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Author Topic: Is Fr. Chazal Sedeprivationist?  (Read 5706 times)

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Offline Centroamerica

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Re: Is Fr. Chazal Sedeprivationist?
« Reply #30 on: March 16, 2018, 09:13:50 PM »
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  • That doesn't answer the question. And I don't think that he said that the novus ordo sacraments are invalid. I believe that he said that they are valid but illicit. That's not the same thing.
    Ecône, 28 oct. 1988
    Very dear Mr. Wilson,
    thank you very much for your kind letter. I agree with your desire to reordain conditionnaly these priests, and I have done this reordination many times.
    All sacraments from the modernists bishops or priests are doubtfull now.  The changes are increasing and their intentions are no more catholics.
    We are in the time of great apostasy.
    We need more and more bishops and priests very catholics.  It is necessary everywhere in the world.
    Thank you for the newspaper article from the Father Alvaro Antonio Perez Jesuit!
    We must pray and work hardly to extend the kingdom of Jesus-Christ.
    I pray for you and your lovely family.
    Devotly in Jesus and Mary.
    Marcel Lefebvre
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Is Fr. Chazal Sedeprivationist?
    « Reply #31 on: March 17, 2018, 07:37:17 AM »
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  • So I'm still not clear on what Fr Chazal's position is.  It seems that further clarifications don't actually clarify.  

    PS.  Could we try not to use "SP" as an abbreviation in these discussions?  That could stand for sedeplenist or sedeprivationist and as a result only add to the confusion.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)


    Offline cathman7

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    Re: Is Fr. Chazal Sedeprivationist?
    « Reply #32 on: March 17, 2018, 07:55:27 PM »
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  • I read Bishop Sanborn’s explanation and and it was concrete & straightforward enough for me: Bergoglio has an election yet has to convert to receive the the obviously missing infallible power so succinctly explained by Fr. Ringrose. Maybe try reading him — very concrete.
     
    But, respectfully, if you do “not understand” Bishop Sanborn how do you presume to make a response? Especially one that implies he has erred in his position?
     
    In expressing your above thoughts, from the vantage of your understanding obscured by the reading being “far too abstract for” you, are you implying that Formal Authority must exist at all times in order for the Church to continue existing? If so, where does the Church teach the idea that the Perpetuity of the Hierarchy consists in the ACTUAL existence of a pope or otherwise subject of actually holding ordinary jurisdiction? Or is this another R&R imposed concoction?
     
    It seems to me that you would do far better to follow Frs Ringrose and Chazal in first holding to Christ’s teaching that it is impossible for the Teaching Authority to err in its universal teaching. Things will probably be far less obscure for you once you drop the this R&R error.
    Thank you for your measured response. Far be it from me to rebut Bp. Sanborn. He has been studying this question for what 40 years now? (But in the process does he become an oracle that has understood the truth and no one else has? I guess it is good that he is so confident!)

    I am not being entirely clear because it is a confusing issue. You cannot possibly hold that against me or anyone else for that matter on a matter of theological speculation. What I mean to say is the following (and this is more for my own clarification of thinking):

    - Christ instituted a hierarchical Church upon St. Peter

    ....but according to sedevacantism there is no longer a hierarchy with a Pope or a hierarchy so impotent (acc. to sedeprivationism) -- due to heresy -- that the Church is in a state of suspended animation or at least its Teaching function is in the concrete here and now. I agree that these bishops and Popes who have adhered to Vatican II, the New Mass, ecuмenism etc... have strayed from the truth but to then conclude that they no longer have authority or it is absolutely impotent (waiting to be filled through conversion) is very difficult to understand. The materialiter/formaliter distinction is a basic philosophical principle but unless one goes through the channels of Bp. Sanborn (and his followers if you will) or the Institute of the Mother of Good Counsel in Italy then the simple soul will (at least objectively) be in heresy or grave error.





    Offline Meg

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    Re: Is Fr. Chazal Sedeprivationist?
    « Reply #33 on: March 20, 2018, 04:03:48 PM »
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  • Hint - I am the tall dark handsome one. Remember me now?

    What was your previous username? Were you banned?
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is Fr. Chazal Sedeprivationist?
    « Reply #34 on: March 20, 2018, 05:44:37 PM »
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  • Father Chazal does raise some interesting points with regard to jurisdiction.

    Can a Pope who has lost teaching authority still excercize jurisdiction (albeit illicitly)?

    Key to sedeprivationism is this notion that a material pope can in fact appoint Cardinals, who can in turn elect another Pope (who could be a full formal pope at that time ... if he doesn't have the impediment to be the Pope).  So at the very least the power of designation must remain.  And that is a key aspect of jurisdiction.

