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Author Topic: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?  (Read 318664 times)

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Offline Clemens Maria

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Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
« Reply #1080 on: May 17, 2018, 09:05:24 AM »
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    • According to the CE article (Rule of Faith) dogma is the proximate rule of faith, specifically the inanimate proximate rule of faith.  The Magisterium is the animate proximate rule of faith.  The two go together and are inseparable.  That the Magisterium holds to dogma is taken for granted.  Which is an indication that a manifest heretic being a member of the hierarchy would be an absurdity.  The big question is how do we identify the hierarchy.  We are responsible for that.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #1081 on: May 17, 2018, 09:09:41 AM »
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    When I say that Ecunemical Councils approved by the legitimate successor of St. Peter are infallible, I am not saying that they are necessarily dogmatic; or irreversible.
    Absolutely nonsensical statement.  Absolutely wrong.  Absolutely BAD THEOLOGY.  Infallibility applies to faith/morals.  It ONLY applies to faith/morals.  The fruit of infallibility is dogma, so ALL infallible statements ARE NECESSARILY dogmatic.  Since they are dogmatic, and since infallibility CANNOT EVER ERR, in any way, infallible statements ARE IRREVERSIBLE.

    So your assertion that infallible statements are "not necessarily dogmatic or irreversible" is so absolutely wrong and theologically erroneous that I'm appalled.

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    Ecunemical Councils ratified by a Pope are infallible, and they are binding to all Christians. That means they are applicable to Catholics of all rites, they do not err against the Faith and they cannot contradict the Faith even when they deal with disciplinary matters which potentially could be reversible in time. Ecunemical Councils represent the Universal Church which has the assistance of the Holy Ghost.
    Another mix of illogical statements.  So you say an infallible statement is binding on Christians, they do not err and cannot contradict the Faith, but they can be reversible in time?  ??  ??  So what was infallible in the 1500s could be reversed in our day?  So your're saying truth can change.  ?? ??

    (I know you don't believe that truth can change, but that's what your logic means, and this is due to your lack of understanding of infallibility and discipline and all the matters in between.  You need to stop posting until you go read more on these subjects.  You are VERY badly misinformed.)

    Infallibility ONLY deals with faith/morals.  Its statements can never be reversed, changed, edited, etc.  An infallible statement is true always and everywhere.

    And disciplinary matters HAVE NOTHING TO DO with infallibility.  Outside of faith/morals infallibility IS NOT USED, CANNOT BE USED, HAS NEVER BEEN USED.  Go read Vatican I.
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    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #1082 on: May 17, 2018, 09:37:05 AM »
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    • Quote from: Cantarella on May 16, 2018, 10:38:21 PM
    English is not my first language; but you already know that.


    That's the reason I asked. English is also my second language but I only know such terminology in English since I came to the U.S.as a teenager. Since you have used the term a lot I thought you may have a reason and give you a chance to explain it. No malice intended.
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    The love of God be your motivation, the will of God your guiding principle, the glory of God your goal.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #1083 on: May 17, 2018, 10:18:46 AM »
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    • Quote from: Clemens Maria on May 17, 2018, 09:05:24 AM
    According to the CE article (Rule of Faith) dogma is the proximate rule of faith, specifically the inanimate proximate rule of faith.  The Magisterium is the animate proximate rule of faith.  The two go together and are inseparable.  That the Magisterium holds to dogma is taken for granted.  Which is an indication that a manifest heretic being a member of the hierarchy would be an absurdity.  The big question is how do we identify the hierarchy.  We are responsible for that.
    This is correct. The two go together and are inseparable, but to say, "That the Magisterium holds to dogma is taken for granted" - is not true. That would only be true if the Magisterium was the pope, hierarchy or anything other than teachings.

    I have posted many times what the Magisterium is as explained by Pope Pius IX, and yes, the two go together and are inseparable, as long as you have the correct understanding of what the Magisterium is.

    One more time, here is Pope Pius IX's explanation of what the Magisterium is:
    Magisterium:

    "...all that has been handed down as divinely revealed by the ordinary teaching authority of the entire Church spread over the whole world, and which, for this reason, Catholic theologians, with a universal and constant consent, regard as being of the faith." - Pope Pius IX, Tuas Libenter
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #1084 on: May 17, 2018, 11:59:15 AM »
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    Councils pronouncements can deal with either dogmatic matters (which are unchangeable and true for all times) and / or disciplinary matters (which can be renewed or updated because they are temporary).
    Yes, agree.

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    They cannot err either in dogma or discipline because they have the living assistance of the Holy Ghost until the end of time.  
    No!
    The promise of infallibility does not extend to disciplinary/governmental aspects of the Church, only matters of Faith/Morals, as CLEARLY outlined in V1.  Only when the pope fulfills the 4 conditions of V1, (one of which is that IT IS A MATTER OF FAITH AND MORALS, and the other is that the pope INTENDS TO TEACH CLEARLY ON SUCH A MATTER) is something infallible.

    Matters of discipline are not infallible and never have been, or else infallibility would be meaningless, since disciplinary matters can be updated/changed.  Infallibility only deals with TEACHINGS of the Faith/dogma.  Discipline deals with govt rules, church law, and certain aspects of the liturgy.  Discipline is decided by the church hierarchy and can err, magnificently and unfortunately, as history has shown.
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    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #1085 on: May 17, 2018, 01:14:17 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on May 17, 2018, 11:59:15 AM
    Yes, agree.
    No!
    The promise of infallibility does not extend to disciplinary/governmental aspects of the Church, only matters of Faith/Morals, as CLEARLY outlined in V1.  Only when the pope fulfills the 4 conditions of V1, (one of which is that IT IS A MATTER OF FAITH AND MORALS, and the other is that the pope INTENDS TO TEACH CLEARLY ON SUCH A MATTER) is something infallible.

