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Author Topic: Is the Novus Ordo Mass valid?  (Read 5250 times)

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Is the Novus Ordo Mass valid?
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2013, 02:47:17 PM »
Quote from: Charlemagne
What I've never understood is how people who accept the post-Vat.II papal claimants can refuse to attend the NOM - a rite enforced and "celebrated" by the claimants themselves - when they have no access to another rite on Sundays and Holy Days.



This is a valid question, and I would answer it this way:

When one finds that his faith is in danger by assisting at
the local NovusOrdo circusmass, at that point he must
decide whether he should perhaps stand outside the
walls, in commemoration of St. Paul outside-the-walls,
or St. Lawrence outside-the-walls, for example (it helps
to have a precedent -- as we keep in mind that St. Paul
and St. Lawrence did not have any precedents!!).

One can stand outside the walls and pray the Rosary,
and wear the Brown Scapular, for Our Lady said, the day
would come when all we have left is the Rosary and the
Scapular.  

This should be done in simple silence, and not to look for
the opportunity to converse with others, unless, that is,
they are asking to join you in your penitential practice.

You can compare this behavior to what the sons of a
family would rightly do if their father comes home drunk.
Or, if their father goes insane, or commits adultery.  He
is still their father, but there is a wound, and there is no
longer the same kind of association with him that would
have been were he not on drugs or in public,
pertinacious sin.  

What if a local civic leader is living with a woman to
whom he is not married -- should he receive
Communion at Mass?  The Mass is valid, and the man is
a Catholic, but he is a public scandal by his living habits,
so he should be refused the sacraments until he repents.  

Well, the NovusOrdo circusmass is a public scandal
against the Faith, and as such, no one should be obliged
to attend it.  If everyone stopped coming and stood
outside praying the Rosary, how long do you suppose
that would go on before the priest comes out and starts
asking questions?  




Is the Novus Ordo Mass valid?
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2013, 03:10:43 PM »
Quote from: CathMomof7
When I came to SSPX about 4 years ago, I think I remember Father Hewko and Father Post warning that the Novus Ordo Mass was not a valid Mass.  

I say I think I remember because I am really not sure and I don't want to accuse them of saying something that did not say or having an opinion that they did not have.  But I really do think that is what I understood both of them to say.

I ask this because I haven't been going to SSPX for almost a year now.  I attend a private chapel, but I still talk to some of the friends we made while at SSPX.  Just recently a friend of mine who still attends brought this up in passing conversation, that the Novus Ordo Mass is valid just inferior.  To help me understand, this person likened it to food--some food is better for you than others, but it's all food.

I thought this a weird analogy, and it's just not something I believe personally about the Novus Ordo.  I, personally, don't believe it is a valid Mass and under no circuмstances will I attend.  I won't even attend an indult Mass by Novus Ordo priests because I can't be sure they are even valid priests.  Obviously, this is just my opinion, but I was wondering what the "official' SSPX stand is.

Like I said, I think I remember two priests saying that the Novus Ordo Mass was not valid.  I am not certain, so I am trying to clarify.  Has that position ever been taken by the Society or has the Society always held that the Novus Ordo Mass is valid, just inferior?




As I recall, I heard Fr. Hewko saying that SOME NovusOrdo Newmasses
are not valid, but we are not obliged to figure that out, and we should
not assist at them because of their doubtful validity, and other things.  
But the principle problem is the DANGER TO YOUR FAITH, and you are
responsible to protect your own faith from danger because you are the
guardian of your own faith, and nobody can do that job for you.

Furthermore, there is no one on planet earth who has the authority to
order you to put your faith in danger, that is, you are not obliged to
obey such an evil and unjust command.  So when the local bishop says
that you are obliged to attend Newmass on Sunday, you do not have to
obey his authority, since it would be false obedience, that is, your
obedience would be to a lie.


Quote from: Stubborn
Quote from: Quasimodo
I could be wrong but I thought that the position taken was that the bastard mass could be valid given the proper intention but that it is not a Catholic mass.


Well, either way it mocks the Holy Sacrifice and therefore it is sacrilegious - whether it's an invalid, or worse, a valid sacrilege,  is irrelevant.

Of course he goes into detail in order to prove what he states is truth - Fr. Wathen states it like this in his book, Who Shall Ascend?:

...."We postulated there [in the book The Great Sacrilege], and we continue to maintain, that everything about the New Mass is execrable.

(1) There was a sacrilege on the part of those who formulated it,

(2) a sacrilege on the part of the Pope (Paul VI) who imposed it upon the Church,

(3) which sin is being perpetuated by his present successor who has yet to suppress it;

(4) there is a sacrilege on the part of every priest whenever he offers it;

(5) and there is a sacrilege on the part of every person every time he attends
 it for any reason whatsoever."



 


That's a great list, Stubborn.  

