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Author Topic: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?  (Read 440532 times)

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Offline TKGS

Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
« Reply #1120 on: May 19, 2018, 01:53:14 PM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on May 19, 2018, 01:15:10 PM
You are not the Church.  You are not a Roman official.  You are not authorized to say what V2 binds or doesn’t bind.  Your contention that V2 is binding on the faithful is a misapplication of many “high level” principles with an erroneous conclusion that is directly at odds with EVERY MAJOR V2 explanation by Roman officials. Your view is not based on facts, but incorrect logic and emotion.
Of course, if you look at what the Conciliar Church says, what the Roman officials say, what laws and docuмents the Vatican has promulgated since Vatican 2, and the teaching of all the Conciliar bishops throughout the world, you will note that it is actually your view that is based solely on wishful thinking.
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Offline trad123

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Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
« Reply #1121 on: May 19, 2018, 03:53:48 PM »
Paul VI

https://w2.vatican.va/content/paul-vi/it/speeches/1976/docuмents/hf_p-vi_spe_19760524_concistoro.html

Using Google Translate


Quote
a) On the one hand, here are those who, on the pretext of greater fidelity to the Church and the Magisterium, systematically reject the teachings of the Council itself, its application and the resulting reforms, its gradual application by the Apostolic See and of the Episcopal Conferences, under our authority, desired by Christ. The discredit on the authority of the Church is cast in the name of a Tradition, of which only respectfully and verbally attest; the faithful depart from the bonds of obedience to the See of Peter as to their legitimate Bishops; today's authority is rejected, in the name of yesterday's. And the fact is all the more serious, since the opposition we are talking about is not only encouraged by some priests, but led by a Bishop, however always venerated by Us, Monsignor Marcel Lefebvre.

It is so painful to notice it: but how can we fail to see in such an attitude - whatever may be the intentions of these people - to put oneself outside obedience and communion with the Successor of Peter and therefore of the Church?

Since this is, unfortunately, the logical consequence, when it is claimed to be preferable to disobey under the pretext of keeping intact one's own faith, to work in its own way for the preservation of the Catholic Church, while at the same time denying effective obedience. And it is said openly! It is denied to state that the Second Vatican Council is not binding; that faith would also be in danger because of the Post-Council reforms and guidelines, which one has to disobey to preserve certain traditions. Which traditions? It is this group, and not the Pope, not the Episcopal College, not the Ecuмenical Council, which determines which among the innumerable traditions must be considered as the norm of faith! As you see, venerable Brothers, this attitude stands as a judge of that divine will, which has placed Peter and His legitimate successors as Head of the Church to confirm the brothers in the faith, and to feed the universal flock (Cf. 32, Io . 21, 15 ff.), Which established him as guarantor and custodian of the deposit of the Faith.

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Offline drew

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Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
« Reply #1122 on: May 19, 2018, 04:32:10 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on May 18, 2018, 08:33:04 PM
O'Regan had it basically right ... and you only made a fool of yourself in that exchange.

Ladislaus,

Thanks for this admission of agreement with an eminent spokesman for Conservative Catholicism who unabashedly believes and promotes the pope as his rule of faith.  Papolatry is just another form of idolatry.  There really is not a dime's worth of difference between the presuppositions and logical conclusions of Conservative Catholics and the S&Sers.
 
But there is a moral difference. I will make a prediction.  Far greater percentage of Conservative Catholics will come to the recognition of their error and turn to the immutable truth of Catholic Dogma as their rule of faith than will S&Sers.  For even now, Conservative Catholics are questioning these erroneous assumptions to rethink the problem of making the pope the rule of faith.  They are open to the consideration of necessity of grounding their faith upon the immutable revealed truthd of Catholic Dogma.  The S&Sers on the other hand have hardened into an obstinacy of spirit that willfully turns against Dogma because it condemns what they have done.

You are in a church of your own making the lacks necessary attributes of the Catholic Church, and the longer this goes on, the less you will care. 

Drew
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Offline drew

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Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
« Reply #1123 on: May 19, 2018, 04:51:05 PM »
Quote from: trad123 on May 19, 2018, 03:53:48 PM
Paul VI

https://w2.vatican.va/content/paul-vi/it/speeches/1976/docuмents/hf_p-vi_spe_19760524_concistoro.html

Using Google Translate

trad123,

There were two serious problems with Archbishop Lefebvre that made the defense of the Catholic faith impossible and have contributed to the demise of the SSPX as a voice for Catholic tradition:  One, he did not hold Dogma as the rule of faith, and Two, he regarded all immemorial ecclesiastical traditions as matters of mere discipline.  Thus Paul VI could claim that he was opposing his version of discipline against the the new version which the Church is at liberty to bind and loose.   

If the resistance is to have any success whatsoever, it has to recognize these errors and structure opposition on the immutable truths of Catholic Dogma.  Truth is the only weapon the faithful possess against the abuse and perversion of authority. 

Drew
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Offline forlorn

Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
« Reply #1124 on: May 19, 2018, 06:28:55 PM »
Quote from: drew on May 19, 2018, 04:51:05 PM
trad123,

There were two serious problems with Archbishop Lefebvre that made the defense of the Catholic faith impossible and have contributed to the demise of the SSPX as a voice for Catholic tradition:  One, he did not hold Dogma as the rule of faith, and Two, he regarded all immemorial ecclesiastical traditions as matters of mere discipline.  Thus Paul VI could claim that he was opposing his version of discipline against the the new version which the Church is at liberty to bind and loose.    

If the resistance is to have any success whatsoever, it has to recognize these errors and structure opposition on the immutable truths of Catholic Dogma.  Truth is the only weapon the faithful possess against the abuse and perversion of authority.  

Drew
The Pope does have the authority to bind and loose new disciplines and rites, and Catholics cannot call anything the Church does in its masses as calls to impiety. 
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