Author Topic: Is the Novus Ordo Mass valid?  (Read 3705 times)

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Offline CathMomof7

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Is the Novus Ordo Mass valid?
« on: August 13, 2013, 10:20:52 AM »
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  • When I came to SSPX about 4 years ago, I think I remember Father Hewko and Father Post warning that the Novus Ordo Mass was not a valid Mass. I say I think I remember because I am really not sure and I don't want to accuse them of saying something that did not say or having an opinion that they did not have.  But I really do think that is what I understood both of them to say.

    I ask this because I haven't been going to SSPX for almost a year now.  I attend a private chapel, but I still talk to some of the friends we made while at SSPX.  Just recently a friend of mine who still attends brought this up in passing conversation, that the Novus Ordo Mass is valid just inferior.  To help me understand, this person likened it to food--some food is better for you than others, but it's all food.

    I thought this a weird analogy, and it's just not something I believe personally about the Novus Ordo.  I, personally, don't believe it is a valid Mass and under no circumstances will I attend.  I won't even attend an indult Mass by Novus Ordo priests because I can't be sure they are even valid priests.  Obviously, this is just my opinion, but I was wondering what the "official' SSPX stand is.

    Like I said, I think I remember two priests saying that the Novus Ordo Mass was not valid.  I am not certain, so I am trying to clarify.  Has that position ever been taken by the Society or has the Society always held that the Novus Ordo Mass is valid, just inferior?


    Offline Stubborn

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    Is the Novus Ordo Mass valid?
    « Reply #1 on: August 13, 2013, 11:44:54 AM »
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  • I encourage you to read The Great Sacrilege - which will leave no doubt that the new "mass" is indeed the great sacrilege. Written in 1971, you will see much of what was written then turned out to be prophetic.

    The whole "inferior" position is what comes from compromisers who have accepted the humanistic worship service of V2.

    I also highly recommend listening to Fr. Altenbach's True Mass Recordings to learn what the NO is all about.
    For a small gain they travel far; for eternal life many will scarcely lift a foot from the ground. - Thomas A Kempis


    Offline Quasimodo

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    Is the Novus Ordo Mass valid?
    « Reply #2 on: August 13, 2013, 12:07:31 PM »
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  • I could be wrong but I thought that the position taken was that the bastard mass could be valid given the proper intention but that it is not a Catholic mass.

    Offline s2srea

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    Is the Novus Ordo Mass valid?
    « Reply #3 on: August 13, 2013, 12:22:27 PM »
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  • Quote from: LordPhan


    http://www.sspx.org/SSPX_FAQs/q5_novus_ordo_missae.htm

    Quote
    E.  CONSIDERING WHAT HAS BEEN SAID, ARE WE OBLIGED IN CONSCIENCE TO ATTEND THE NOVUS ORDO MISSAE?

    If the Novus Ordo Missae is not truly Catholic, then it cannot oblige for one’s Sunday obligation. Many Catholics who do assist at it are unaware of its all pervasive degree of serious innovation and are exempt from guilt. However, any Catholic who is aware of its harm, does not have the right to participate. He could only then assist at it by a mere physical presence without positively taking part in it, and then and for major family reasons (weddings, funerals, etc).


    I should also point out when the SSPX says that it is Valid but illicit it says so ONLY for the mass as SAID IN THE RUBRICS of 1969. In which I might point out most of the Mass is said in Latin and all the abuses are not in it. AND IT IS STILL ILLICIT in that form.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Is the Novus Ordo Mass valid?
    « Reply #4 on: August 13, 2013, 01:41:10 PM »
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  • Quote from: Quasimodo
    I could be wrong but I thought that the position taken was that the bastard mass could be valid given the proper intention but that it is not a Catholic mass.


    Well, either way it mocks the Holy Sacrifice and therefore it is sacrilegious - whether it's an invalid, or worse, a valid sacrilege,  is irrelevant.

    Of course he goes into detail in order to prove what he states is truth - Fr. Wathen states it like this in his book, Who Shall Ascend?:

    ...."We postulated there [in the book The Great Sacrilege], and we continue to maintain, that everything about the New Mass is execrable. (1) There was a sacrilege on the part of those who formulated it, (2) a sacrilege on the part of the Pope (Paul VI) who imposed it upon the Church, (3) which sin is being perpetuated by his present successor who has yet to suppress it; (4) there is a sacrilege on the part of every priest whenever he offers it; (5) and there is a sacrilege on the part of every person every time he attends it for any reason whatsoever."


