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Author Topic: IS SSPX Seminary Promoting Bultmann?  (Read 8286 times)

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Offline AJNC

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IS SSPX Seminary Promoting Bultmann?
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2014, 12:26:36 AM »
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  • Quote from: 1st Mansion Tenant
    Father Hewko is a good and holy priest. I don't think he would have brought up the subject if he had any doubts about the truth behind such a serious accusation.

    Fr Chazal is also a good and holy priest. His statement shows charity towards the neo-SSPX in the absence of corroborative evidence.

    Until something more substantial surfaces in this matter, I think the subject should be dropped and the thread closed.  


    Holiness (in others and ourselves), like beauty, often exists in only in the mind of the beholder.
    Behold the holiness of JPII and JXXIII!


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    IS SSPX Seminary Promoting Bultmann?
    « Reply #16 on: June 24, 2014, 12:10:57 AM »
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  • Quote from: claudel
    Quote from: untitled
    "As for fr Pagliarani, all that I can gather points to his innocence on the issue of modernism. If Paolo can retract and amend, it would be a good sign for him. The situation is sufficiently bad as it is for us to exagerate, and we must be capable to retract, since it is precisely what we request from others." Fr. Chazal.

    http://aveclimmaculee.blogspot.mx/2014/06/abbe-chazal-nouvelles-dasie-au-20-juin.html


    I thank you sincerely for adding these remarks.

    What they tell me, loud and clear, is this: Father Chazal regards rash judgment as a sin—a grievous sin. Alas, the usual CI response to someone who thinks and speaks as Father Chazal does is to give him a spanking and send him off to bed without dinner! I, on the other hand, will be glad to sneak this honest priest some cookies and milk when the fanatics aren't looking.

    Lack of evidence—or as here, indeed, of reliable information of any sort—ought to act as a brake on mindless speculation and sinful slander and/or detraction. Hereabouts, however, it only ever acts as a spur. Shame on all you pharisees!

    Quote from: 1st Mansion Tenant
    The issue in question is … that Bultmann's heretical ideas were being taught to them in a positive light.


    There is no hard evidence in support of this claim. Ergo, it is not properly describable as an issue. Most of the commenters on this distasteful thread are using what little grey matter they possess in the service of sinful rash judgment, which for present purposes they have mendaciously renamed Logic.

    Lasciami un po' ridere!

    Quote from: 1st Mansion Tenant
    I think it is telling that the seminarian was given his walking papers the same day.


    I think it is far more telling that you are so ready to join others in thinking and speaking ill of a priest on the basis of third-hand hearsay. Perhaps you should read what Father Chazal wrote and think better.



    The question here is, claudel, why is this such a hot item of interest to you?  What is your dog in this race?  Are you a family member of the Rector or are you a minion of +Fellay?  

    It seems you're totally committed to spreading it on a bit thick that there is no doctrinal weakness going on in the SSPX seminaries.  So, why then are the new priests of a different breed than the priests of the "Old SSPX" as the great Fr. Girouard is wont to say?  

    If +F or Fr. Pfluger or Fr. Nely were writing your posts I can hardly imagine them being much different.  

    So what's up?  What's the big deal?  

    Are you aware, claudel, that all Fr. Pagliarani would have to do is write a public thesis opposed to the Modernism of Rudolf Bultmann for the world to see?   What's so difficult about that?  Could it be that he doesn't have it in him?  Perhaps he isn't really all that much convinced of the errors of Bultman, no?  Well, if that's not true, why wouldn't he say so and remove all doubt?

    Do you have a reason for that, or, which is more likely, are you going to reply (if at all) with calumny, ad hominem and cheap shots?

    Try sticking to the principles involved that is, if you're capable.

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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    IS SSPX Seminary Promoting Bultmann?
    « Reply #17 on: June 24, 2014, 12:20:00 AM »
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  • Quote from: AJNC
    Quote from: 1st Mansion Tenant

    Father Hewko is a good and holy priest. I don't think he would have brought up the subject if he had any doubts about the truth behind such a serious accusation.

    Fr Chazal is also a good and holy priest. His statement shows charity towards the neo-SSPX in the absence of corroborative evidence.