    So, just as these Cardinals appointed by a material Pope can elect a Pope who's a full formal+material Pope, so I hold that a material pope can appoint bishops, who, if they do not have any impediments to the formal exercise of office, can formally exercise the prerogatives of their office.  With this the whole "ecclesiavacantist" problem of the straight sedevacantists evaporates.  Jurisdiction continues in the Church.  This is important, nay, crucial, as straight sedevacantism holds that (non-supplied) jurisdiction has ceased in the Church.


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Is Fr. Chazal Sedeprivationist?
    « Reply #35 on: March 20, 2018, 09:21:02 PM »
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  • Father Chazal does raise some interesting points with regard to jurisdiction.

    Can a Pope who has lost teaching authority still excercize jurisdiction (albeit illicitly)?

    Key to sedeprivationism is this notion that a material pope can in fact appoint Cardinals, who can in turn elect another Pope (who could be a full formal pope at that time ... if he doesn't have the impediment to be the Pope).  So at the very least the power of designation must remain.  And that is a key aspect of jurisdiction.

    So, just as these Cardinals appointed by a material Pope can elect a Pope who's a full formal+material Pope, so I hold that a material pope can appoint bishops, who, if they do not have any impediments to the formal exercise of office, can formally exercise the prerogatives of their office.  With this the whole "ecclesiavacantist" problem of the straight sedevacantists evaporates.  Jurisdiction continues in the Church.  This is important, nay, crucial, as straight sedevacantism holds that (non-supplied) jurisdiction has ceased in the Church.
    First of all, "straight sedevacantists" don't all agree on every point of the theology.  You have John Lane and many like-minded SVs who say that there must be at least one ordinary somewhere in the world.  Go ahead and try to prove him wrong on that one.  That pretty much makes the "ecclesiavacantist" problem evaporate, don't you think?  Of course there are SVs who do posit that all the sees are vacant.  Fr. Cekada famously made that claim on Ignis Ardens in 2012 in a discussion in which John Lane accused him of being a "doctrinal criminal" (essentially accusing him of being a heretic).  But I challenge you to find any pre-Vatican II theologian who makes a claim, express or implied, that it is not possible for all the sees to be vacant.  In fact you will find that Fr Fenton speculated about the possible destruction of all the sees except the Roman See which he held to be indefectible based on Church Fathers and eminent theologians.  Fr. Van Noort also speculated about the destruction of the whole world by a nuclear disaster but still held that the Roman See would have to be spared if not materially at least spiritually in the diaspora of the Bishop of Rome and his flock.  Cardinal Journet speculated about the complete destruction of the College of Cardinals.  Fr. E. Sylvester Berry speculated about apocalyptic scenarios as well.  And Novus Ordo Watch found a great quote from Fr. O'Reilly warning Catholics not to try to put unwarranted limits on God's plan for the Church. But now when we are living in the midst of these speculations come true, suddenly we are ecclesiavacantist heretics for agreeing with pre-Vatican II theologians.  I'm not buying it!
    If we reduce the Church just to the Roman See, we see that it is possible for the Pope to be the lone ordinary in the world.  And we see that his death would not cause the Church to defect.  The Roman clergy would simply need to elect the next pope.  Obviously there would have to be at least one living bishop but he would not need to be an ordinary.  When the pope is elected, he receives universal, ordinary and immediate jurisdiction over the entire Church directly from Our Lord Jesus Christ.  No other ecclesiastical office has that attribute attached to it.  So the resolution of this crisis should be crystal clear.  The clergy of the Roman Catholic Church must elect a CATHOLIC pope.  How we get there is open to debate but let's not accuse each other of being heretics while we work out the details.  Charity covers a multitude of sins.

    Offline Samuel

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    Re: Is Fr. Chazal Sedeprivationist?
    « Reply #36 on: April 01, 2018, 12:58:31 AM »
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  • That's because the Pope is THE problem for Catholics.  NOBODY, no sede-whateverist (as you like to call us), has ever said that these guys are the only modernists or that they invented modernism.  But the problem of how to respond to this crisis hinges upon the status of the Pope.

    I am surprised at the amount of useless chatter and the nonsense you (and many others) keep coming up with.

    The status of the Pope has absolutely nothing to do with the salvation of our soul.

    1. Bergoglio was elected as pope and was universally accepted by the Church as the pope. That makes him the pope as far as I am concerned.