     
    For a small gain they travel far; for eternal life many will scarcely lift a foot from the ground. - Thomas A Kempis


    Offline Mea Culpa

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    Is the Novus Ordo Mass valid?
    « Reply #5 on: August 13, 2013, 01:46:51 PM »
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  • Quote from: CathMomof7
    To help me understand, this person likened it to food--some food is better for you than others, but it's all food.




    Since food is being used as an analogy........if there's just 1 drop of poison in a cake, would you still eat it?

     
    The Novus Ordo Missae, even when said with piety and respect for the liturgical rules… is impregnated with the spirit of Protestantism. It bears within it a poison harmful to the faith.” (Archbishop Lefebvre, Open Letter to Confused Catholics, p.29)

    “To avoid conforming to the evolution slowly taking place in the minds of priests, we must avoid – I could almost say completely – assisting at the New Mass.” (Archbishop Lefebvre, 1977)

    “This union which liberal Catholics want between the Church and the Revolution is an adulterous union – adulterous.  This adulterous union can only beget bastards.  Where are these bastards?  They are [the new] rites.  The [new] rite of  Mass is a bastard rite.  The sacraments are bastard sacraments.  We no longer know whether they are sacraments that give grace.  We no longer know if this Mass gives us the Body and the Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ. (…)  The priests emerging from the seminaries are bastard priests.” (Homily preached at Lille, August 29, 1976, before a crowd of some 12,000.)




    Offline Matto

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    Is the Novus Ordo Mass valid?
    « Reply #6 on: August 13, 2013, 01:49:01 PM »
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  • Quote from: Archbishop Lefebvre
    “This union which liberal Catholics want between the Church and the Revolution is an adulterous union – adulterous.  This adulterous union can only beget bastards.  Where are these bastards?  They are [the new] rites.  The [new] rite of  Mass is a bastard rite.  The sacraments are bastard sacraments.  We no longer know whether they are sacraments that give grace.  We no longer know if this Mass gives us the Body and the Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ. (…)  The priests emerging from the seminaries are bastard priests.” (Homily preached at Lille, August 29, 1976, before a crowd of some 12,000.)


    This is a great quote.
    I Love Watching Butterflies . . ..

    Offline Graham

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    Is the Novus Ordo Mass valid?
    « Reply #7 on: August 13, 2013, 02:12:00 PM »
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  • Problems of form and intent in the confection of the Eucharist, as well as in the ordination and consécration of the priests and bishops, render the NO mass (and most other sacraments) of doubtful validity. This is or was the official SSPX position wrt validity. Note that in this case 'doubtful' is a powerful qualifier; Catholics must not knowingly accept doubtful sacraments.


    Offline Charlemagne

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    Is the Novus Ordo Mass valid?
    « Reply #8 on: August 13, 2013, 02:18:36 PM »
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  • What I've never understood is how people who accept the post-VII papal claimants can refuse to attend the NOM - a rite enforced and "celebrated" by the claimants themselves - when they have no access to another rite on Sundays and Holy Days.
    "Kindness is for fools! They [modernists] want to be treated with oil, soap, and caresses, but they ought to be beaten with fists. In a duel, you don't count or measure the blows, you strike as you can. War is not made with charity. It is a struggle, a duel." -- Pope St. Pius X

    Offline TKGS

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    Is the Novus Ordo Mass valid?
    « Reply #9 on: August 13, 2013, 02:35:26 PM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn
    I encourage you to read The Great Sacrilege - which will leave no doubt that the new "mass" is indeed the great sacrilege. Written in 1971, you will see much of what was written then turned out to be prophetic.


    Archbishop Lefebvre's Open Letter to Confused Catholics openly questioned the validity of the new order though mostly because to requisite intention of the priest is generally missing because of the poor4 seminary training new order priests receive.

    But it was The Great Sacrilege, written and published in 1970, immediately upon the imposition of the new order service, that convinced me that I had to flee that monstrosity.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Is the Novus Ordo Mass valid?
    « Reply #10 on: August 13, 2013, 02:47:17 PM »
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  • Quote from: Charlemagne
    What I've never understood is how people who accept the post-Vat.II papal claimants can refuse to attend the NOM - a rite enforced and "celebrated" by the claimants themselves - when they have no access to another rite on Sundays and Holy Days.



    This is a valid question, and I would answer it this way:

    When one finds that his faith is in danger by assisting at
    the local NovusOrdo circusmass, at that point he must
    decide whether he should perhaps stand outside the
    walls, in commemoration of St. Paul outside-the-walls,
    or St. Lawrence outside-the-walls, for example (it helps
    to have a precedent -- as we keep in mind that St. Paul
    and St. Lawrence did not have any precedents!!).

    One can stand outside the walls and pray the Rosary,
    and wear the Brown Scapular, for Our Lady said, the day
    would come when all we have left is the Rosary and the
    Scapular.  