    Matters of discipline are not infallible and never have been, or else infallibility would be meaningless, since disciplinary matters can be updated/changed.  Infallibility only deals with TEACHINGS of the Faith/dogma.  Discipline deals with govt rules, church law, and certain aspects of the liturgy.  Discipline is decided by the church hierarchy and can err, magnificently and unfortunately, as history has shown.
    Can you think of any instance prior to V2 where the Magisterium led the Church into error (even in some doctrine which was non-infallible)?
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #1086 on: May 17, 2018, 01:58:59 PM »
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    • There is no such thing as a non-infallible doctrine.

    Church discipline is man-made, it has nothing to do with doctrine, hence it is never perfect and can change based on the time period or needs of the faithful.  For example, the communion fast used to start at midnight the night before mass.  Since mass times are not 'normal' due to the shortage of priests, the church changed the communion fast to 3 hrs then to 1, because She realized people could not fast all day if they were going to a noon mass or an evening one.  Is that wrong or right?  It's neither.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #1087 on: May 17, 2018, 03:00:11 PM »
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    • Infallibility has to do with faith/morals.  It does not have to do with discipline.  If you disagree, give me an example.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #1088 on: May 17, 2018, 03:05:18 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on May 17, 2018, 02:30:00 PM
    Well, if you say so.  I was waiting for your opinion on it before pronouncing it good and Catholic.
    I emphasized what was correct in his post so as to demonstrate what was his obviously wrong understanding of what the Magisterium is. If the two (dogma and magisterium) go together and are inseparable, which is correct, then saying that  only assumes that the Magisterium holds to dogma is to be taken for granted, is one heck of a confused thing for anyone to say - and they would never say such a confused thing if they had the correct understanding of the Magisterium.  

    As you can tell, the obvious truth as I presented it to him evades him as completely as it evades you, because in his very next post, he asks Pax if he knew of any other instance that "the Magisterium led the Church into error". His needle is as stuck as any sede.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #1089 on: May 17, 2018, 08:13:40 PM »
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    • All of your examples only deal with doctrine indirectly, and many times not at all, and they don’t TEACH anything, so 95% of the time, no, these are not infallible.  


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    These universal disciplines are infallible but reformable.
    Something infallible cannot be reformable.  That’s impossible.  
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    Offline trad123

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #1090 on: May 18, 2018, 12:02:12 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on May 17, 2018, 03:00:11 PM
    Infallibility has to do with faith/morals.  It does not have to do with discipline.  If you disagree, give me an example.

    Mediator Dei, Pope Pius XII, 1947

    http://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius12/p12media.htm


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    46. On this subject We judge it Our duty to rectify an attitude with which you are doubtless familiar, Venerable Brethren. We refer to the error and fallacious reasoning of those who have claimed that the sacred liturgy is a kind of proving ground for the truths to be held of faith, meaning by this that the Church is obliged to declare such a doctrine sound when it is found to have produced fruits of piety and sanctity through the sacred rites of the liturgy, and to reject it otherwise. Hence the epigram, “Lex orandi, lex credendi” — the law for prayer is the law for faith.

    47. But this is not what the Church teaches and enjoins. The worship she offers to God, all good and great, is a continuous profession of Catholic faith and a continuous exercise of hope and charity, as Augustine puts it tersely. “God is to be worshipped,” he says, “by faith, hope and charity.”[44] In the sacred liturgy we profess the Catholic faith explicitly and openly, not only by the celebration of the mysteries, and by offering the holy sacrifice and administering the sacraments, but also by saying or singing the credo or Symbol of the faith — it is indeed the sign and badge, as it were, of the Christian — along with other texts, and likewise by the reading of holy scripture, written under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost. The entire liturgy, therefore, has the Catholic faith for its content, inasmuch as it bears public witness to the faith of the Church.

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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

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    Offline trad123

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #1091 on: May 18, 2018, 12:42:05 AM »
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    • Quote from: Clemens Maria on May 17, 2018, 01:14:17 PM
    Can you think of any instance prior to V2 where the Magisterium led the Church into error (even in some doctrine which was non-infallible)?


    Now we're talking. Where has the Church given us evil, even in non-infallible circuмstances? There is no precedent.
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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #1092 on: May 18, 2018, 08:32:29 AM »
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    Upon confirmation by the Pope, a General Council's decrees are binding on all Catholics.
    So what?  Doesn't mean they are infallible.

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    It is true that discipline is man-made and can be changed. However, and this is very important, the Authority to enact discipline is not man-made, but given by God.
    Irrelevant.

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    Pope Gregory XVI, Quo graviora of 1833:
    Irrelevant.
    Quote
    Mediator Dei, Pope Pius XII, 1947
    Irrelevant.


    Infallibility ONLY covers TEACHINGS.  It only covers ARTICLES of FAITH.  This is specificially and precisely explained by V1.  You guys are taking a simple doctrine, infallibility, and complicating it.  
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    Offline cassini

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #1093 on: May 18, 2018, 09:22:19 AM »
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    • Quote from: trad123 on May 18, 2018, 12:42:05 AM

    Now we're talking. Where has the Church given us evil, even in non-infallible circuмstances? There is no precedent.

    You must be joking. The Church led the flock into error in 1616 by defining a heliocentric reading of the Bible was formal heresy,

    or

    the Church led the flock into error in 1835 when popes allowed the flock to read and believe in a heliocentrism and that the Bible can be read with an interpretation contrary to the unanimous opinion of all the Fathers.

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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #1094 on: May 18, 2018, 09:45:59 AM »
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      Pax declares Papal Teaching that the Church cannot permit anything to the detriment of souls "Irrelevant".  
    It's irrelevant to the question at hand.  
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