Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Is Fr. Chazal Sedeprivationist?  (Read 5701 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Centroamerica

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2655
  • Reputation: +1641/-438
  • Gender: Male
Re: Is Fr. Chazal Sedeprivationist?
« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2018, 02:19:16 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Sede-this, sede-that?
    I have only ever known sede to mean sedevecantism.  
    All these sede-isms make my head spin...
    Why can't we just be Catholic?
    Even old school priests like Fr. Jenkins uses all these terms. It is the way Catholics in this crisis have termed different positions on the crisis for the purposes of rational thought and discussion. Not really complicated and normal for Catholics fighting for the Faith to do.
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...


    Offline Mr G

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2126
    • Reputation: +1323/-87
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is Fr. Chazal Sedeprivationist?
    « Reply #16 on: March 14, 2018, 02:32:02 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Sede-this, sede-that?
    I have only ever known sede to mean sedevecantism.  
    All these sede-isms make my head spin...
    Why can't we just be Catholic?
    Because Catholics need distinctions to explain how heretics and infiltrators have managed to take over most of the Church and change it to a new religion, yet at the same time say the Catholic Church is Visible, Universal, Apostolic and Holy.


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41860
    • Reputation: +23917/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is Fr. Chazal Sedeprivationist?
    « Reply #17 on: March 14, 2018, 02:57:37 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Because Catholics need distinctions to explain how heretics and infiltrators have managed to take over most of the Church and change it to a new religion, yet at the same time say the Catholic Church is Visible, Universal, Apostolic and Holy.

    Yes, that's the problem.

    AND ... I might add ... Catholics are trying to understand how they can refuse submission/assent to the teaching of a man who claims to be the Vicar of Christ.  No Catholic could EVER lightly break away from the hierarchy.

    Archbishop Lefebvre:
    Quote
    “…a grave problem confronts the conscience and the faith of all Catholics since the beginning of Paul VI’s pontificate: how can a pope who is truly successor of Peter, to whom the assistance of the Holy Ghost has been promised, preside over the most radical and far-reaching destruction of the Church ever known, in so short a time, beyond what any heresiarch has ever achieved? This question must one day be answered…” (Le Figaro, August 4, 1976)

    “Now some priests (even some priests in the Society) say that we Catholics need not worry about what is happening in the Vatican; we have the true sacraments, the true Mass, the true doctrine, so why worry about whether the pope is heretic or an impostor or whatever; it is of no importance to us. But I think that is not true. If any man is important in the Church it is the pope.” (Talk, March 30 and April 18, 1986, text published in The Angelus, July 1986)

    Offline Clemens Maria

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2246
    • Reputation: +1484/-605
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is Fr. Chazal Sedeprivationist?
    « Reply #18 on: March 14, 2018, 03:25:01 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I reformatted things to make it more clear what is being said by whom.

    Dr. Chojnowski:

    Quote
    Here is my email exchange with Fr. Francois Chazal about the position that he articulates in his new upcoming book about Francis, the Papacy, and Fr. Anthony Cekada.
    [Note: Fr. Chazal's kind response. And by the way, unlike the arch laymen of Misters Salza and Siscoe, has been a perfect gentleman in this entire back and forth.]

    Father,

     By sedeplenist [I meant to say sedeprivationist] I take it to mean that a man has been elected legitimately to the papacy but cannot exercise his power or take it on because of the obstacle of heresy. Would you say this applies to Francis or not?

    Fr. Chazal's response:
    Quote
    Yes, in virtue of canon law. 2264.
     That s also the basis for us using supplied jurisdiction (canon 209).
     It has been our policy from day one, and the Archbishop was much criticised for it.
     It is obvious that the Church does not want Catholics to place themselves under heretics, because they will inevitably drag them towards heresy, or at least compromise. That s also the whole debate since 2012.
     i really dont care if they call me a sedevacantist if i hold this principle.
     fc+

    My comment: I don't think Fr. Chazal is admitting to be a sedeprivationist nor a sedevacantist.  But his formulation does sound like the SP position.

    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13823
    • Reputation: +5568/-865
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is Fr. Chazal Sedeprivationist?
    « Reply #19 on: March 14, 2018, 03:46:32 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!1
  • Sede-this, sede-that?
    I have only ever known sede to mean sedevecantism.  
    All these sede-isms make my head spin...
    Why can't we just be Catholic?
    Because unless there are various, erroneous groups, professing their own unique [dogmatic?] beliefs while all claiming to profess the same Catholic truths, except of course for their own unique beliefs, there would be no division. The truth is that sedewhateverism causes division among the faithful.  

    This has always been the most successful of tactics that comes from the devil, he does it to promote iniquity among the faithful, this tactic is commonly known as "Divide and Conquer".