    This should be done in simple silence, and not to look for
    the opportunity to converse with others, unless, that is,
    they are asking to join you in your penitential practice.

    You can compare this behavior to what the sons of a
    family would rightly do if their father comes home drunk.
    Or, if their father goes insane, or commits adultery.  He
    is still their father, but there is a wound, and there is no
    longer the same kind of association with him that would
    have been were he not on drugs or in public,
    pertinacious sin.  

    What if a local civic leader is living with a woman to
    whom he is not married -- should he receive
    Communion at Mass?  The Mass is valid, and the man is
    a Catholic, but he is a public scandal by his living habits,
    so he should be refused the sacraments until he repents.  

    Well, the NovusOrdo circusmass is a public scandal
    against the Faith, and as such, no one should be obliged
    to attend it.  If everyone stopped coming and stood
    outside praying the Rosary, how long do you suppose
    that would go on before the priest comes out and starts
    asking questions?  



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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Is the Novus Ordo Mass valid?
    « Reply #11 on: August 13, 2013, 03:10:43 PM »
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  • Quote from: CathMomof7
    When I came to SSPX about 4 years ago, I think I remember Father Hewko and Father Post warning that the Novus Ordo Mass was not a valid Mass.  

    I say I think I remember because I am really not sure and I don't want to accuse them of saying something that did not say or having an opinion that they did not have.  But I really do think that is what I understood both of them to say.

    I ask this because I haven't been going to SSPX for almost a year now.  I attend a private chapel, but I still talk to some of the friends we made while at SSPX.  Just recently a friend of mine who still attends brought this up in passing conversation, that the Novus Ordo Mass is valid just inferior.  To help me understand, this person likened it to food--some food is better for you than others, but it's all food.

    I thought this a weird analogy, and it's just not something I believe personally about the Novus Ordo.  I, personally, don't believe it is a valid Mass and under no circumstances will I attend.  I won't even attend an indult Mass by Novus Ordo priests because I can't be sure they are even valid priests.  Obviously, this is just my opinion, but I was wondering what the "official' SSPX stand is.

    Like I said, I think I remember two priests saying that the Novus Ordo Mass was not valid.  I am not certain, so I am trying to clarify.  Has that position ever been taken by the Society or has the Society always held that the Novus Ordo Mass is valid, just inferior?




    As I recall, I heard Fr. Hewko saying that SOME NovusOrdo Newmasses
    are not valid, but we are not obliged to figure that out, and we should
    not assist at them because of their doubtful validity, and other things.  
    But the principle problem is the DANGER TO YOUR FAITH, and you are
    responsible to protect your own faith from danger because you are the
    guardian of your own faith, and nobody can do that job for you.

    Furthermore, there is no one on planet earth who has the authority to
    order you to put your faith in danger, that is, you are not obliged to
    obey such an evil and unjust command.  So when the local bishop says
    that you are obliged to attend Newmass on Sunday, you do not have to
    obey his authority, since it would be false obedience, that is, your
    obedience would be to a lie.


    Quote from: Stubborn
    Quote from: Quasimodo
    I could be wrong but I thought that the position taken was that the bastard mass could be valid given the proper intention but that it is not a Catholic mass.


    Well, either way it mocks the Holy Sacrifice and therefore it is sacrilegious - whether it's an invalid, or worse, a valid sacrilege,  is irrelevant.

    Of course he goes into detail in order to prove what he states is truth - Fr. Wathen states it like this in his book, Who Shall Ascend?:

    ...."We postulated there [in the book The Great Sacrilege], and we continue to maintain, that everything about the New Mass is execrable.

    (1) There was a sacrilege on the part of those who formulated it,

    (2) a sacrilege on the part of the Pope (Paul VI) who imposed it upon the Church,

    (3) which sin is being perpetuated by his present successor who has yet to suppress it;

    (4) there is a sacrilege on the part of every priest whenever he offers it;

    (5) and there is a sacrilege on the part of every person every time he attends
     it for any reason whatsoever."



     


    That's a great list, Stubborn.  

    Formulated, Imposed, Perpetuated, Offers, Attends

    The word "imposed" is very appropriate, since that is what
    Pope Paul VI did - he IMPOSED the Newmass, he INSTITUTED it,
    he INSTALLED it, he FORCED IT upon the Faithful, but he did not
    promulgate it.  Unfortunately, ABL and then all of the SSPX priests
    have been saying for about 40 years that it was "promulgated"
    but it was not so.  We were given the IMPRESSION that it was
    promulgated, but that was like we were watching a magic show
    and a rabbit was pulled out of the hat or something.  It was only
    a DECEPTION.  


