple priests to ordain to the diaconate and priesthood. It is now generally accepted that a priest is the extraordinary minister of ordination.
If the common practice in the SSPX used to be to conditionally re-ordain novus ordo priests based on a defective intention of the ordaining bishop, then that begs the question of whether or not the SSPX has "realized" that doing conditional re-ordinations based on a defect of intention doesn't make any sense, and that it logically leads to accepting the new rite if ordination/episcopal consecration as valid per se.
Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: OABrownson1876 on May 08, 2023, 01:47:59 PM
I think that makes it a little rash for non-theologians to make definitive judgments about certain validity or non. Only the Magisterium can do that, or so it appears to me.

Let us not forget that when the New Mass was foisted upon us in 1969 there was a great multitude of "theologians" with their pre-Vatican II diplomas, who told us stupidos not to worry about the New Mass.  Just trust the theologians!   Fr Wathen always told us about these brilliant "theologians" who found absolutely no problem with The Great Sacrilege. 
Title: Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
Post by: MiracleOfTheSun on May 08, 2023, 05:14:55 PM
Let us not forget that when the New Mass was foisted upon us in 1969 there was a great multitude of "theologians" with their pre-Vatican II diplomas...

The head 'theologian', of course, was the Freemason Annibale Bugnini who initially went to work starting in 1948.  The other 'theologians' include those six Protestants brought in as 'observers' who gave their humble 'opinions' on the matter.  New rite concocted with the help of the sworn enemies of the Church.  Doesn't smell legit.