    That's why, even amongst ourselves, we can't just be Catholic.
     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline cathman7

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 815
    • Reputation: +882/-23
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is Fr. Chazal Sedeprivationist?
    « Reply #20 on: March 14, 2018, 04:52:18 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • What I am not understanding -- and please bear with me for repeating myself -- is how can the Church Christ founded be in such a state that no formal authority exists anymore. And if that is the case in what way can this formal authority return? It seems it cannot. How can this possibly be the true position that a Catholic must hold? It is far too abstract and yes I have read Fr. Sanborn's explanation of the thesis.

    Offline Mr G

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2126
    • Reputation: +1323/-87
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is Fr. Chazal Sedeprivationist?
    « Reply #21 on: March 16, 2018, 11:24:15 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • http://radtradthomist.chojnowski.me/2018/03/resistance-is-best-name-fr-chazal.html  UPDATE

    Dear Friends,

    Please. I just seek to clarify the theoretical situation to see where we all stand. I used the wrong term -- sedeplenist-- but the actual position that I asked Father to comment on was Sedeprivationism.He had been called a Sedeprivationist on Cathinfo and I wanted so see what he thought of that designation. I did point out on the blog that I made a mistake with the term . I will also put up Father's recent clarification and commentary. 

    Let me say that I very much admire Father for trying to follow the truth where ever it leads. 
    I just wonder if sedeimpoundism and Sedeprivationism is a distinction without a difference. 

    Yours ,

    Peter Chojnowski 

    Now Fr. Chazal's response:

    Dear Mr Chojnowski,

    Perhaps some sede is trying to drown the fish in the water. 

    As a sedeimpoundinvirtueofcanon2264ist the side discussion is interesting nevertheless. What they call sedeprivationism, the denial that heretics have a licit, if not valid jurisdiction, isn't what Archbishop Lefebvre taught us. Of course ignorant people are still under the jurisdiction of their diocese, having still valid marriages and confessions, amidst other invalid and sacrilegious ones. Once a person s invincible ignorance is dispelled, the use of novus ordo jurisdiction is at once illicit, i.e., it is an objective mortal sin to use it.

    Now let s go back to where we were: What the sedes need to answer, after teaching it for so long, is whether all catholic theologians concurr unanimously on the question of the heretical Pope. Bishop williamson picked up this question in his preface as well. 

    So we ask the sedevacantists; while they deflect the discussion (in an interesting direction this time); if they can answer the questions:
    Resistance is the best term to encase our position, and that term has stuck, while all other labels have never lived very long. 
    the term sedeplenist is incomplete, just like sedeprivationist, because neither of the terms includes the crucial distinction. Caiphas is neither deprived and neither to be heeded to.

     This is because the jurisdiction of a heretic; while it instantly disappears quoad liceitatem; only disappears quoad validitatem after a sentence. 
    Before then, there is a valid but illicit jurisdiction, of which none of those who are aware of the heresy of the holder of office, can make use of.

    Throughout the years dioceses and popes have been abusing their jurisdiction or using it for evil intent.
    Those who separated themselves from day one will not be blamed at the end of this crisis, nay they were even granted jurisdiction in a supplied form.
    we cannot place under Rome the work of Archbishop Lefebvre.

    Catholics who are aware francis is a heretic and still submit to his jurisdiction are in a state of illegality. Catholics who were in a state of security and return to place themselves under the power of heretics are canonical fools.

    fc+




     

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41860
    • Reputation: +23917/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is Fr. Chazal Sedeprivationist?
    « Reply #22 on: March 16, 2018, 11:50:24 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • Ah, so yet another NEW position:  sedeimpoundinvirtueofcanon2264ist

    Let's call it sedeimpoundism for short (since Father coined the term) ... or sedequarantinism.  I'd leave out the reference to Canon 2264 (or any other Canon), since Popes are not subject to Canon Law.

    Father Chazal now clarifies that they have no teaching authority, but still have valid but illicit jurisdiction.

    I actually like this.  It's not too different than my own spin on sedeprivationism, as I called it, where I believe that jurisdiction can be passed on through material popes and formally exercised by anyone he designates to have it without an impediment to do so.

    I may just have been converted to sede-impoundism.  [I have never been a PURE sedeprivationist but closer to this anyway.]



    Offline Meg

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6173
    • Reputation: +3147/-2941
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Is Fr. Chazal Sedeprivationist?
    « Reply #23 on: March 16, 2018, 12:01:26 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Catholics who are aware francis is a heretic and still submit to his jurisdiction are in a state of illegality. Catholics who were in a state of security and return to place themselves under the power of heretics are canonical fools.

    fc+




     

    Did +ABL ever really state the above? I mean, did he say that Catholics are aware that JP2 (was) a heretic and yet still submit to his jurisdiction were state of illegality?

    I know that the SSPX used to maintain that the Novus Ordo mass was valid but illicit, and that it was at least venially sinful to attend it. But I don't recall that +ABL or the SSPX said that the Pope himself is a heretic.