    Until something more substantial surfaces in this matter, I think the subject should be dropped and the thread closed.  

    Holiness (in others and ourselves), like beauty, often exists in only in the mind of the beholder.
    Behold the holiness of JPII and JXXIII!


    The problem with your screed, AJNC, is that beauty does not exist in the eye of the beholder.  That is a lie.  But if you go around believing lies, you end up confused, ergo, you're confused.  But you're posting nonetheless.  Holiness, like beauty, is not true if it doesn't exist in the mind of God.

    The fact is, Fr. Hewko would not have made this part of a RECORDED sermon without knowledge of the facts.  He met the seminarian, he saw the background.  He reviewed the details.  Maybe he did some research.  He even knows where the seminarian has now sought refuge, but nobody seems to care.  It's possible that the priest who now is finishing this seminarian's formation may well become one of the new Resistance bishops, and he could then ordain this seminarian.  

    Wouldn't that just make your skin crawl, AJNC?  

    There are a lot of ignorant comments going around in this topic.  Too many people are voicing pugnacious opinions who dare to question the motives of Fr. Hewko.  Are you aware he might be one of the episcopal candidates?  

    I think we're just about to see some pretty amazing things happen.  

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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    IS SSPX Seminary Promoting Bultmann?
    « Reply #18 on: June 24, 2014, 12:32:42 AM »
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  • Quote from: 1st Mansion Tenant
    The issue in question  is not that the seminarians were being taught about Bultmann; but that Bultmann's heretical ideas were being taught to them in a positive light. I think it is telling that the seminarian was given his walking papers the same day.


    You're going a bit far afield, 1MT, saying they were being taught that way.  It would seem they were not being taught that way, but that wouldn't be necessary.

    It wouldn't have to even be in a positive light.  All it would have to be is like,

    "Here is the work of Rudolf Bultmann on the exegesis of Scripture, the source of Matthew's Gospel, the miracles of Jesus."
     

    No inference, no value judgment, no cotton, no condemnation.  None is necessary.

    It's enough to make any Freemason right proud.

    Think of it this way:  show pornography for sex ed class and don't say it's good or bad, but just, "There they are, the photographs of Wile E. Coyote."



    Dear caludel, please note:  nobody said that someone specific is a Freemason.
     
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    Offline claudel

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    IS SSPX Seminary Promoting Bultmann?
    « Reply #19 on: June 24, 2014, 05:21:59 PM »
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  • Quote from: Neil Obstat
    The question here is, claudel, why is this such a hot item of interest to you? What is your dog in this race? What's the big deal?


    This is rich. You have no evidence for the calumnies you propagate, and so you try turning the tables by demanding that yours truly, who has been so impolite as to notice the stupid and evil conduct you promote, prove that he's not just shilling for Fellay, your private perennial devil figure.

    So are you still beating your rent boy, Neil?

    Quote from: Neil Obstat
    Try sticking to the principles involved[note the missing semicolon here] that is, if you're capable.


    First things first: you wouldn't recognize a principle if it bit you in the butt.

    Now shut up and eat your plankton, like a good krill, before it gets stale, dear. Leave moral discourse to critters who understand that cutting and pasting aren't equivalent to thinking.

    Work on your spelling and grammar, too. Being the conformist you are, you should understand that these are areas in life where conformity serves a genuine purpose.

    The bottom line is that in this matter, I stand with Father Chazal, whereas you stand with Telesphorus and dmarie. Keep that disinfectant handy.


    Offline Graham

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    IS SSPX Seminary Promoting Bultmann?
    « Reply #20 on: June 24, 2014, 05:56:32 PM »
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  • Quote from: claudel
    Quote from: Neil Obstat
    The question here is, claudel, why is this such a hot item of interest to you? What is your dog in this race? What's the big deal?


    This is rich. You have no evidence for the calumnies you propagate, and so you try turning the tables by demanding that yours truly, who has been so impolite as to notice the stupid and evil conduct you promote, prove that he's not just shilling for Fellay, your private perennial devil figure.

    So are you still beating your rent boy, Neil?