    2. He is obviously speaking and acting like a bad or even heretical pope, which tells me I must avoid him.

    3. All else is for God to sort out. He does not expect the impossible from us, and so neither does He expect us to solve this crisis, only to survive it by keeping the Faith.

    You do NOT please Him by putting labels on everyone around you. It only leads to more divisions and dissensions, and God hates "sowers of dissensions". (Galatians, chapter 5)

    From the Imitation of Christ, by St. Thomas a Kempis:

    What good does it do to speak learnedly about the Trinity if, lacking humility, you displease the Trinity? Indeed it is not learning that makes a man holy and just, but a virtuous life makes him pleasing to God. I would rather feel contrition than know how to define it. For what would it profit us to know the whole Bible by heart and the principles of all the philosophers if we live without grace and the love of God? Vanity of vanities and all is vanity, except to love God and serve Him alone.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Is Fr. Chazal Sedeprivationist?
    « Reply #37 on: April 01, 2018, 07:12:04 AM »
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  • I am surprised at the amount of useless chatter and the nonsense you (and many others) keep coming up with.

    The status of the Pope has absolutely nothing to do with the salvation of our soul.

    1. Bergoglio was elected as pope and was universally accepted by the Church as the pope. That makes him the pope as far as I am concerned.

    2. He is obviously speaking and acting like a bad or even heretical pope, which tells me I must avoid him.

    3. All else is for God to sort out. He does not expect the impossible from us, and so neither does He expect us to solve this crisis, only to survive it by keeping the Faith.

    You do NOT please Him by putting labels on everyone around you. It only leads to more divisions and dissensions, and God hates "sowers of dissensions". (Galatians, chapter 5)

    From the Imitation of Christ, by St. Thomas a Kempis:

    What good does it do to speak learnedly about the Trinity if, lacking humility, you displease the Trinity? Indeed it is not learning that makes a man holy and just, but a virtuous life makes him pleasing to God. I would rather feel contrition than know how to define it. For what would it profit us to know the whole Bible by heart and the principles of all the philosophers if we live without grace and the love of God? Vanity of vanities and all is vanity, except to love God and serve Him alone.

    Save your breath, Samuel:  These people want to see what they want to see, and nothing else.

    Elsewhere, I mentioned an email response I received from Fr. Chazal explicitly denying he was a sedeprivationist, mentioning that his forthcoming book explicitly refutes that position in Chapter 2, and which mentioned that those who were pretending he was a sedeprivationist were dreamers.

    The response?

    Well, somehow it did not settle the matter as it ought to have.

    Let these tormented souls contemplate their navels for hundreds of thread pages, and spend your considerable talents where someone might profit by them (which is certainly not in any thread having anything to do with sedevacantism or flatheadism on CI).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: Is Fr. Chazal Sedeprivationist?
    « Reply #38 on: April 01, 2018, 09:38:35 AM »
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  • What about the email published on the blog that was posted here where Fr. Chazal said he did adhere to the sedeprivationist theory? If one person receives an email saying this and one another, he's going to start losing a lot of credibility. Personally, I look forward to reading his book. I just hope it isn't another one of those that claim that any non-Catholic can be our next spiritual leader and pope.
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline cathman7

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    Re: Is Fr. Chazal Sedeprivationist?
    « Reply #39 on: April 01, 2018, 01:14:27 PM »
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  • I am surprised at the amount of useless chatter and the nonsense you (and many others) keep coming up with.

    The status of the Pope has absolutely nothing to do with the salvation of our soul.

    1. Bergoglio was elected as pope and was universally accepted by the Church as the pope. That makes him the pope as far as I am concerned.

    2. He is obviously speaking and acting like a bad or even heretical pope, which tells me I must avoid him.

    3. All else is for God to sort out. He does not expect the impossible from us, and so neither does He expect us to solve this crisis, only to survive it by keeping the Faith.

    You do NOT please Him by putting labels on everyone around you. It only leads to more divisions and dissensions, and God hates "sowers of dissensions". (Galatians, chapter 5)

    From the Imitation of Christ, by St. Thomas a Kempis:

    What good does it do to speak learnedly about the Trinity if, lacking humility, you displease the Trinity? Indeed it is not learning that makes a man holy and just, but a virtuous life makes him pleasing to God. I would rather feel contrition than know how to define it. For what would it profit us to know the whole Bible by heart and the principles of all the philosophers if we live without grace and the love of God? Vanity of vanities and all is vanity, except to love God and serve Him alone.
    Exactly. The problem is sedevacantists and sedeprivationists want to have a cookie-cutter answer to resolve the Crisis. The organizational structure of the Church is undermined and even among themselves there is countless arguing.