    +ABL didn't focus so much on the Pope as he did the entire rotten modernist conciliar church. The modernist popes are just part of the problem. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Centroamerica

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2655
    • Reputation: +1641/-438
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is Fr. Chazal Sedeprivationist?
    « Reply #24 on: March 16, 2018, 12:31:36 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Did +ABL ever really state the above? I mean, did he say that Catholics are aware that JP2 (was) a heretic and yet still submit to his jurisdiction were state of illegality?

    I know that the SSPX used to maintain that the Novus Ordo mass was valid but illicit, and that it was at least venially sinful to attend it. But I don't recall that +ABL or the SSPX said that the Pope himself is a heretic.

    +ABL didn't focus so much on the Pope as he did the entire rotten modernist conciliar church. The modernist popes are just part of the problem.
    Pretty sure he called him an anti-Christ and said most of the Novus Ordo sacraments are invalid. 
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline Meg

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6173
    • Reputation: +3147/-2941
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Is Fr. Chazal Sedeprivationist?
    « Reply #25 on: March 16, 2018, 12:32:30 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Pretty sure he called him an anti-Christ and said most of the Novus Ordo sacraments are invalid.

    That doesn't answer the question. And I don't think that he said that the novus ordo sacraments are invalid. I believe that he said that they are valid but illicit. That's not the same thing. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline Meg

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6173
    • Reputation: +3147/-2941
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Is Fr. Chazal Sedeprivationist?
    « Reply #26 on: March 16, 2018, 12:38:19 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • +ABL said toward the end of his life that Rome is in apostasy. But he didn't single out the Pope. For +ABL, the problem with modernism was a systemic problem. Trads nowadays focus mainly on the Pope, as if the current modernist pope invented modernism. But no, modernism has been around for a long time now, and JP2 was every bit a modernist as Francis. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41860
    • Reputation: +23917/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is Fr. Chazal Sedeprivationist?
    « Reply #27 on: March 16, 2018, 12:59:48 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!1
  • +ABL said toward the end of his life that Rome is in apostasy. But he didn't single out the Pope. For +ABL, the problem with modernism was a systemic problem. Trads nowadays focus mainly on the Pope, as if the current modernist pope invented modernism. But no, modernism has been around for a long time now, and JP2 was every bit a modernist as Francis.

    That's because the Pope is THE problem for Catholics.  NOBODY, no sede-whateverist (as you like to call us), has ever said that these guys are the only modernists or that they invented modernism.  But the problem of how to respond to this crisis hinges upon the status of the Pope.

    Offline Cantarella

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 7782
    • Reputation: +4577/-579
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Is Fr. Chazal Sedeprivationist?
    « Reply #28 on: March 16, 2018, 08:59:01 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • I don't think the situation with Caiphas supports the R&R/Resistance position.  Our Lord was tried 4 times.  1. Annas 2. Caiphas 3. Pilate 4. Herod and finally back to Pilate.  He refused to speak anything to Annas and Herod.  Presumably this is because neither of them had any jurisdiction.  But He did answer Caiphas who was the legitimate High Priest at the time.  And He did answer Pilate who was the legitimate Roman governor of the territory.  So if the Conciliar popes have any jurisdiction whatsoever, then we as members of the Church are legally bound to respect and submit to their authority.  So that is a difference between the SP position and Fr. Chazal's position.  SP theory posits that the loss of the formal office causes the total loss of authority.

    Recently I read an interview to Mons. Guerard Des Lauries made in May, 1988 and he makes a very good point here (Google Translation from French):

    Quote
    That there is in the earth a person who is the Vicar of Christ, to whom every faithful of Jesus Christ must submit, is a truth of Faith. Knowing who that person is immediately determines the exercise of the Faith, and consequently constitutes a question with respect to which every faithful is obliged to take a position. It is a divine law.

    That there be in the bosom of the militant Church an ordinary universal Magisterium that is infallible, is a truth of Faith. Every faithful must profess it and must denounce the error of those who deny it. It is a divine law.

    Basically, knowing WHO the Vicar of Christ is on earth comes with certain obligations to a Catholic. Personal submission to his authority is one of them. The action of knowing who is he, is important. There is a contradiction if as a Roman Catholic, you know who the Pope is, but still refuse personal submission to him, (which by the way is necessary for salvation).
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Centroamerica

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2655
    • Reputation: +1641/-438
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is Fr. Chazal Sedeprivationist?
    « Reply #29 on: March 16, 2018, 09:12:16 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • That doesn't answer the question. And I don't think that he said that the novus ordo sacraments are invalid. I believe that he said that they are valid but illicit. That's not the same thing.
    Sorry, he said they are all doubtful, which pretty much means the same thing because Catholics are prohibited under pain of mortal sin from receiving doubtful sacraments. He did use the word all and did say doubtful. Again, as for reception by the laity, there is no difference between doubtful and invalid. So that’s that. 
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...