    Quote from: Neil Obstat
    Try sticking to the principles involved[note the missing semicolon here] that is, if you're capable.


    First things first: you wouldn't recognize a principle if it bit you in the butt.

    Now shut up and eat your plankton, like a good krill, before it gets stale, dear. Leave moral discourse to critters who understand that cutting and pasting aren't equivalent to thinking.

    Work on your spelling and grammar, too. Being the conformist you are, you should understand that these are areas in life where conformity serves a genuine purpose.

    The bottom line is that in this matter, I stand with Father Chazal, whereas you stand with Telesphorus and dmarie. Keep that disinfectant handy.


    Tele's position is that the claim should be investigated so far as possible, but that there is no reason to treat a neo-SSPX priest's claim to a thoroughly anti-modernist reputation as greater than a Resistance seminarian's testimony about his experience under that priest. It is certainly a solid point, provided one can admit that the SSPX has liberalized, as such credible people as +Williamson, Dom Aquinas, and the Dominicans of Avrille assert; granted that the testimony does indicate a degree of modernism in the priest that we would all rather not admit. The consequence would be that while Fr. Chazal in requesting a retraction went too far, at the same time nobody in the Resistance should exaggerate the force of this testimony.

    Offline claudel

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    IS SSPX Seminary Promoting Bultmann?
    « Reply #21 on: June 24, 2014, 09:45:14 PM »
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  • Morally speaking, I don't think that Tele's position passes the smell test. Legally speaking, I know it doesn't. Not even a minimal evidentiary standard for public airing of the matter has been met. The accuser—even were it retrospectively to be shown that he has been as pure as the driven snow in his motives and allegations—has no present entitlement to be considered legally or morally credible. He is an interested party in this affair, as literally everyone knows. Indeed, he is an aggrieved party, in that he appears to have been expelled from the seminary by the very priest he accuses of effectively subverting the Faith. (Yet even as to that, hard facts are as scarce as hen's teeth.)

    Had a similar situation arisen in Spain in the sixteenth or seventeenth century, the Inquisition would have told him what someone ought to tell Telesphorus and Neil and all too many others: "Since you are not a disinterested party in this matter, your charges require corroboration before any proceeding can be initiated, at the very least to prevent the appearance of a retaliatory prosecution. In the meantime, you make yourself liable to an action for slander or worse if you attempt to publicly blacken the reputation of a man solely because you allege that he has done you an injustice."

    Everyone who has been braying about this matter has in effect been claiming the same exemption from moral norms: namely, "This is Fellay's SSPX we're talking about! What need have we of witnesses!" No one who claims such an exemption merits anything but the selfsame contempt that we Christians have accorded Caiphas for two millennia.

    Note, too, that the "witness" to the accuser's grief—a snarky wiseass with zero credibility in my book—also expects everyone to buy the story on his unverified say-so. As the stench of dishonesty and dishonor grows almost by the hour, the number of people ready to deep-six the rudiments of commutative justice in order to get at someone who hasn't yet abandoned +Fellay is truly nauseating. Were any of these people to be condemned without corroboration by an accuser with a similar ax to grind, they'd make Abe Foxman look like Patience on a monument smiling at Grief!

    Father Chazal's expressed position in this affair is, as I see it, literally the only morally licit one. What is more—I say this for the record—should it turn out (against the odds) that the accuser  is right and the priest at the seminary is as bad as his accuser claims, I shall not have even the slightest regret at having taken the position I take. The end never justifies the means, and the means being taken to condemn the accused stink to high heaven.
    ________________________________

    In closing, at the risk of introducing a bit of reality to this mess, I'd be curious to know the answers to several questions:

    (1) Who amongst those who know better than the rector of the seminary what seminarians should be taught had ever heard of Rudolf Bultmann prior to June 10?

    (2) Whatever the answer to (1), who has read anything actually written by Bultmann (minimum word count = 250)?

    (3) Of those answering (2) affirmatively, who has read anything by Bultmann between the pages of a book; that is, in a medium not as inherently falsifiable as a website?

    (4) Of those answering (3) affirmatively, who can provide a title, a publisher, and a summary of what he has read—specifically, a summary demonstrating at least a modicuм of understanding?

