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Author Topic: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX  (Read 9862 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
« Reply #35 on: May 03, 2023, 03:48:07 PM »
Quote from: SeanJohnson on May 03, 2023, 11:39:05 AM
2) Regarding the ex adiunctis argument:

Someone here (Ladislaus?) made the argument that Michael Davies'/+Williamson's ex adiunctis argument would rob the rite of any "essential form," thereby making it unessential. 

I'm not sure about the context, but the only thing I said about the adjuncta is that the adjuncta by themselves could invalidate even if the essential form were intact.  I don't believe that "good" adjuncta can supply for a lack of valid essential form.  It was Pope Leo XIII who stated that even after the Anglicans had scrambled to "fix" their defective form, the adjuncta were still so defective that the rite remained invalid.
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Offline Plenus Venter

Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
« Reply #36 on: May 05, 2023, 07:57:08 AM »
Quote from: rum on May 03, 2023, 09:38:07 AM
SeanJohnson made reference to it in a couple posts:

https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/bishop-tissier-de-malleraiss-sermon-for-pentecost/30/

https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-sermons/'eleison-comments'-by-mgr-williamson-16-february-2013/15/
Thanks for that, Rum, much appreciated. 
I see the pertinent quote from Sean: Bishop Tissier also wrote a letter to bishop Williamson saying basically it was a mistake for Archbishop Lefebvre to have consecrated him (revealed by Bishop Williamson in his December Toronto conference).
It looks like Sean has now posted that conference on this thread, with thanks!
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Offline Plenus Venter

Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
« Reply #37 on: May 05, 2023, 11:57:10 PM »
Quote from: DustyActual on May 02, 2023, 03:39:08 PM
The only way to save the new rite of episcopal consecration is if the entire preface is considered the form, in that case it does appear to meet the requirements that Pope Pius XII laid down in Sacramentum Ordinis, because the entire preface does mention the power of the high priesthood and the Holy Ghost. If i recall correctly, the rite of episcopal consecration in the eastern rites has the entire preface as the form, and not just a few words like in the roman rite. The only problem with this theory is that Paul VI said that the few words which includes the phrase "governing spirit" is to be considered the form.
Well, that is in fact the meaning of Sacramentum Ordinis:

Sacramentum Ordinis - Papal Encyclicals

in the Episcopal Ordination or Consecration, the matter is the imposition of hands which is done by the Bishop consecrator. The form consists of the words of the “Preface,” of which the following are essential and therefore required for validity:

Just because the said words are essential, does not mean that the whole preface is not part of the form. It is, according to this docuмent. And of course, those 'essential words' are different in the other rites. Sacramentum Ordinis lays down the principles:

3. All agree that the Sacraments of the New Law, as sensible signs which produce invisible grace, must both signify the grace which they produce and produce the grace which they signify. Now the effects which must be produced and hence also signified by Sacred Ordination to the Diaconate, the Priesthood, and the Episcopacy, namely power and grace, in all the rites of various times and places in the universal Church, are found to be sufficiently signified by the imposition of hands and the words which determine it.

Don't misunderstand, I'm not arguing in favour of the new rite's validity. It's disputed, and I believe the only way that dispute can be resolved definitively is by the Magisterium which is on strike at the moment! However, I do consider it rash to definitively declare it certainly invalid when there are theological opinions to the contrary.
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Offline Plenus Venter

Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
« Reply #38 on: May 05, 2023, 11:59:48 PM »
Quote from: DustyActual on May 02, 2023, 03:39:08 PM
The only problem with this theory is that Paul VI said that the few words which includes the phrase "governing spirit" is to be considered the form.
Paul VI said that? Do you have a reference for me please Dusty?
Was it an infallible declaration?
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Offline Plenus Venter

Re: It's a Huonderful Life! Open Letter to Fr. Jorna, District Superior of the SSPX
« Reply #39 on: May 06, 2023, 12:40:35 AM »
Quote from: Plenus Venter on May 05, 2023, 11:59:48 PM
Paul VI said that? Do you have a reference for me please Dusty?
Was it an infallible declaration?
I've answered my own question, thanks Dusty!

Finally, in the Ordination of a Bishop, the matter is the imposition of hands, performed in silence by the consecrating Bishops, or at least by the principal Consecrator, over the head of the Bishop-elect before the prayer of consecration. The form consists of the words of the same prayer of consecration, of which the following pertain to the essence of the rite, and hence are required for validity: "And now pour forth on this chosen one that power which is from you, the governing Spirit, whom you gave to your beloved Son Jesus Christ, whom be gave to the holy Apostles, who founded the Church in every place as your sanctuary, unto the glory and unending praise of your name." (Et nunc effunde super hunc electum eam virtutem, quae a te est, Spiritum principalem, quem dedisti dilecto Filio Tuo Jesu Christo, quem ipse donavit sanctis Apostolis, qui constituerunt Ecclesiam per singula loca, ut sanctuarium tuum, in gloriam et laudem indeficientem nominis tui) .

We ourselves, therefore, by Our Apostolic authority, approve the rite for the conferring of the sacred Orders of the Diaconate, the Presbyterate, and the Episcopate, a rite revised by the Consilium ad exsequendam Constitutionem de sacra Liturgia "after consultation with bishops from various parts of the world and with the aid of experts." (10), so that henceforth it may be used in the conferring of these Orders in place of the rite still found in the Roman Pontifical. - Paul VI, Pontificalis Romani, 1968

What is the prayer of the Consecration, since this is the form, that is the question. I can't put my hand on it right now, but no doubt this has all been discussed on another thread so sorry for derailing this one!

Here are a few thoughts from onepeterfive:

Objection 3: “Context” doesn’t matter. Only the essential form itself does.
Yes and no. The context plays a role in understanding what the words within the essential form itself mean. Thus, when there is a reference to “Spirit Who gives the Grace of High Priesthood” in the portion immediately after the essential form, that matters not because the words surrounding the form could confect the Sacrament validly, but because the meaning of the words in the essential form itself are thereby made clear.

So, Sixth, we have clear references to the Office of Bishop. This is not a rite for anything other than the Consecration of a Bishop to an Episcopal Office. An objection is made that the rite was sometimes used for Patriarchs, but that was when Patriarchs received Consecration upon their installation into office. The true but more developed doctrine of the distinction between Orders and Jurisdiction was more fully understood later on.

Seventh, we have references to “the Spirit Who gives the Grace of High Priesthood.” This signifies unequivocally both (1) the Grace of the Holy Ghost and (2) the specific Order of the Episcopate and confirms that “the Governing Spirit Whom You gave to Your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, the Spirit given by Him to His holy Apostles, who founded the Church” is the Spirit Who gives the Grace of High Priesthood, the Power of the Episcopate.

Eighth, not to belabour the point, but only to remove all unnecessary doubt and scruple, we have the final reference to the “authority You gave to Your Apostles,” a manifest reference to Episcopal Authority, also confirmed by reference to assigning ministries etc.

Fr. Marie points out that all this does not mean the reform – non-infallible and not irreformable – is not otherwise problematic for other reasons:

Quote
Let it be said, though, that we are only speaking of the validity of the new rite as it was published by the Vatican. We do not speak of the legitimacy of this reform (was it good to suppress the Roman rite and replace it by an Eastern rite?), nor of the validity of the different translations and adaptations of the official right in divers particular cases…


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