Formulated, Imposed, Perpetuated, Offers, Attends

The word "imposed" is very appropriate, since that is what
Pope Paul VI did - he IMPOSED the Newmass, he INSTITUTED it,
he INSTALLED it, he FORCED IT upon the Faithful, but he did not
promulgate it.  Unfortunately, ABL and then all of the SSPX priests
have been saying for about 40 years that it was "promulgated"
but it was not so.  We were given the IMPRESSION that it was
promulgated, but that was like we were watching a magic show
and a rabbit was pulled out of the hat or something.  It was only
a DECEPTION.  


It was the essence of Diabolical Disorientation.





Is the Novus Ordo Mass valid?
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2013, 03:35:24 PM »
I appreciate these replies very much and especially the link to Fr. Wathen's book.  My friend has been a long time supporter of the SSPX and I am concerned about this new attitude that seems to be presenting itself.  This person was also quick to defend Francis as well, suggesting that, specifically, his recent comments regarding ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs were taken out of context.

As I have not attended SSPX in quite some time, I was just curious if they have taken a softer approach to the Novus Ordo Mass and the New Church in general or if this is perhaps something particular to this individual or chapel.


Is the Novus Ordo Mass valid?
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2013, 03:50:44 PM »
.

After all that, I forgot to answer the OP.

It seems to me that you generally can't rely on what the
devil says.  But when he is being exorcized, the devil can
be required to speak the truth, under the authority of
Jesus Christ.  The devil hates it when that happens.  

Curiously, there is one other time that you can pay close
attention to what the devil says, and that is in regards
to the Blessed Sacrament, for the devil knows when a
host or wine is validly consecrated.  The devil is able to
"see" or sense the presence of God incarnate.  It is a
bit mysterious that he was not able to do so when Jesus
walked the earth, but that was something that Our Lord
hid from him at the time, and it was only at the moment
that Jesus had died on the Cross that the devil suddenly
realized that he had been defeated.  

The movie The Passion of the Christ most effectively
depicts that scene, but it could be even more dramatically
displayed.  At the Final Judgment we will all be shown the
REAL movie, and that, you can be assured, will be the
blockbuster of all time, literally.

Quote

Like I said, I think I remember two priests saying that the Novus Ordo Mass was not valid.  I am not certain, so I am trying to clarify.  Has that position ever been taken by the Society or has the Society always held that the Novus Ordo Mass is valid, just inferior?



But what I wanted to say is, that when a satanist goes
out to get a host to use at a Black Mass, one where they
will not have a valid priest to do the consecration, but
one where they will have all or many of the other terrible
things they do to desecrate the host, they always look
for a host that was consecrated at a Traditional Latin
Mass, rather than at a NovusOrdo Newmass.  And this is
rather curious, especially due to the fact that when the
hosts are distributed in the hand, like Pope Francis is
wont to do, the recipient can most easily just pretend to
put it in his mouth, but actually conceal it in his hand and
then tuck it away in a pocket or a pouch to be abused,
later, like a spider that stores away prey wrapped in
spider web, not quite dead but lightly poisoned, so as
to be available for "snacking."  The Japanese did that
with POWs in WWII - they would cut off an arm or a
leg or a pound of flesh, which they would then eat,
because they were starving on a remote island, and they
kept American prisoners as victims to cannibalize.

It is much more difficult to receive a host on the tongue
and then find a place to hide where he can remove it from
his mouth without being noticed, so it can be used later.

I have been at several Masses where I have seen
someone do just this.  And in all cases they were people
who had a kind of sinister look about them, with shifty
eyes, and abrupt movements, that made them appear
to be trying to hide their true behavior that they would
like to do.

There was a recent news story where certain people in
the Vatican were found out selling consecrated hosts to
satanists, and the greatest demand is for hosts that are
from TLMs, not from Newmasses.

I had received it on good authority that satanists practice
a kind of game, where they place a lot of hosts out on
a table, in apparently random positions, perhaps a
hundred or more of them, of varying sizes and patterns
on their surface.  Then a person enters the room, usually
a woman who claims to be a witch, and her job is to
seek out the one host that is "real" - that is, validly
consecrated by a real priest.  Any actual witch will be able
to do this, and the reason is, she will not be able to bear
being "In the presence of He Who Is."

And for that ritual, they always strive to get a host from
a TLM, not from a Newmass, because when they use a
host from a Newmass, sometimes the witch can't 'find' it.  :furtive:




Is the Novus Ordo Mass valid?
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2013, 04:06:49 PM »
Considering that the SSPX wanted to "reunite" with the NO they must officially believe it is OK.  

I read that the SSPX does not conditionally re-ordain men who come to them from the NO, so again, I must assume they believe their ordination is valid therefore their Masses would be also.

Personally, I am suspicious enough to stay away from anything NO.

Marsha