    (5) Finally, of those answering (4) affirmatively, who can provide a reasoned argument why a priest-in-training should not be taught how to read this famous and articulate opponent of traditional Catholic exegesis in such a manner as to be equipped to refute or contest his claims in the interest of the salvation of souls?

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    IS SSPX Seminary Promoting Bultmann?
    « Reply #22 on: June 27, 2014, 07:52:45 AM »
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  • .

    Oh, look:   I touched a nerve!   :farmer:


    Quote from: Neil Obstat
    Quote from: claudel
    Quote from: untitled
    "As for fr Pagliarani, all that I can gather points to his innocence on the issue of modernism. If Paolo can retract and amend, it would be a good sign for him. The situation is sufficiently bad as it is for us to exagerate, and we must be capable to retract, since it is precisely what we request from others." Fr. Chazal.

    http://aveclimmaculee.blogspot.mx/2014/06/abbe-chazal-nouvelles-dasie-au-20-juin.html


    I thank you sincerely for adding these remarks.

    What they tell me, loud and clear, is this: Father Chazal regards rash judgment as a sin—a grievous sin. Alas, the usual CI response to someone who thinks and speaks as Father Chazal does is to give him a spanking and send him off to bed without dinner! I, on the other hand, will be glad to sneak this honest priest some cookies and milk when the fanatics aren't looking.

    Lack of evidence—or as here, indeed, of reliable information of any sort—ought to act as a brake on mindless speculation and sinful slander and/or detraction. Hereabouts, however, it only ever acts as a spur. Shame on all you pharisees!

    Quote from: 1st Mansion Tenant
    The issue in question is … that Bultmann's heretical ideas were being taught to them in a positive light.


    There is no hard evidence in support of this claim. Ergo, it is not properly describable as an issue. Most of the commenters on this distasteful thread are using what little grey matter they possess in the service of sinful rash judgment, which for present purposes they have mendaciously renamed Logic.

    Lasciami un po' ridere!

    Quote from: 1st Mansion Tenant
    I think it is telling that the seminarian was given his walking papers the same day.


    I think it is far more telling that you are so ready to join others in thinking and speaking ill of a priest on the basis of third-hand hearsay. Perhaps you should read what Father Chazal wrote and think better.



    The question here is, claudel, why is this such a hot item of interest to you?  What is your dog in this race?  Are you a family member of the Rector or are you a minion of +Fellay?  


    No answer, of course.

    Quote
    It seems you're totally committed to spreading it on a bit thick that there is no doctrinal weakness going on in the SSPX seminaries.  So, why then are the new priests of a different breed than the priests of the "Old SSPX" as the great Fr. Girouard is wont to say?  

    If +F or Fr. Pfluger or Fr. Nely were writing your posts I can hardly imagine them being much different.  

    So what's up?  What's the big deal?  


    No answer, of course.

    Quote
    Are you aware, claudel, that all Fr. Pagliarani would have to do is write a public thesis opposed to the Modernism of Rudolf Bultmann for the world to see?   What's so difficult about that?  Could it be that he doesn't have it in him?  Perhaps he isn't really all that much convinced of the errors of Bultman, no?  Well, if that's not true, why wouldn't he say so and remove all doubt?


    No answer, of course.

    Quote

    Do you have a reason for that, or, which is more likely, are you going to reply (if at all) with calumny, ad hominem and cheap shots?



    Bull's eye:  calumny, ad hominem and cheap shots, as expected.

    Surprise, surprise!   :clown:


    Quote


    Try sticking to the principles involved

    that is, if you're capable.


    .


    NOT capable.  (IOW, incapable)

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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    IS SSPX Seminary Promoting Bultmann?
    « Reply #23 on: June 27, 2014, 08:06:25 AM »
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  • .




    All Fr. Pagliarani would have to do is write a public thesis

    opposed to the Modernism of Rudolf Bultmann.

    What's so difficult about that?  

    Could it be that he doesn't have it in him?  

    Could it be, he's not really all that much convinced of the errors of Bultmann?  

    If he IS convinced, then why wouldn't he say so and remove all doubt?