    It was the essence of Diabolical Disorientation.



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    Offline CathMomof7

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    Is the Novus Ordo Mass valid?
    « Reply #12 on: August 13, 2013, 03:35:24 PM »
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  • I appreciate these replies very much and especially the link to Fr. Wathen's book.  My friend has been a long time supporter of the SSPX and I am concerned about this new attitude that seems to be presenting itself.  This person was also quick to defend Francis as well, suggesting that, specifically, his recent comments regarding homosexuals were taken out of context.

    As I have not attended SSPX in quite some time, I was just curious if they have taken a softer approach to the Novus Ordo Mass and the New Church in general or if this is perhaps something particular to this individual or chapel.


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Is the Novus Ordo Mass valid?
    « Reply #13 on: August 13, 2013, 03:50:44 PM »
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  • .

    After all that, I forgot to answer the OP.

    It seems to me that you generally can't rely on what the
    devil says.  But when he is being exorcized, the devil can
    be required to speak the truth, under the authority of
    Jesus Christ.  The devil hates it when that happens.  

    Curiously, there is one other time that you can pay close
    attention to what the devil says, and that is in regards
    to the Blessed Sacrament, for the devil knows when a
    host or wine is validly consecrated.  The devil is able to
    "see" or sense the presence of God incarnate.  It is a
    bit mysterious that he was not able to do so when Jesus
    walked the earth, but that was something that Our Lord
    hid from him at the time, and it was only at the moment
    that Jesus had died on the Cross that the devil suddenly
    realized that he had been defeated.  

    The movie The Passion of the Christ most effectively
    depicts that scene, but it could be even more dramatically
    displayed.  At the Final Judgment we will all be shown the
    REAL movie, and that, you can be assured, will be the
    blockbuster of all time, literally.

    Quote

    Like I said, I think I remember two priests saying that the Novus Ordo Mass was not valid.  I am not certain, so I am trying to clarify.  Has that position ever been taken by the Society or has the Society always held that the Novus Ordo Mass is valid, just inferior?



    But what I wanted to say is, that when a satanist goes
    out to get a host to use at a Black Mass, one where they
    will not have a valid priest to do the consecration, but
    one where they will have all or many of the other terrible
    things they do to desecrate the host, they always look
    for a host that was consecrated at a Traditional Latin
    Mass, rather than at a NovusOrdo Newmass.  And this is
    rather curious, especially due to the fact that when the
    hosts are distributed in the hand, like Pope Francis is
    wont to do, the recipient can most easily just pretend to
    put it in his mouth, but actually conceal it in his hand and
    then tuck it away in a pocket or a pouch to be abused,
    later, like a spider that stores away prey wrapped in
    spider web, not quite dead but lightly poisoned, so as
    to be available for "snacking."  The Japanese did that
    with POWs in WWII - they would cut off an arm or a
    leg or a pound of flesh, which they would then eat,
    because they were starving on a remote island, and they
    kept American prisoners as victims to cannibalize.

    It is much more difficult to receive a host on the tongue
    and then find a place to hide where he can remove it from
    his mouth without being noticed, so it can be used later.

    I have been at several Masses where I have seen
    someone do just this.  And in all cases they were people
    who had a kind of sinister look about them, with shifty
    eyes, and abrupt movements, that made them appear
    to be trying to hide their true behavior that they would
    like to do.

    There was a recent news story where certain people in
    the Vatican were found out selling consecrated hosts to
    satanists, and the greatest demand is for hosts that are
    from TLMs, not from Newmasses.

    I had received it on good authority that satanists practice
    a kind of game, where they place a lot of hosts out on
    a table, in apparently random positions, perhaps a
    hundred or more of them, of varying sizes and patterns
    on their surface.  Then a person enters the room, usually
    a woman who claims to be a witch, and her job is to
    seek out the one host that is "real" - that is, validly
    consecrated by a real priest.  Any actual witch will be able
    to do this, and the reason is, she will not be able to bear
    being "In the presence of He Who Is."

    And for that ritual, they always strive to get a host from
    a TLM, not from a Newmass, because when they use a
    host from a Newmass, sometimes the witch can't 'find' it.  :furtive:



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    Offline Marlelar

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    Is the Novus Ordo Mass valid?
    « Reply #14 on: August 13, 2013, 04:06:49 PM »
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  • Considering that the SSPX wanted to "reunite" with the NO they must officially believe it is OK.  

    I read that the SSPX does not conditionally re-ordain men who come to them from the NO, so again, I must assume they believe their ordination is valid therefore their Masses would be also.

    Personally, I am suspicious enough to stay away from anything NO.

    Marsha

     

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