    .
    .
    .


    The OBVIOUS Reason


    What is the OBVIOUS reason Fr. Pagliarani will not publicly denounce the errors of Rudolf Bultmann,

    or perhaps, produce a reasoned refutation of some of his errors for all to see,

    but instead, will go on mentioning them in his curriculum,

    and other heresies and proximate heresies like them,

    just as business as usual,

    as if this did not happen?



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    Offline hollingsworth

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    IS SSPX Seminary Promoting Bultmann?
    « Reply #24 on: June 27, 2014, 11:46:00 AM »
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  • Claudel:
    Quote
    The bottom line is that in this matter, I stand with Father Chazal, whereas you stand with Telesphorus and dmarie. Keep that disinfectant handy.


    I have no particular interest in this thread.  Liberalism, many of us will agree, has snuck into the neo-sspx.  Granted, whether or not Bultmann's ideas are taught actively or passively at La Reja has yet to be proven.  It's the rather snarly Claudel who interests me.  Claudel, Fr. Chazal, for the moment anyway, seems to pass your "smell test."  How about Fr. Hewko?  You've said nothing about him to my knowledge.  Does he pass your "smell test?"  He's the one who passed the story on initially, wasn't he?  Does Father wind up in your pile of calumnious, forum member rejects?  Just wondering.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    IS SSPX Seminary Promoting Bultmann?
    « Reply #25 on: June 28, 2014, 11:04:08 AM »
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  • .




    All Fr. Pagliarani would have to do is write a public thesis

    opposed to the Modernism of Rudolf Bultmann.

    What's so difficult about that?  



    Could it be that he doesn't have it in him?  

    Could it be that he's not really so convinced the errors of Bultmann are errors?  

    If he IS convinced, then why wouldn't he say so and remove all doubt?

    .
    .
    .


    The OBVIOUS Reason


    What is the OBVIOUS reason Fr. Pagliarani will not publicly denounce the errors of Rudolf Bultmann,

    that is,

    Why won't he produce a reasoned refutation of some of Bultmann's errors for all to see?



    Why would he, instead, likely go on mentioning those errors in his curriculum,

    as with other heresies and proximate heresies like them, without censure,

    as other SSPX rectors in other seminaries have been doing,

    IOW, just as business as usual,  

    according to Benedict XVI's hermeneutic of continuity,

    as if this had not happened?



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    Offline holysoulsacademy

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    IS SSPX Seminary Promoting Bultmann?
    « Reply #26 on: June 28, 2014, 09:50:51 PM »
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  • Quote from: Neil Obstat
    .




    All Fr. Pagliarani would have to do is write a public thesis

    opposed to the Modernism of Rudolf Bultmann.

    What's so difficult about that?  



    Could it be that he doesn't have it in him?  

    Could it be that he's not really so convinced the errors of Bultmann are errors?  

    If he IS convinced, then why wouldn't he say so and remove all doubt?

    .
    .
    .


    The OBVIOUS Reason


    What is the OBVIOUS reason Fr. Pagliarani will not publicly denounce the errors of Rudolf Bultmann,

    that is,

    Why won't he produce a reasoned refutation of some of Bultmann's errors for all to see?



    Why would he, instead, likely go on mentioning those errors in his curriculum,

    as with other heresies and proximate heresies like them, without censure,

    as other SSPX rectors in other seminaries have been doing,

    IOW, just as business as usual,  

    according to Benedict XVI's hermeneutic of continuity,

    as if this had not happened?



    .


    What kind of evidence would be sufficient to quell such accusations of calumny towards Fr. Hewko?  A video/audio recording of the lesson?  Any of those can be doctored quite professionally anyways. At the end of it all, it is the integrity of the person bringing testimony that matters.  If Fr. Hewko says it is so, I am inclined to believe him unless, proof otherwise is provided, such as denouncing Bultmann, that would be a good start.

    Offline cathman7

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    IS SSPX Seminary Promoting Bultmann?
    « Reply #27 on: June 29, 2014, 05:47:10 AM »
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  • Quote from: Neil Obstat
    .




    All Fr. Pagliarani would have to do is write a public thesis

    opposed to the Modernism of Rudolf Bultmann.

    What's so difficult about that?  



    Could it be that he doesn't have it in him?  

    Could it be that he's not really so convinced the errors of Bultmann are errors?  

    If he IS convinced, then why wouldn't he say so and remove all doubt?

    .
    .
    .


    The OBVIOUS Reason


    What is the OBVIOUS reason Fr. Pagliarani will not publicly denounce the errors of Rudolf Bultmann,

    that is,

    Why won't he produce a reasoned refutation of some of Bultmann's errors for all to see?



    Why would he, instead, likely go on mentioning those errors in his curriculum,

    as with other heresies and proximate heresies like them, without censure,

    as other SSPX rectors in other seminaries have been doing,

    IOW, just as business as usual,  

    according to Benedict XVI's hermeneutic of continuity,

    as if this had not happened?



    .


    The burden of proof does not lie with Fr. Pagliarani but with those who have accused him. Fr. Hewko, as good of a priest as he is, (I have no doubt about that), should not have ran with the seminarian's story.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    IS SSPX Seminary Promoting Bultmann?
    « Reply #28 on: June 30, 2014, 04:18:46 PM »
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  • Quote from: obscurus
    Quote from: Neil Obstat
    .




    All Fr. Pagliarani would have to do is write a public thesis

    opposed to the Modernism of Rudolf Bultmann.

    What's so difficult about that?  



    Could it be that he doesn't have it in him?  

    Could it be that he's not really so convinced the errors of Bultmann are errors?  

    If he IS convinced, then why wouldn't he say so and remove all doubt?

    .
    .
    .


    The OBVIOUS Reason


    What is the OBVIOUS reason Fr. Pagliarani will not publicly denounce the errors of Rudolf Bultmann,

    that is,

    Why won't he produce a reasoned refutation of some of Bultmann's errors for all to see?



    Why would he, instead, likely go on mentioning those errors in his curriculum,

    as with other heresies and proximate heresies like them, without censure,

    as other SSPX rectors in other seminaries have been doing,

    IOW, just as business as usual,  

    according to Benedict XVI's hermeneutic of continuity,

    as if this had not happened?



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    The burden of proof does not lie with Fr. Pagliarani but with those who have accused him. Fr. Hewko, as good of a priest as he is, (I have no doubt about that), should not have ran with the seminarian's story.



    While I agree, burden of proof... should not have run,  NONETHELESS, the response of the Menzingen-denizens is sufficient.  Or, that is, lack of sufficiency thereof.  

    EXAMPLE:
    If what Fr. Hewko had said had been false?  Then, it would be an utterly simple thing to prove it as such, in one act:  all Fr. Pagliarani would have to do is produce a denunciation of Bultmann's errors.  Simple.  Case closed.  And Fr. Hewko would jump at the chance to apologize and publicly eat his own words, I'm sure.  Everything would be settled!!

    But he'll never get the chance to eat his words because Fr. Pagliarani isn't going to make any such denouncement of Bultmann.  That's not a criticism of Fr. Pagliarani, but rather a statement of fact, that is, a fact that some are unwilling to face.  

    How do I know that's the truth?  

    Well, the answer to that should be obvious. Question:  What's so 'obvious' about it?  



    Hint:  Ask Bishop Fellay why this is obvious, and watch his response.  He won't have one.  He'll change topics.  


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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    IS SSPX Seminary Promoting Bultmann?
    « Reply #29 on: June 30, 2014, 04:29:07 PM »
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    Do you need a bigger hint?  

    Regardless of whether Fr. Pagliarani would LIKE to denounce the errors of Bultmann in public -- that is a moot point, for I'm sure he WOULD like to do so (at least for his own sake, I should think he would like to do so).  The reason that he in fact will not do so is not because he's really hard on himself or practicing voluntary penance by not doing so, or that he thinks it's in the best interests of the Faith of Catholics for him to refrain from such condemnation of error as this.  There's another reason that is definitive.



    This is an open question.  This is an open forum.  Anyone can answer.  

    It's an open invitation  --  open to ALL CATHINFO MEMBERS!!  






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